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Old 08-06-2017, 07:49 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by tacoma34 View Post
I do not see the logic here. The perceived process is a big part of the value though, right? I would be very upset and would classify these as counterfeit. These seem a lot like the "Vega" art things that flood eBay.

This guys technique is only deception. I know you are not okay with his practice, as you stated but I don't understand how owners of his sketches should be content finding out about this?
I understand your perspective. This is my thought, from kind of a philosophical perspective...

You like the image, not the process that was used to create the image. The card is still 1/1, and the card is still art. These things are true even if you don't like the process used to create the card.

Given the option of pulling a whip/monkey by Waterhouse or one of these, which would you enjoy more? Is the Waterhouse preferable because it was 100% hand drawn? They are now both essentially worthless, which would you prefer to pull out of a box?

If you only liked it because it was valuable, that is a different kind of problem...

Again, not defending the deceit.
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Old 08-06-2017, 08:00 PM   #127
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I understand your perspective. This is my thought, from kind of a philosophical perspective...



You like the image, not the process that was used to create the image. The card is still 1/1, and the card is still art. These things are true even if you don't like the process used to create the card.



Given the option of pulling a whip/monkey by Waterhouse or one of these, which would you enjoy more? Is the Waterhouse preferable because it was 100% hand drawn? They are now both essentially worthless, which would you prefer to pull out of a box?



If you only liked it because it was valuable, that is a different kind of problem...



Again, not defending the deceit.


Difference is, I could print the image I liked myself. I paid him to create a commission of an image by hand. Of course I liked the image, that's why I used it for the source.

The reason people are unhappy now is because none of it is original, like if he made a sketch via adobe illustrator and printed them onto cards, at least it's still original art. Here he just does what topps does and printed trading cards.

You're telling me if you bought a Picasso and it was a reprinted poster you'd be fine with it?


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Old 08-06-2017, 08:26 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Spider-Fan View Post
If you are happy with the card in your hand, stay ignorant and happy.
What about forged signatures? Ignorance is bliss until you find out you wasted a bunch of money.


You know, if someone just admits they print pictures and altered them it may help with acceptance. It's not a whole lot different than what Andy Warhol did. Art is subjective, and there are plenty of artists who make a living manipulating existing imagery.
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Old 08-06-2017, 08:46 PM   #129
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It does seem like more than just this artist uses their printer to aid in their "sketch" cards. For example, another artist was pointed out in the CAP 75th thread for doing something similar to the artist in this thread. I guess the big difference in this case is the artist is bending over backwards (and failing horribly) to pretend he is drawing everything free hand. At any rate, this thread is an interesting read. Buyer beware and all that.
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Old 08-06-2017, 08:47 PM   #130
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I'm not responding to posts where people are mad because they were deceived. That's absolutely justified and has nothing to do with what I'm saying.
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Old 08-06-2017, 08:49 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Spider-Fan View Post
Relevance of his profession?

If he wants to be personally insulted by this guys practice, that is his prerogative. That has nothing to do with me.

Maybe my point isn't being understood so let me write it out as simply as I can.

If you own one of these cards and enjoyed it two weeks ago, you should enjoy it today. The card hasn't changed. All that has changed is your knowledge of the process used to make it.

As previously stated, I'm not defending a guy who is lying. If he is lying, he obviously thinks he is doing something wrong. If he didn't, he would say "this is how my cards are made and if you don't like it then don't buy them."
So if you were a vegetarian and someone served you a veggies burger AND YOU LIKED IT, but later find it was made with cow, you should still like? How it's made, makes a big difference.

As for his profession...he draws people, so someone doing what this guy does would be irritating. My point tho was you said he didn't know stuff because he hasn't been in the hobby long enough.
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Old 08-06-2017, 09:00 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Spider-Fan View Post
I understand your perspective. This is my thought, from kind of a philosophical perspective...

You like the image, not the process that was used to create the image. The card is still 1/1, and the card is still art. These things are true even if you don't like the process used to create the card.

Given the option of pulling a whip/monkey by Waterhouse or one of these, which would you enjoy more? Is the Waterhouse preferable because it was 100% hand drawn? They are now both essentially worthless, which would you prefer to pull out of a box?

If you only liked it because it was valuable, that is a different kind of problem...

Again, not defending the deceit.
Honestly I'd rather have a waterhouse. I'm not trying to be facetious. At least it would be real. I could print out the other picture and glue it to a card myself. It's not about the value, it's about the talent that it takes to do those things. I'm amazed when someone can perfectly capture a likness. Looking at a reference photo and having it actually look good do not always go hand in hand. It takes a real eye to be able to do it. And I appreciate that talent. I appreciate the hard work that went into it. I appreciate the amazing tiny details of being able to do it on such a small scale. Printing it off cheapens the whole thing. Not just value wise, but emotionally, artistically, everything. What he's doing would be an aceo at best. Those can be madef anything, anyway, they can be reprints, etc. He's not doing a sketch card tho.
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Old 08-06-2017, 09:02 PM   #133
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So if you were a vegetarian and someone served you a veggies burger AND YOU LIKED IT, but later find it was made with cow, you should still like? How it's made, makes a big difference.

As for his profession...he draws people, so someone doing what this guy does would be irritating. My point tho was you said he didn't know stuff because he hasn't been in the hobby long enough.
I didnt say he didnt know "stuff", i specifically said he didnt know the history of people reacting when they learn certain artists processes.

And to your example, just because they are a vegetarian doesnt mean they cant like the way beef tastes. I know a kosher Jewish person that unknowingly ate a dish made with bacon. He loved it. He wasn't happy when he founded out it was made with bacon, but he didn't suddenly decide the dish didn't taste good.
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Old 08-06-2017, 10:48 PM   #134
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So people now need to be careful when selling on ebay with all this mess. I believe a buyer can return a card if its found out its not a sketch card, by definition hand drawn from scratch, but copied and altered onto the card, even its a card from a topps or upper deck type release.
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Old 08-06-2017, 11:14 PM   #135
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So people now need to be careful when selling on ebay with all this mess. I believe a buyer can return a card if its found out its not a sketch card, by definition hand drawn from scratch, but copied and altered onto the card, even its a card from a topps or upper deck type release.
Exactly why I pulled my two listings for this losers "sketches" down off eBay when I came across this thread
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Old 08-06-2017, 11:32 PM   #136
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I didnt say he didnt know "stuff", i specifically said he didnt know the history of people reacting when they learn certain artists processes.

And to your example, just because they are a vegetarian doesnt mean they cant like the way beef tastes. I know a kosher Jewish person that unknowingly ate a dish made with bacon. He loved it. He wasn't happy when he founded out it was made with bacon, but he didn't suddenly decide the dish didn't taste good.
Except he isn't creating anything!

He's walking out of the kitchen, handing you the frozen burger patty and saying here's a dish I cooked for you when you bought the frozen meat to begin with.

People who pulled the sketch like it because they thought it was hand drawn, not because it simply looks exactly like an existing image. If they pulled the same card as an insert they'd say "neat" and toss it aside most likely. It's the idea it was handmade that made it good. Knowing it's not is what ruins it because he doesn't have any artistic style, it's just movie stills with a filter on them.

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Old 08-07-2017, 08:31 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Spider-Fan View Post
That's absolutely justified and has nothing to do with what I'm saying.
I am having trouble understanding exactly what you are saying because it sounds like you believe people should be happy with forged art because they were happy with it prior to knowing it was forged.

How would you feel if you had an Amazing Fantasy 15 that you paid big bucks for, and find out today that it's a worthless reprint? I mean, you loved it yesterday and the images are all the same. What's the difference? Just because you paid $15k for it thinking it was original shouldn't change anything....at least according to you.
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Old 08-07-2017, 08:38 AM   #138
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any chance someone can post the pdf again, I didn't get a chance to see it before it was removed
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Old 08-07-2017, 12:52 PM   #139
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any chance someone can post the pdf again, I didn't get a chance to see it before it was removed
I have it on my pc here at work, but it's too big to upload. not sure exactly how I can get it on here. give me a few or pm me a good email addy, though it might be too big for that too.
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Old 08-07-2017, 12:57 PM   #140
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OK all, try this link for the PDF

PDF Link
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Old 08-07-2017, 12:59 PM   #141
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OK all, try this link for the PDF

PDF Link
I hope you don't mind but I'm just going to put this quote in the first post so people can find it.
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Old 08-07-2017, 03:11 PM   #142
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I am having trouble understanding exactly what you are saying because it sounds like you believe people should be happy with forged art because they were happy with it prior to knowing it was forged.

How would you feel if you had an Amazing Fantasy 15 that you paid big bucks for, and find out today that it's a worthless reprint? I mean, you loved it yesterday and the images are all the same. What's the difference? Just because you paid $15k for it thinking it was original shouldn't change anything....at least according to you.
When you are able to separate the art from the deceit, I'm happy to discuss further. Your use of forgery tells me that you negate these creations as artwork. I disagree. Your example bares no relevance on the topic.
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Old 08-07-2017, 03:27 PM   #143
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When you are able to separate the art from the deceit, I'm happy to discuss further. Your use of forgery tells me that you negate these creations as artwork. I disagree. Your example bares no relevance on the topic.
Jesus Christ, he's printing off someone else's work and pasting it on card stock. In what world is that art?!?!

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Old 08-07-2017, 03:27 PM   #144
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When you are able to separate the art from the deceit, I'm happy to discuss further. Your use of forgery tells me that you negate these creations as artwork. I disagree. Your example bares no relevance on the topic.
How it putting an Adobe filter on an existing image creating art? If so, Adobe is the artist not this clown haha

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Old 08-07-2017, 03:29 PM   #145
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When you are able to separate the art from the deceit, I'm happy to discuss further. Your use of forgery tells me that you negate these creations as artwork. I disagree. Your example bares no relevance on the topic.
Gee, you tell people to not be so closed-minded but you absolutely refuse to see why some people don't view this as artwork and continue to talk down to those same people.
Art is subjective, I get it. But don't tell people how they should feel about this. If someone who owns a "sketch" by him doesn't want/like it anymore after finding out what he did, that is their prerogative. You are welcome to buy the cards from them...
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Old 08-07-2017, 03:46 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Spider-Fan View Post
I understand your perspective. This is my thought, from kind of a philosophical perspective...

You like the image, not the process that was used to create the image. The card is still 1/1, and the card is still art. These things are true even if you don't like the process used to create the card.

Given the option of pulling a whip/monkey by Waterhouse or one of these, which would you enjoy more? Is the Waterhouse preferable because it was 100% hand drawn? They are now both essentially worthless, which would you prefer to pull out of a box?

If you only liked it because it was valuable, that is a different kind of problem...

Again, not defending the deceit.
it MAY still be "art," but it is NOT a sketch card.

that is the difference
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Old 08-07-2017, 04:35 PM   #147
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it MAY still be "art," but it is NOT a sketch card.

that is the difference
Sketch cards have evolved steadily over the past 20 years. Why wouldn't a hybrid process that starts out digital not be a able to be considered a 'sketch' card. Its no less a 'sketch' than a detailed 2.5x3.5 fine art painting.
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Old 08-07-2017, 04:40 PM   #148
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Gee, you tell people to not be so closed-minded but you absolutely refuse to see why some people don't view this as artwork and continue to talk down to those same people.
Art is subjective, I get it. But don't tell people how they should feel about this. If someone who owns a "sketch" by him doesn't want/like it anymore after finding out what he did, that is their prerogative. You are welcome to buy the cards from them...
I dont refuse, I disagree. Disagreement is how people learn and understand the differing opinions of others. Some individuals can handle it, some can't. I'm happy to have a civil discussion with those willing to keep an open mind, regardless of whether or not they agree with me.

If you can't separate the art from the deceit, then we are having two different discussions and it's an exercise in futility. Nobody will learn anything, it will just devolve into name calling and hostility. That doesn't interest me.
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Old 08-07-2017, 04:42 PM   #149
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Sketch cards have evolved steadily over the past 20 years. Why wouldn't a hybrid process that starts out digital not be a able to be considered a 'sketch' card. Its no less a 'sketch' than a detailed 2.5x3.5 fine art painting.
Again, an artist drawing something digitally is art. Putting a filter on a photo isn't art, that's instragram.

Nothing in this specific case is art, nor is brushing clear glaze over a printed photo to make it appear hand done.

Why can't we agree nothing he was doing was art?

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Old 08-07-2017, 05:02 PM   #150
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I dont refuse, I disagree. Disagreement is how people learn and understand the differing opinions of others. Some individuals can handle it, some can't. I'm happy to have a civil discussion with those willing to keep an open mind, regardless of whether or not they agree with me.

If you can't separate the art from the deceit, then we are having two different discussions and it's an exercise in futility. Nobody will learn anything, it will just devolve into name calling and hostility. That doesn't interest me.
Since you are the only smart one thats gets it, do you want to buy some photorealistic sketch cards on the cheap?
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