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Old 06-22-2018, 03:03 AM   #51
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Yea we're always out there protesting, blocking traffic and threatening the president's grandchildren.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Nah, seems like they're too busy either being racist, ignorant, and/or contradicting themselves.
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Old 06-22-2018, 07:22 AM   #52
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You've been corrected, care to retort.
I guess so?

I mean if this policy has been in place, and the administration has changed nothing, but they decided to go with this zero-tollerance policy approach, then I guess they have changed something, right?

So why all of the outrage? Sure, some of the stories and images are "fake news" to help try and vilinize Trump, but if this whole thing has been the way our policy works, why bring so much attention to it?

To me, this whole thing has been an agenda play by Trump to bring the issue to new heights in order to help promote his wall.

Oh, and the idea that he promoted, and had his administration defend, separating children from families.
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Old 06-22-2018, 08:37 AM   #53
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I guess so?

I mean if this policy has been in place, and the administration has changed nothing, but they decided to go with this zero-tollerance policy approach, then I guess they have changed something, right?

So why all of the outrage? Sure, some of the stories and images are "fake news" to help try and vilinize Trump, but if this whole thing has been the way our policy works, why bring so much attention to it?

To me, this whole thing has been an agenda play by Trump to bring the issue to new heights in order to help promote his wall.

Oh, and the idea that he promoted, and had his administration defend, separating children from families.

Trump is just having the laws on the books enforced. Nothing has changed, except him holding people accountable to enforce the laws in place. We need immigration changes in this country and Trump is trying to force congress to do their job.I am all for legal immigration, but not illegal immigration. I would like to see a wall in place, more border security, end of chain migration and people vetted before they are allowed to stay. There is already a backlash in Europe because of open borders. We can not just allow anyone who wants to come to America to stay. They need to be productive individuals.

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Old 06-22-2018, 08:47 AM   #54
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This thread made me think of McHale's Navy.
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Old 06-22-2018, 09:20 AM   #55
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This thread made me think of McHale's Navy.
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Old 06-22-2018, 09:21 AM   #56
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Trump is just having the laws on the books enforced. Nothing has changed, except him holding people accountable to enforce the laws in place. We need immigration changes in this country and Trump is trying to force congress to do their job.I am all for legal immigration, but not illegal immigration. I would like to see a wall in place, more border security, end of chain migration and people vetted before they are allowed to stay. There is already a backlash in Europe because of open borders. We can not just allow anyone who wants to come to America to stay. They need to be productive individuals.



Oh that Trump--such a strong leader for us!

And really a wall? That is the dumbest waste of government money I have ever heard of. I almost want it to be built so those of you blinded by this ideological mask will see how useless it was.

Building the wall is about grift. Some of you are such suckers.
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Old 06-22-2018, 09:52 AM   #57
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Oh that Trump--such a strong leader for us!

And really a wall? That is the dumbest waste of government money I have ever heard of. I almost want it to be built so those of you blinded by this ideological mask will see how useless it was.

Building the wall is about grift. Some of you are such suckers.
Can you explain your position? Why do you think it's about grift and why do you think it will be useless?
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Old 06-22-2018, 10:10 AM   #58
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Can you explain your position? Why do you think it's about grift and why do you think it will be useless?

Even with the prototypes, the fun has started: http://www.pogo.org/blog/2018/04/bad...ntractors.html

(And I'll save you the check:
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A wall can be dug under, climbed over, or gone around. For example, will the wall extend over the Gulf of Mexico?

Common sense should tell you a wall will not stop illegal immigration and will be a symbol that is useful to our enemies to question "American Exceptionalism." One in particular would have a lot of interest in that--maybe you've seen them in the news lately?
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Old 06-22-2018, 10:13 AM   #59
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I told myself, don't go in the thread, just keep moving on---should have listened to myself
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Old 06-22-2018, 10:34 AM   #60
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Even with the prototypes, the fun has started: http://www.pogo.org/blog/2018/04/bad...ntractors.html

(And I'll save you the check:
[B]A wall can be dug under, climbed over, or gone around. For example, will the wall extend over the Gulf of Mexico?

Common sense should tell you a wall will not stop illegal immigration and will be a symbol that is useful to our enemies to question "American Exceptionalism." One in particular would have a lot of interest in that--maybe you've seen them in the news lately?
I hear you using three different arguments.

(1) The potential companies looking to build the wall are inept (for one reason or another)
(2) The actual structure will fail to curb illegal immigration
(3) The actual structure will be used as a symbol of America's "isolation"

What if I told you the Wall is will be completed in 3 years, and brings illegal immigration numbers down by 95% each year? Essentially I'm asking you a hypothetical to better understand your position; if the Wall did work for it's intended effect, would you support it?
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Old 06-22-2018, 10:41 AM   #61
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I hear you using three different arguments.

(1) The potential companies looking to build the wall are inept (for one reason or another)
(2) The actual structure will fail to curb illegal immigration
(3) The actual structure will be used as a symbol of America's "isolation"

What if I told you the Wall is will be completed in 3 years, and brings illegal immigration numbers down by 95% each year? Essentially I'm asking you a hypothetical to better understand your position; if the Wall did work for it's intended effect, would you support it?
I oppose the wall for a number of reasons.

I can't possible imagine it being even 25% effective, but going with your estimate I would admit I was wrong about it working. Would it then be a good idea? Well, how much did it cost to build? How much is it saving with the current round-up and detention activities? That would factor into my assessment.

Is a 95% effective wall a more humane way to handle immigration than detention facilities? Yes, I'd have to concede that.

Cost and effectiveness aside, I think it could do a lot of damage to our international reputation. I could see it becoming an anti-Statue of Liberty.

Imagine Putin saying, "Mr. President, tear down this wall" and you get the payoff I think they want eventually.
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Old 06-22-2018, 10:42 AM   #62
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I can tell you from first hand experience with dealing in the Border Wall and the government that even the bid-packages from the government were a joke. Almost intending to oust any reputable contractor and whittle it down to firms that believe they can take on this huge of a liability and risk, when really they can't.

Our firm pulled out after the scope of the project got so out of hand that it has become a running joke.

I can say with pretty good certainty that whomever ends up building the wall, if it does indeed get built, will never see the agreed upon contract price from the government for their work. It will all be tied up in litigation and civil suits and either cause the contractor to go bankrupt or settle for a fraction of the price.
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Old 06-22-2018, 11:00 AM   #63
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I oppose the wall for a number of reasons.

I can't possible imagine it being even 25% effective, but going with your estimate I would admit I was wrong about it working. Would it then be a good idea? Well, how much did it cost to build? How much is it saving with the current round-up and detention activities? That would factor into my assessment.

Is a 95% effective wall a more humane way to handle immigration than detention facilities? Yes, I'd have to concede that.

Cost and effectiveness aside, I think it could do a lot of damage to our international reputation. I could see it becoming an anti-Statue of Liberty.

Imagine Putin saying, "Mr. President, tear down this wall" and you get the payoff I think they want eventually.
You're not answering in good faith. You can't rationally say "I may have to concede a wall is more humane then detention facilities" and then back it up with "The wall is exactly what Putin wants!"

Equating a southern border wall with Russia is meta 2018!

I simply want to know if you believe the border wall is a good idea if it works. Yes or no?
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Old 06-22-2018, 11:07 AM   #64
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You're not answering in good faith. You can't rationally say "I may have to concede a wall is more humane then detention facilities" and then back it up with "The wall is exactly what Putin wants!"

Equating a southern border wall with Russia is meta 2018!

I simply want to know if you believe the border wall is a good idea if it works. Yes or no?
Since you're going to be like this about it and make Mr. Logic sad, I'm not answering your simple question because a 95% effective wall will never exist.

Of course I can say your made up level of effectiveness wall would be more humane than detention facilities, but the actual wall would be used by Putin to mock American hypocrisy. Those are two separate things. Welcome to Hot Take World, where symbols matter more than facts.

If you don't think that's part of the reason Putin backed Trump, then I can't help you.
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Old 06-22-2018, 11:16 AM   #65
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Since you're going to be like this about it and make Mr. Logic sad, I'm not answering your simple question because a 95% effective wall will never exist.

Of course I can say your made up level of effectiveness wall would be more humane than detention facilities, but the actual wall would be used by Putin to mock American hypocrisy. Those are two separate things. Welcome to Hot Take World, where symbols matter more than facts.

If you don't think that's part of the reason Putin backed Trump, then I can't help you.
Listen, all I'm trying to do here is better understand your position, specific to the southern border wall and immigration. You seem intent on talking about Putin and Russia; citing Putin as a Trump backer like it's a fact.

You say the wall is a terrible idea because it won't work. Fine, I'll take an alternative path. Do you have a better idea of how to curb illegal immigration, or do you believe illegal immigration is not a problem?
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Old 06-22-2018, 11:21 AM   #66
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You're not answering in good faith. You can't rationally say "I may have to concede a wall is more humane then detention facilities" and then back it up with "The wall is exactly what Putin wants!"

Equating a southern border wall with Russia is meta 2018!

I simply want to know if you believe the border wall is a good idea if it works. Yes or no?
We have had segments of a border wall in place for sometime. Especially around Smugglers Gulch in San Diego and around El Paso. Those walls are 20-feet to 30-feet tall and each span 30+ miles.

Neither have slowed down the illegals from coming into our country.

The wall will simply be an ideological divide between the two countries and in-large be something that Trump can use to help bolster his reelection campaign.

I have a feeling once a new President takes over, the wall will be torn down to help bolster their administrations agenda as team who opened up the lines between the two countries and will try and draw comparisons of tearing down the Berlin Wall and sanctimoniously showing some type of unity between our two countries.

In the end, it will be a dramatic waste of time and money on both ends. The wall simply does not change our policy and procedures. People will find ways around the wall. Make it tougher for them to find ways around the laws.
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Old 06-22-2018, 11:27 AM   #67
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We have had segments of a border wall in place for sometime. Especially around Smugglers Gulch in San Diego and around El Paso. Those walls are 20-feet to 30-feet tall and each span 30+ miles.

Neither have slowed down the illegals from coming into our country.

The wall will simply be an ideological divide between the two countries and in-large be something that Trump can use to help bolster his reelection campaign.

I have a feeling once a new President takes over, the wall will be torn down to help bolster their administrations agenda as team who opened up the lines between the two countries and will try and draw comparisons of tearing down the Berlin Wall and sanctimoniously showing some type of unity between our two countries.

In the end, it will be a dramatic waste of time and money on both ends. The wall simply does not change our policy and procedures. People will find ways around the wall. Make it tougher for them to find ways around the laws.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't San Diego a perfect example of how a wall works? True, the overall amount of illegal immigration hasn't changed much but San Diego is no longer the hub it used to be. In the 80's + 90's almost half of the countries illegal population crossed here; and now, almost nothing (because of the wall).

https://www.theepochtimes.com/san-di...s_2297915.html

"Following the construction of the new fencing, apprehensions of illegal migrants dropped in San Diego from 480,000 in fiscal 1996 to 100,000 in fiscal 2002, the report states. It notes San Diego saw a 94 percent reduction in apprehensions between 1993 and 2004."
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Old 06-22-2018, 11:27 AM   #68
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Listen, all I'm trying to do here is better understand your position, specific to the southern border wall and immigration. You seem intent on talking about Putin and Russia; citing Putin as a Trump backer like it's a fact.

You say the wall is a terrible idea because it won't work. Fine, I'll take an alternative path. Do you have a better idea of how to curb illegal immigration, or do you believe illegal immigration is not a problem?
And you seem to be ignoring the symbolic component of the wall, as if Trump is not already using it that way and has been for some time. It *is* a symbol and it's one that will be used against us if the wall is built. Notably by Russia. Bank on it.

Yes, I believe illegal immigration is a problem. Aggressively punish people who hire illegal laborers and deny illegals non-life-saving social services. That will resolve the issue quickly.

This is one of those problems that people in power like to talk about and not really solve because there's so much political capital to get out of it and so much money to be made with bad solutions.

Who benefits from cheap labor provided by illegal immigration? Why aren't we doing more to go after them?
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Old 06-22-2018, 11:38 AM   #69
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Even with the prototypes, the fun has started: http://www.pogo.org/blog/2018/04/bad...ntractors.html

(And I'll save you the check:
[B]A wall can be dug under, climbed over, or gone around. For example, will the wall extend over the Gulf of Mexico?

Common sense should tell you a wall will not stop illegal immigration and will be a symbol that is useful to our enemies to question "American Exceptionalism." One in particular would have a lot of interest in that--maybe you've seen them in the news lately?
Hmmmmm..............seemed to work pretty well in East and West Berlin for a number of years.
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Old 06-22-2018, 11:38 AM   #70
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Oh that Trump--such a strong leader for us!

And really a wall? That is the dumbest waste of government money I have ever heard of. I almost want it to be built so those of you blinded by this ideological mask will see how useless it was.

Building the wall is about grift. Some of you are such suckers.
Israels wall seems to work pretty well.
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Old 06-22-2018, 11:39 AM   #71
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't San Diego a perfect example of how a wall works? True, the overall amount of illegal immigration hasn't changed much but San Diego is no longer the hub it used to be. In the 80's + 90's almost half of the countries illegal population crossed here; and now, almost nothing (because of the wall).

https://www.theepochtimes.com/san-di...s_2297915.html

"Following the construction of the new fencing, apprehensions of illegal migrants dropped in San Diego from 480,000 in fiscal 1996 to 100,000 in fiscal 2002, the report states. It notes San Diego saw a 94 percent reduction in apprehensions between 1993 and 2004."
I guess that's part of the point I was getting at. I think it's a giant leap to think that if we "copy and paste" what we originally did in San Diego across our whole border, that we will see the same reduction.

More realistically, and why we haven't see a dramatic overall drop in illegal numbers, is that they are finding new ways to cross.

So to my last point in the post above, they will continue to find ways to get into the country. As a country, are willing to invest the money to build the wall, and hire the staff to protect it 24-7, knowing that it's not the answer to our problem, and knowing that we are currently at $21 trillion in debt (and even more so after the recent tax cuts)?

I'm a gambler, but I think this a bad bet.
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Old 06-22-2018, 11:40 AM   #72
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And you seem to be ignoring the symbolic component of the wall, as if Trump is not already using it that way and has been for some time. It *is* a symbol and it's one that will be used against us if the wall is built. Notably by Russia. Bank on it.

Yes, I believe illegal immigration is a problem. Aggressively punish people who hire illegal laborers and deny illegals non-life-saving social services. That will resolve the issue quickly.

This is one of those problems that people in power like to talk about and not really solve because there's so much political capital to get out of it and so much money to be made with bad solutions.

Who benefits from cheap labor provided by illegal immigration? Why aren't we doing more to go after them?
So you would be fine with a National E-Verify for all employment?

Trump administration is going after compainies. 150 works just got busted at an Ohio meat packing company.

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Old 06-22-2018, 11:42 AM   #73
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Hmmmmm..............seemed to work pretty well in East and West Berlin for a number of years.
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Israels wall seems to work pretty well.

Cool--so we're taking tips from the Soviets and going to shoot to kill all along this magical wall? I'd love to see how this will be staffed and paid for.
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Old 06-22-2018, 11:43 AM   #74
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So you would be fine with a National E-Verify for all employment?

I don't have a problem with E-Verify
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Old 06-22-2018, 11:46 AM   #75
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And you seem to be ignoring the symbolic component of the wall, as if Trump is not already using it that way and has been for some time. It *is* a symbol and it's one that will be used against us if the wall is built. Notably by Russia. Bank on it.

Yes, I believe illegal immigration is a problem. Aggressively punish people who hire illegal laborers and deny illegals non-life-saving social services. That will resolve the issue quickly.

This is one of those problems that people in power like to talk about and not really solve because there's so much political capital to get out of it and so much money to be made with bad solutions.

Who benefits from cheap labor provided by illegal immigration? Why aren't we doing more to go after them?
I'm not ready to opine on what the symbol of the wall could represent. Other countries can say whatever they like; the fact of the matter is the US is the only country where millions of people travel hundreds / thousands of miles to get in through it's southern border. Let Germany say whatever they want, they're dealing with their own migrant crisis right now.

E-Verify is a terrific idea I wish Congress would implement, but doesn't seem like it will happen. Beyond that, I would argue the wall can be extremely effective, as I'm much more optimistic on it's functionality than you.

I couldn't care less what the world thinks of the United States so long as I am proud of the United States and it still represents the freedoms and opportunities it always has.
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