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Old 08-07-2017, 05:05 PM   #151
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Sketch cards have evolved steadily over the past 20 years. Why wouldn't a hybrid process that starts out digital not be a able to be considered a 'sketch' card. Its no less a 'sketch' than a detailed 2.5x3.5 fine art painting.
that is a completely separate discussion and one which indirectly has lead to this specific incident.
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Old 08-07-2017, 05:52 PM   #152
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It's like those prints for sale at places like walmart, where they brush on faux brushstrokes to make them look more real haha! classy
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Old 08-07-2017, 06:56 PM   #153
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Again, an artist drawing something digitally is art. Putting a filter on a photo isn't art, that's instragram.

Nothing in this specific case is art, nor is brushing clear glaze over a printed photo to make it appear hand done.

Why can't we agree nothing he was doing was art?

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Why do we have to agree on that point? You are entitled to believe it is not art, and I'm entitled to believe it is. We can debate the topic, or not. This statement does not sway my opinion for a few reasons. I'm willing to continue the discussion, but not in a hostile tone. I'm perfectly content to leave this thread as it seems that is what people prefer.

Again, if he took your money under false pretenses you should be upset and should get a full refund. I'm not debating or demeaning that in any way.
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Old 08-07-2017, 07:06 PM   #154
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Some people believe all one has to do is alter or edit something, no matter how minutely, and it becomes art. Just as others believe a pair of glasses on a table is 'modern art'.

I am not one of those people.
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Old 08-07-2017, 07:10 PM   #155
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Why do we have to agree on that point? You are entitled to believe it is not art, and I'm entitled to believe it is. We can debate the topic, or not. This statement does not sway my opinion for a few reasons. I'm willing to continue the discussion, but not in a hostile tone. I'm perfectly content to leave this thread as it seems that is what people prefer.

Again, if he took your money under false pretenses you should be upset and should get a full refund. I'm not debating or demeaning that in any way.
This is all I'm getting from that post...



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Old 08-07-2017, 08:15 PM   #156
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I think that a lot of the confusion and blame in this, as with many issues over the years, comes back to the card companies. Topps does not do a good job of defining what you are getting. I just broke a Fantastic Four Archives box, and it's sitting in front of me. Rittenhouse made the definition clear on the box: "1 Hand-Drawn Colored Sketchafex card inside" HAND DRAWN. So if these cards in question were included in a Rittenhouse release (and assuming the claim is true), BAM, deception.

Topps however ... look at their marketing. Star Wars Masterwork, all it says is Sketch Card. Now, we could certainly point out that the established definition is hand drawn, and even Merriams defines sketch as "a rough drawing representing the chief features of an object or scene and often made as a preliminary study" with drawing being the key word. But without a specific definition of what constitutes a Sketch Card in a Topps release its tough to decide if this is fair game at least from a legal deliverable perspective. And my gut tells me that Topps will not be releasing a clarification on the definition any time soon.

It would be interesting if any artists were allowed to copy/paste the section of their Topps contract relating to the deliverable sketch cards. Is it a contractually Defined Term with rules around what does and doesn't constitute a sketch? Or is it completely generic and up for interpretation?

I don't like seeing people dragged through the mud publicly regardless of the situation, but I do also understand the passion here. I only collect sketches, so personally, I would be bummed if I found out one of my 1/1 sketch cards was just someone printing out images and simply manipulating the surface. My perceived value is much higher for more realistic art (with a few notable exceptions where style trumps realism). I've happily paid high dollars for work from Henry-Smith, Hendrickson, McCormack, and tons of other artists who can so incredibly make a card come to life with a realistic image. So if I paid those same prices for one of these cards and then found out it was just a screenshot printout ... yeah, personally I would be going for my money back. I see myself paying (especially for AP cards which I prefer, so the artists get the money directly) based on the talent of the artist and for the privilege of owning a piece of their artwork.

I'm all for pushing the boundaries of what a sketch card can be, but it's all my opinion. I love experiments. I think Mike Hicks' single line drawings in the MM16 set are brilliant. I've seen John Soukup so some amazing things on card stock. Jason Adams' stencil art kicks ass to me. Chris Henderson did some mind-blowing shadowbox work on some of his SW cards. But I have to be honest, I can't see how a digital print out attached to a sketch card is anything new or exciting. Is it art? Maybe. But it is something I should get in lieu of a hand-drawn sketch card? Hell no. Manufactured patch cards are bad enough, this feels like manufactured art cards being incorrectly called Sketch Cards. Again, just me talking to myself. Some people might think these are the greatest thing ever. Art is inherently subjective as they say.
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Old 08-07-2017, 08:28 PM   #157
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Just spoke with Brian Gray from Leaf on the phone. I have been in touch with him since this information came out. He got a chance to finally read through this thread in full. He said he is amazed at the forum and how they band together to call out forgeries like this and Dak ect and made a comment about the person who actually took apart their card to show the deception of these sketches by Hepner.

Here is what he has told me, and said its ok for me to post this information

1) Obviously, this artist will no longer get work with Leaf

2) The two "sketch" autos I have (Christopher Lloyd and Joan Cusack) are to be returned to Leaf. Leaf plans to destroy them

3) My two "sketch" autos will be remade, with brand new sketches by pretty much the top artist out there right now (I am not going to say who, but I am sure if you look at who else did work for Leaf for this set, its pretty obvious)


Brian might make an official statement at some point, but I wanted to at least get this out there for anyone who has a leaf "sketch" auto from this artist just so they know Leaf has their back. A lot of people can talk down about Leaf, however, Leaf is one of the only card companies out there that you can send an e-mail directly to the owner and know that it WILL get read, and 95% or more will get a response from him too. I e-mailed Topps about this twice, and have heard nothing back.

Brian told me Hepner only did 25 total "sketches" for them, so at least the damage is small for them and this was caught before he was included in additional future sets for Leaf. Topps potentially has hundreds of sketches from him that they will eventually need to make some sort of statement on.

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Old 08-07-2017, 08:33 PM   #158
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Brian might make an official statement at some point, but I wanted to at least get this out there for anyone who has a leaf "sketch" auto from this artist just so they know Leaf has their back. A lot of people can talk down about Leaf, however, Leaf is one of the only card companies out there that you can send an e-mail directly to the owner and know that it WILL get read, and 95% or more will get a response from him too. I e-mailed Topps about this twice, and have heard nothing back.

Brian told me Hepner only did 25 total "sketches" for them, so at least the damage is small for them and this was caught before he was included in additional future sets for Leaf. Topps potentially has hundreds of sketches from him that they will eventually need to make some sort of statement on.
I couldn't agree more with this statement. I have sent BG three emails over the years and he has responded to all three. I had one problem with a typo on a BGS slab, not only did he fix it but he sent me some swag to compensate my shipping cost. I'm glad to hear he's fixing this, though it doesn't surprise me. Meanwhile we have crickets coming from Topps...

This speaks volumes, time to order a box of 2017 Pop Century...
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Old 08-07-2017, 08:37 PM   #159
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Rittenhouse is a cool company to correspond with too. Steve Charendoff is a great guy!
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Old 08-07-2017, 09:11 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by mf1971999 View Post
I think that a lot of the confusion and blame in this, as with many issues over the years, comes back to the card companies. Topps does not do a good job of defining what you are getting. I just broke a Fantastic Four Archives box, and it's sitting in front of me. Rittenhouse made the definition clear on the box: "1 Hand-Drawn Colored Sketchafex card inside" HAND DRAWN. So if these cards in question were included in a Rittenhouse release (and assuming the claim is true), BAM, deception.

Topps however ... look at their marketing. Star Wars Masterwork, all it says is Sketch Card. Now, we could certainly point out that the established definition is hand drawn, and even Merriams defines sketch as "a rough drawing representing the chief features of an object or scene and often made as a preliminary study" with drawing being the key word. But without a specific definition of what constitutes a Sketch Card in a Topps release its tough to decide if this is fair game at least from a legal deliverable perspective. And my gut tells me that Topps will not be releasing a clarification on the definition any time soon.

It would be interesting if any artists were allowed to copy/paste the section of their Topps contract relating to the deliverable sketch cards. Is it a contractually Defined Term with rules around what does and doesn't constitute a sketch? Or is it completely generic and up for interpretation?

I don't like seeing people dragged through the mud publicly regardless of the situation, but I do also understand the passion here. I only collect sketches, so personally, I would be bummed if I found out one of my 1/1 sketch cards was just someone printing out images and simply manipulating the surface. My perceived value is much higher for more realistic art (with a few notable exceptions where style trumps realism). I've happily paid high dollars for work from Henry-Smith, Hendrickson, McCormack, and tons of other artists who can so incredibly make a card come to life with a realistic image. So if I paid those same prices for one of these cards and then found out it was just a screenshot printout ... yeah, personally I would be going for my money back. I see myself paying (especially for AP cards which I prefer, so the artists get the money directly) based on the talent of the artist and for the privilege of owning a piece of their artwork.

I'm all for pushing the boundaries of what a sketch card can be, but it's all my opinion. I love experiments. I think Mike Hicks' single line drawings in the MM16 set are brilliant. I've seen John Soukup so some amazing things on card stock. Jason Adams' stencil art kicks ass to me. Chris Henderson did some mind-blowing shadowbox work on some of his SW cards. But I have to be honest, I can't see how a digital print out attached to a sketch card is anything new or exciting. Is it art? Maybe. But it is something I should get in lieu of a hand-drawn sketch card? Hell no. Manufactured patch cards are bad enough, this feels like manufactured art cards being incorrectly called Sketch Cards. Again, just me talking to myself. Some people might think these are the greatest thing ever. Art is inherently subjective as they say.
Agree. The only thing I would add is that people are minimizing the process he is using. It is simply being stated that he is printing out an image, sticking it to cardstock, and putting a clear coat / fixative over the service.

According to the PDF, his process is more like
1. Manipulating the image with professional software, including but not limited to using built in filters
2. Printing the modified image in reverse
3. Transferring the ink from the print to the surface of the cardstock by chemical means
4. Touching up and possibly adding additional finishing to the transferred image
5. Applying a clear coat / fixative

I think what he is doing requires some talent and skill. It is not the same as free-hand drawing based on a reference, but that is not the same as free-hand drawing without a reference. Is there a place for cards created this way in the hobby? People want cheap photorealistic sketch cards, so I don't see why not. The value people place on a card will always be in some part related to the time and skill required to create that card. The gap between a Waterhouse Whip and a NAR! is wide.
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Old 08-07-2017, 09:15 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Spider-Fan View Post
Agree. The only thing I would add is that people are minimizing the process he is using. It is simply being stated that he is printing out an image, sticking it to cardstock, and putting a clear coat / fixative over the service.

According to the PDF, his process is more like
1. Manipulating the image with professional software, including but not limited to using built in filters
2. Printing the modified image in reverse
3. Transferring the ink from the print to the surface of the cardstock by chemical means
4. Touching up and possibly adding additional finishing to the transferred image
5. Applying a clear coat / fixative

I think what he is doing requires some talent and skill. It is not the same as free-hand drawing based on a reference, but that is not the same as free-hand drawing without a reference. Is there a place for cards created this way in the hobby? People want cheap photorealistic sketch cards, so I don't see why not. The value people place on a card will always be in some part related to the time and skill required to create that card. The gap between a Waterhouse Whip and a NAR! is wide.
BUT his explanation video doesn't showcase the process you are explaining. He is still trying to FAKE freehanding it, which is why I think people are still angry with him. He is still trying to be a con artist even after being called out.
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Old 08-07-2017, 09:21 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Spider-Fan View Post
Agree. The only thing I would add is that people are minimizing the process he is using. It is simply being stated that he is printing out an image, sticking it to cardstock, and putting a clear coat / fixative over the service.

According to the PDF, his process is more like
1. Manipulating the image with professional software, including but not limited to using built in filters
2. Printing the modified image in reverse
3. Transferring the ink from the print to the surface of the cardstock by chemical means
4. Touching up and possibly adding additional finishing to the transferred image
5. Applying a clear coat / fixative


I think what he is doing requires some talent and skill. It is not the same as free-hand drawing based on a reference, but that is not the same as free-hand drawing without a reference. Is there a place for cards created this way in the hobby? People want cheap photorealistic sketch cards, so I don't see why not. The value people place on a card will always be in some part related to the time and skill required to create that card. The gap between a Waterhouse Whip and a NAR! is wide.
so he is actually hand drawing absolutely nothing???
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Old 08-07-2017, 09:34 PM   #163
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so he is actually hand drawing absolutely nothing???
this would be correct.

but some people make a conscience decision to be idiots who can't accept facts for facts
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Old 08-07-2017, 09:41 PM   #164
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this would be correct.

but some people make a conscience decision to be idiots who can't accept facts for facts
so...i can create "sketch" cards despite having no artistic talent.



good to know
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Old 08-07-2017, 09:42 PM   #165
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BUT his explanation video doesn't showcase the process you are explaining. He is still trying to FAKE freehanding it, which is why I think people are still angry with him. He is still trying to be a con artist even after being called out.
..And I'm not defending that. I fully agree his deceitful practices are unacceptable, but if another artist was to offer cards that he openly admitted were made this way?
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Old 08-07-2017, 09:47 PM   #166
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..And I'm not defending that. I fully agree his deceitful practices are unacceptable, but if another artist was to offer cards that he openly admitted were made this way?
He would quickly be looking for a new job.
No one on this forum but you sees this as art so after your initial purchase with this imaginary artist he would be out of work.
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Old 08-07-2017, 09:48 PM   #167
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..And I'm not defending that. I fully agree his deceitful practices are unacceptable, but if another artist was to offer cards that he openly admitted were made this way?
if it is advertised as a "sketch" card and done by this method, even if fully disclosed, i feel it would be wrong.

a "sketch" card should be completely hand drawn.
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Old 08-07-2017, 11:48 PM   #168
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Seems like only Upper Deck includes 'Hand drawn' on their sketch card backs.
004 by tod wacko, on Flickr
http://2017-Topps-Star-Wars-40th-Anniversary-Sketch-Card-_1[1] by tod wacko, on Flickr
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Old 08-08-2017, 01:07 AM   #169
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OK all, try this link for the PDF

PDF Link
much appreciated!
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Old 08-08-2017, 01:45 AM   #170
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I get the vibe Spider-Fan enjoys being the contrarian in the room.
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Old 08-08-2017, 08:38 AM   #171
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That may be your expectation, but may not be the artists contractual obligation.

Where do stencils fall in your definition of "from scratch"? Why is copying free-hand okay but tracing unacceptable? It's not like the final product is any different.

If you are happy with the card in your hand, stay ignorant and happy.
Hey, Bob. Are you still taking commissions?
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Old 08-08-2017, 08:51 AM   #172
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I'm not defending a liar. That is not acceptable. If he thinks his technique is acceptable then he should defend it.

However, if people pull a card that they like, why should they change that opinion if they find out it was made differently than they assumed? The card hasn't changed.

Hand drawn... well that is not as black and white to me as it is to you. If he printed and then added touches by hand, some aspect of the finished product was done by hand, and it's a 1/1. You may not like it, but it doesn't make it untrue.

If a stencil is made by hand, place over a card, and sprayed with spray paint... well that is hardly hand drawn. I'm not demeaning the practice. I own some pieces made that way that I'm very happy with. But there are individuals that feel those don't qualify as sketch cards. And so the debate continues.

Sketch cards is nothing but a ceremonial name for what evolved into art cards over a decade ago.
Would you have the same view about hard cash?

Say you have a bunch of $100 bills in your wallet, and you're happy you have them, would your opinion on these change if someone informed you they were forgeries?

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Old 08-08-2017, 09:07 AM   #173
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Would you have the same view about hard cash?

Say you have a bunch of $100 bills in your wallet, and you're happy you have them, would your opinion on these change if someone informed you they were forgeries?

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It's only a forgery because you were deceived about how it was made. Custom printed cards have been around for a long time and are generally accepted by the card collecting community. People buy, sell, and commission them regularly in this forum. I don't see a huge difference in how they are made. But, I digress, if anybody wants to discuss the topic without focusing on the deception that was committed, feel free to shoot me a pm. I realize it's not easy.
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Old 08-08-2017, 09:22 AM   #174
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He doesn't realize all of these cards were given to companies and individuals that paid Bob for hand drawn artwork, not digital printing onto cards. That's why stencils slip thru because they can be 1/1 still whereas printing is identical each time.

That, or he is clearly not understanding the argument here that we are solely talking about pack pulled "art" where a card company was lied to and collectors who pulled the card were duped.

This thread is honestly dead until Bob replies or gives us a full sketch video like he promised on facebook.

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Old 08-08-2017, 10:21 AM   #175
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Back on topic... I find it kind of interesting that celebrities who "commission" him also sign said drawings/paintings. If the piece was a commission that they're going to hang in their home, why would they sign it?
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