case missing a box paypal claim?

alexlazarevich · 09-09-2011, 01:44 PM

I have a first time customer, with decent feedback, that bought a case of 2011 Finest Football from me on eBay. They claim the case only had 7 boxes in it, as opposed to the 8 it was supposed to have. They have not provided any pictures, and they opened all the other boxes already, so they cannot return the 7/8 box case to me. They claim they did not know the case should have 8 boxes until after they opened it. They are asking for an 8th box or they will file a PayPal claim.

The buyer claims they called Topps (at my suggestion) and Topps said they will not send them another box, and the buyer also claimed that Topps said it was my distributors responsibility to make a claim back to Topps and that Topps would send the distributor another box.

I did not open the case before I sold it. I have no proof that the case did not have 8 boxes in it, because I received it factory sealed from my supplier (a very well known distributor - not Blowout) and shipped it out (double boxed) exactly as I received it.

First off, has anyone ever heard of a Topps factory sealed case missing an entire box?

Secondly, I'm curious if any other sellers have experience this type of situation, and what they did, and what the outcome was. I'm not afraid of negative feedback, and I'm not afraid of a PayPal claim. I think since the buyer has already opened every box in the case, it is not possible to return the item as it was purchased. I'm curious how a PayPal claim would turn out.

Thanks for your input.

go_steelers07 · 09-09-2011, 01:49 PM

don't do a thing........ you have no control over what Topps does at the factory. you'll win a PP claim so just ride it out.

Prospect Rush · 09-09-2011, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by go_steelers07

don't do a thing........ you have no control over what Topps does at the factory. you'll win a PP claim so just ride it out.

I disagree. You will have to refund a box imo.

go_steelers07 · 09-09-2011, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Major_League

I disagree. You will have to refund a box imo.

if the claim is item not as described....... the product is no longer in original condition so the buyer can't send it back. meaning the seller won't have to refund.

if the cliam is for not received...... the seller wins again.

XL5 · 09-09-2011, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by go_steelers07

if the claim is item not as described....... the product is no longer in original condition so the buyer can't send it back. meaning the seller won't have to refund.

if the cliam is for not received...... the seller wins again.

Or the buyer can just throw a bunch of the cards in a box, ship it with DC, and they win.

But somehow I doubt this buyer bothers, it's just an attempt to get a free box.

go_steelers07 · 09-09-2011, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XL5

Or the buyer can just throw a bunch of the cards in a box, ship it with DC, and they win.

But somehow I doubt this buyer bothers, it's just an attempt to get a free box.

alex can show proof with video that he didn't receive what was originally sold. that might add up to some convincing evidence for PP.

DaveTaplin · 09-09-2011, 02:07 PM

Any way you go I would weigh your cases from now on. I would just settle with them and then block them going forwards. I have a hard time thinking any buyer wouldn't know how many boxes were supposed to be in the case but oh well.

I once was working in at KB Toys and we received a case of Playstations (the first one) that was missing one. The case had the factory seal still.

crazy8parlay · 09-09-2011, 02:12 PM

He opened up the other 7 boxes first, then complained? End of story, this guy just wants another box. He can't file because he can't return the product as received. He'll leave negative feedback for you which you can't control, but it's better than eating the cost on that case of Finest.

If I were you, I would file a fraud claim with ebay.

alexlazarevich · 09-09-2011, 06:33 PM

To the anger of some, who probably think I'm letting a snake out of the basket, I decided to send a full box.

Before I decided to do that, I offered a sealed mini box (half a full box), but the buyer declined, and became more forceful, demanding. Based on his response I'm 75% sure this is a scam. But I'm not 100% sure because I didn't weigh the case.

I will be weighing cases from now on, no doubt about it. And I will put a disclaimer in my listings: "Cases/Boxes are sold 'as is'. Seller is not responsible for the contents of the sealed case. Any missing hits or contents should be taken up with the manufacturer." (or something like that - if anyone has a better disclaimer I'd love to see it)

Of course, the weighing and the disclaimer will probably have little to no relevance on a PayPal claim. But what it will do is discourage scammers, because they will know that I KNOW when I'm being scammed, and then I'll fight a known scammer with everything I have. Weighing the cases will give me that knowledge, for sure, because a case missing a full box weighs significantly less than cases that have all boxes in them, even accounting for variances in hits, etc. (I know this from weighing the remaining Finest cases I have)

I also was concerned that the buyer would have more tricks up his sleeve should he file a PayPal claim. If he does file a claim, he'd file for the entire case price of $759.99. If PayPal somehow sided with the buyer, I'd be out $759.99, not just $100. And I know of a recent case where PayPal told a seller they do NOT use video evidence anymore to decide claims. So having video of me opening the returned item wouldn't do anything in PayPal's mind.

Sorry for the long post, it's been heavy on my mind the entire day. Glad I finally made a decision, hope it's the one that ends this crapola once and for all.

Thanks for listening, and the feedback, I appreciate everyone's response. I've learned a lot from this.

go_steelers07 · 09-09-2011, 06:49 PM

$hit........ i'm buying cases, opening and pulling out the good stuff...... then open a claim and send all the crap back.

lemur01 · 09-09-2011, 07:11 PM

I would at least call his bluff before sending out another box.

crazy8parlay · 09-09-2011, 07:15 PM

Do us and the collecting community a favor, post his ebay ID up here. Might be a good idea to let other case sellers on ebay know that he's a scam artist. Then they can avoid him altogether.

alexlazarevich · 09-09-2011, 07:19 PM

Well, I decided to treat him as if he's telling the truth. So I'm treating him as I'd treat any honest buyer.

Also, I'm stuck trying to keep that 100% feedback going. But now I'm thinking, that 100% feedback just cost me $100. (box) And that's no guarantee, the buyer still might neg me. How much more will that 100% cost me?

At some point I have to give up the 100% feedback.

What if I paid someone to give me a negative, like setup a BIN for $1 with the buyer promising to leave a negative. At least it would be a valid reason, and there'd be no anger about it because I'd be asking for it. And then I wouldn't feel the pressure to keep the stupid 100% feedback going, because it'd already be dinged.

lemur01 · 09-09-2011, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexlazarevich

To the anger of some, who probably think I'm letting a snake out of the basket, I decided to send a full box.

Before I decided to do that, I offered a sealed mini box (half a full box), but the buyer declined, and became more forceful, demanding. Based on his response I'm 75% sure this is a scam. But I'm not 100% sure because I didn't weigh the case.

I will be weighing cases from now on, no doubt about it. And I will put a disclaimer in my listings: "Cases/Boxes are sold 'as is'. Seller is not responsible for the contents of the sealed case. Any missing hits or contents should be taken up with the manufacturer." (or something like that - if anyone has a better disclaimer I'd love to see it)

Of course, the weighing and the disclaimer will probably have little to no relevance on a PayPal claim. But what it will do is discourage scammers, because they will know that I KNOW when I'm being scammed, and then I'll fight a known scammer with everything I have. Weighing the cases will give me that knowledge, for sure, because a case missing a full box weighs significantly less than cases that have all boxes in them, even accounting for variances in hits, etc. (I know this from weighing the remaining Finest cases I have)

I also was concerned that the buyer would have more tricks up his sleeve should he file a PayPal claim. If he does file a claim, he'd file for the entire case price of $759.99. If PayPal somehow sided with the buyer, I'd be out $759.99, not just $100. And I know of a recent case where PayPal told a seller they do NOT use video evidence anymore to decide claims. So having video of me opening the returned item wouldn't do anything in PayPal's mind.

Sorry for the long post, it's been heavy on my mind the entire day. Glad I finally made a decision, hope it's the one that ends this crapola once and for all.

Thanks for listening, and the feedback, I appreciate everyone's response. I've learned a lot from this.

I'd bet the farm he wouldn't file one if you called his bluff. If he admits the product came sealed, I don't possibly see how you could be liable. Sorry for your misfortune.

dthimesch · 09-09-2011, 07:24 PM

This really sucks. You almost certainly would have lost a paypal case which sucks so I probably would have just offered him a refund of the amount of 1 box. I am sure the box was not missing but what can you do. I hope that after taking care of the problem you have now blocked him?

I also wonder if you could have made a claim with shipcover as you know the case was factory sealed and then the buyer claims there was only 7 boxes there for something happened in between which leaves open a case for a insurance claim.

Before giving him the box you could have tried telling him that if there was only 7 boxes there must have been some sort of tampering of the package which would constitute mail fraud and that you need to send him documents to sign for the claim so the USPS (federal government) could investigate. I have heard of buyers backing off when you tell them you are going to those lengths. Idk just some random thoughts.

XL5 · 09-09-2011, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by go_steelers07

alex can show proof with video that he didn't receive what was originally sold. that might add up to some convincing evidence for PP.

The buyer could just say that's what he got. Is there a video of the buyer receiving the original case and opening? I'm not siding with the buyer, I just know Paypal and know they would.

crazy8parlay · 09-09-2011, 07:25 PM

You might also want to call Topps and see if they have anything to say about it. Maybe they'll reimberse you the box so you don't lose out.

lemur01 · 09-09-2011, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexlazarevich

Well, I decided to treat him as if he's telling the truth. So I'm treating him as I'd treat any honest buyer.

Also, I'm stuck trying to keep that 100% feedback going. But now I'm thinking, that 100% feedback just cost me $100. (box) And that's no guarantee, the buyer still might neg me. How much more will that 100% cost me?

At some point I have to give up the 100% feedback.

What if I paid someone to give me a negative, like setup a BIN for $1 with the buyer promising to leave a negative. At least it would be a valid reason, and there'd be no anger about it because I'd be asking for it. And then I wouldn't feel the pressure to keep the stupid 100% feedback going, because it'd already be dinged.

Lets say for the sake of argument he is being truthful and honest. He still is the one who messed up by opening the product and then threatening a claim. Its his mistake, and I would let him pay for it. Not trying to bulldoze you, I just hate to see a man lose out like this.

lemur01 · 09-09-2011, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazy8parlay

You might also want to call Topps and see if they have anything to say about it. Maybe they'll reimberse you the box so you don't lose out.

If the customer would email Topps the UPC codes, they would reimburse them. Maybe Alex could ask the guy to at least send the codes back from the case, and the 7 boxes.

mightbe · 09-09-2011, 07:41 PM

I don't remember from last year, but how are Finest cases packed? Are they still those odd shape boxes? If there is an even number of boxes they should fit perfectly in the case, no? Wouldn't it be obvious a box was missing? Like Triple Threads inner cases have a folded piece of cardboard as a spacer but that is because they are an odd number of boxes (9).

Nevermind I see your Ebay photo of an open case. Guy is full of it...you'd notice one box was missing ESPECIALLY since "8/2 CT" is stated on the outside of the case. Fight this as best as you can!

Oh, and plus you stated it is an 8 Box case in the listing title!

If he has the nerve to file a claim and you don't win it than Paypal/Ebay is an even bigger joke than most think they already are.

alexlazarevich · 09-09-2011, 07:51 PM

Here's the risk of going through a PayPal claim: if he files a PayPal claim it's going to be for the ENTIRE $759.99. (the whole case) If I somehow lose the claim, I'm refunding that entire amount. He'd return a box full of crap, and I'd refund $759.99. That is a big risk. PayPal does not accept video's as evidence in disputes, at least there's another thread on this forum where a seller recently had video evidence and PayPal told him outright it wouldn't make a difference at all. Would PayPal understand the difference between opening a case of cards versus opening the boxes of cards inside the case? Would they realize that the buyer opened all the boxes? Would the buyer lie about opening the boxes to PayPal?

Really, the key here is to learn from my mistake. I have to weigh the cases before I ship them, so I know they aren't missing a box. Then when a buyer makes this claim, I know they are scamming, and then I can fight it. I can also post their eBay ID so we can all block them. That's what I'll be doing in the future if this happens again.

alexlazarevich · 09-09-2011, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mightbe

If he has the nerve to file a claim and you don't win it than Paypal/Ebay is an even bigger joke than most think they already are.

Exactly. If I fight it and lose, I'm out $759.99. As it stands now I'm only out $100.

mightbe · 09-09-2011, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexlazarevich

Exactly. If I fight it and lose, I'm out $759.99. As it stands now I'm only out $100.

Ok, I got so mad reading about your problem I didn't think about that. I do see what you're saying...even if you are 99.99% certain the guy is lying you'd still be risking $760 on Paypal having one bit of common sense.

Another thing is that with the way the boxes are in the case packaged so tightly you would like hear them sliding around if one was missing. There isn't enough "play" in the space between the boxes that they would get jammed up so you would not hear them moving around.

Has the guy listed any Finest cards on Ebay? Just watch him list enough base sets or something that would have required that extra box.

mmbtvs · 09-09-2011, 08:07 PM

Let me know if the guy lives anywhere near Western mass/Northern Connecticut. I'll go over there and check his trash for 8 boxes of finest, and if need be go inside and have a "cup of coffee" with the man.

mightbe · 09-09-2011, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmbtvs

Let me know if the guy lives anywhere near Western mass/Northern Connecticut. I'll go over there and check his trash for 8 boxes of finest, and if need be go inside and have a "cup of coffee" with the man.

I'm sure you have a Tigers cap but do you have the Magnum PI 'stache and a dwarf British man-servant?

09-09-2011, 01:44 PM	#1
alexlazarevich Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Champaign, Illinois Posts: 4,033 alexlazarevich*cardboardaddict alexlazarevich	case missing a box paypal claim? I have a first time customer, with decent feedback, that bought a case of 2011 Finest Football from me on eBay. They claim the case only had 7 boxes in it, as opposed to the 8 it was supposed to have. They have not provided any pictures, and they opened all the other boxes already, so they cannot return the 7/8 box case to me. They claim they did not know the case should have 8 boxes until after they opened it. They are asking for an 8th box or they will file a PayPal claim. The buyer claims they called Topps (at my suggestion) and Topps said they will not send them another box, and the buyer also claimed that Topps said it was my distributors responsibility to make a claim back to Topps and that Topps would send the distributor another box. I did not open the case before I sold it. I have no proof that the case did not have 8 boxes in it, because I received it factory sealed from my supplier (a very well known distributor - not Blowout) and shipped it out (double boxed) exactly as I received it. First off, has anyone ever heard of a Topps factory sealed case missing an entire box? Secondly, I'm curious if any other sellers have experience this type of situation, and what they did, and what the outcome was. I'm not afraid of negative feedback, and I'm not afraid of a PayPal claim. I think since the buyer has already opened every box in the case, it is not possible to return the item as it was purchased. I'm curious how a PayPal claim would turn out. Thanks for your input. Last edited by alexlazarevich; 09-14-2011 at 07:38 AM.

09-09-2011, 07:11 PM	#11
lemur01 Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 5,154	I would at least call his bluff before sending out another box. __________________ Pull my Finger Have you been Lemur'd today? Currently hoarding mountains of cards that I should be trading.

09-09-2011, 07:24 PM	#15
dthimesch Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 32,798	This really sucks. You almost certainly would have lost a paypal case which sucks so I probably would have just offered him a refund of the amount of 1 box. I am sure the box was not missing but what can you do. I hope that after taking care of the problem you have now blocked him? I also wonder if you could have made a claim with shipcover as you know the case was factory sealed and then the buyer claims there was only 7 boxes there for something happened in between which leaves open a case for a insurance claim. Before giving him the box you could have tried telling him that if there was only 7 boxes there must have been some sort of tampering of the package which would constitute mail fraud and that you need to send him documents to sign for the claim so the USPS (federal government) could investigate. I have heard of buyers backing off when you tell them you are going to those lengths. Idk just some random thoughts. __________________ @dt_sportscards YouTube

09-09-2011, 07:41 PM	#20
mightbe Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 6,625 MasterShake	I don't remember from last year, but how are Finest cases packed? Are they still those odd shape boxes? If there is an even number of boxes they should fit perfectly in the case, no? Wouldn't it be obvious a box was missing? Like Triple Threads inner cases have a folded piece of cardboard as a spacer but that is because they are an odd number of boxes (9). Nevermind I see your Ebay photo of an open case. Guy is full of it...you'd notice one box was missing ESPECIALLY since "8/2 CT" is stated on the outside of the case. Fight this as best as you can! Oh, and plus you stated it is an 8 Box case in the listing title! If he has the nerve to file a claim and you don't win it than Paypal/Ebay is an even bigger joke than most think they already are. Last edited by mightbe; 09-09-2011 at 07:47 PM.

09-09-2011, 08:07 PM	#24
mmbtvs unregistered Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 3,304	Let me know if the guy lives anywhere near Western mass/Northern Connecticut. I'll go over there and check his trash for 8 boxes of finest, and if need be go inside and have a "cup of coffee" with the man. __________________ -"Close your eyes and remember this. It won't be back again, it's almost gone. Even times that don't seem like much will be your only crutch when you're alone. Time moves slow when you're seventeen and then it picks up steam at twenty-one."

09-09-2011, 01:49 PM	#2
go_steelers07 Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Nittany Lion Country Posts: 11,168 psu98	don't do a thing........ you have no control over what Topps does at the factory. you'll win a PP claim so just ride it out.

09-09-2011, 02:07 PM	#7
DaveTaplin Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Rockland, Me Posts: 1,462	Any way you go I would weigh your cases from now on. I would just settle with them and then block them going forwards. I have a hard time thinking any buyer wouldn't know how many boxes were supposed to be in the case but oh well. I once was working in at KB Toys and we received a case of Playstations (the first one) that was missing one. The case had the factory seal still.

09-09-2011, 02:12 PM	#8
crazy8parlay Banned Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 3,255 crazy8sportscardbreaks	He opened up the other 7 boxes first, then complained? End of story, this guy just wants another box. He can't file because he can't return the product as received. He'll leave negative feedback for you which you can't control, but it's better than eating the cost on that case of Finest. If I were you, I would file a fraud claim with ebay.

09-09-2011, 06:33 PM	#9
alexlazarevich Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Champaign, Illinois Posts: 4,033 alexlazarevich*cardboardaddict alexlazarevich	To the anger of some, who probably think I'm letting a snake out of the basket, I decided to send a full box. Before I decided to do that, I offered a sealed mini box (half a full box), but the buyer declined, and became more forceful, demanding. Based on his response I'm 75% sure this is a scam. But I'm not 100% sure because I didn't weigh the case. I will be weighing cases from now on, no doubt about it. And I will put a disclaimer in my listings: "Cases/Boxes are sold 'as is'. Seller is not responsible for the contents of the sealed case. Any missing hits or contents should be taken up with the manufacturer." (or something like that - if anyone has a better disclaimer I'd love to see it) Of course, the weighing and the disclaimer will probably have little to no relevance on a PayPal claim. But what it will do is discourage scammers, because they will know that I KNOW when I'm being scammed, and then I'll fight a known scammer with everything I have. Weighing the cases will give me that knowledge, for sure, because a case missing a full box weighs significantly less than cases that have all boxes in them, even accounting for variances in hits, etc. (I know this from weighing the remaining Finest cases I have) I also was concerned that the buyer would have more tricks up his sleeve should he file a PayPal claim. If he does file a claim, he'd file for the entire case price of $759.99. If PayPal somehow sided with the buyer, I'd be out $759.99, not just $100. And I know of a recent case where PayPal told a seller they do NOT use video evidence anymore to decide claims. So having video of me opening the returned item wouldn't do anything in PayPal's mind. Sorry for the long post, it's been heavy on my mind the entire day. Glad I finally made a decision, hope it's the one that ends this crapola once and for all. Thanks for listening, and the feedback, I appreciate everyone's response. I've learned a lot from this.

09-09-2011, 06:49 PM	#10
go_steelers07 Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Nittany Lion Country Posts: 11,168 psu98	$hit........ i'm buying cases, opening and pulling out the good stuff...... then open a claim and send all the crap back.

09-09-2011, 07:15 PM	#12
crazy8parlay Banned Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 3,255 crazy8sportscardbreaks	Do us and the collecting community a favor, post his ebay ID up here. Might be a good idea to let other case sellers on ebay know that he's a scam artist. Then they can avoid him altogether.

09-09-2011, 07:19 PM	#13
alexlazarevich Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Champaign, Illinois Posts: 4,033 alexlazarevich*cardboardaddict alexlazarevich	Well, I decided to treat him as if he's telling the truth. So I'm treating him as I'd treat any honest buyer. Also, I'm stuck trying to keep that 100% feedback going. But now I'm thinking, that 100% feedback just cost me $100. (box) And that's no guarantee, the buyer still might neg me. How much more will that 100% cost me? At some point I have to give up the 100% feedback. What if I paid someone to give me a negative, like setup a BIN for $1 with the buyer promising to leave a negative. At least it would be a valid reason, and there'd be no anger about it because I'd be asking for it. And then I wouldn't feel the pressure to keep the stupid 100% feedback going, because it'd already be dinged.

09-09-2011, 07:25 PM	#17
crazy8parlay Banned Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 3,255 crazy8sportscardbreaks	You might also want to call Topps and see if they have anything to say about it. Maybe they'll reimberse you the box so you don't lose out.

09-09-2011, 07:51 PM	#21
alexlazarevich Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Champaign, Illinois Posts: 4,033 alexlazarevich*cardboardaddict alexlazarevich	Here's the risk of going through a PayPal claim: if he files a PayPal claim it's going to be for the ENTIRE $759.99. (the whole case) If I somehow lose the claim, I'm refunding that entire amount. He'd return a box full of crap, and I'd refund $759.99. That is a big risk. PayPal does not accept video's as evidence in disputes, at least there's another thread on this forum where a seller recently had video evidence and PayPal told him outright it wouldn't make a difference at all. Would PayPal understand the difference between opening a case of cards versus opening the boxes of cards inside the case? Would they realize that the buyer opened all the boxes? Would the buyer lie about opening the boxes to PayPal? Really, the key here is to learn from my mistake. I have to weigh the cases before I ship them, so I know they aren't missing a box. Then when a buyer makes this claim, I know they are scamming, and then I can fight it. I can also post their eBay ID so we can all block them. That's what I'll be doing in the future if this happens again.