50 games in - who is your rookie of the year?

[COMCMax]

Pretty good article about this topic.

Ben Simmons is more deserving than Donovan Mitchell for NBA rookie of the year

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by COMCMax

Pretty good article about this topic.

Ben Simmons is more deserving than Donovan Mitchell for NBA rookie of the year

Idk why WP put up a pay wall. I just find the exact same article somewhere else. I'm not going to subscribe to their crap website

[COMCMax]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

Idk why WP put up a pay wall. I just find the exact same article somewhere else. I'm not going to subscribe to their crap website

That's odd. Letting me view it for free. I just ran into on facebook.

[jstasyk1121]

Originally Posted by Wolves4Life

Simmons is good but he has other help that's carrying the Sixers. Mitchell IS the best player on the Jazz (Simmons isn't best on Sixers).

using what have you come to this being a fact?? im assuming you just figure since he is the leading scorer on Jazz that makes him the best player on the team??

cuz using any actual stats/metrics wont show that...but ok seems logical


PER:
Mitchell- 17.0
Gobert- 19.7

Philly guys just for fun
Embiid- 23.0
Simmons- 18.5

Win Shares:
Mitchell- 3.1
Gobert- 3.8-in like 25 less games!!

Embiid- 4.4
Simmons- 5.0

Win Shares/48:
Mitchell- 0.085
Gobert- 0.182

Embiid- 0.152
Simmons- 0.127

BPM-Box plus minus(all from bask-ref):
Mitchell- 0.8
Gobert- 4.4

Embiid- 2.7
Simmons- 3.5

VORP:
Mitchell- 1.3
Gobert- 1.2

Embiid- 1.6
Simmons- 2.6

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by jstasyk1121

using what have you come to this being a fact?? im assuming you just figure since he is the leading scorer on Jazz that makes him the best player on the team??

cuz using any actual stats/metrics wont show that...but ok seems logical


PER:
Mitchell- 17.0
Simmons- 18.5

Win Shares:
Mitchell- 3.1
Simmons- 5.0

Win Shares/48:
Mitchell- 0.085
Simmons- 0.127

BPM-Box plus minus(all from bask-ref):
Mitchell- 0.8
Simmons- 3.5

VORP:
Mitchell- 1.3
Simmons- 2.6

Even more telling when you filter out Gobert and Embiid.


Also, I see no reason why "not being the best player on a team" should count against you for ROY.

[the27guy]

Eight people voting on ROY here.... 4 votes for Mitchell. 4 for Simmons....

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/2...yer-coach-year

[ThoseBackPages]

its time for a tie!

[OGCNYC]

I really hope after the ASB Simmons starts going on a scoring rampage and averages closer to 18 points so we could put this debate over with smh.

[TheAnswer03]

I am putting my vote on the Spida!

[DajuanWagner]

Originally Posted by TheAnswer03

I am putting my vote on the Spida!

I had to google "Spida". I thought it was some reference to John Salley........

[21Pittsburgh58]

It's a TIE so far in my opinion

[COMCMax]

Originally Posted by 21Pittsburgh58

It's a TIE so far in my opinion

End of the year game of horse to decide winner

[21Pittsburgh58]

Originally Posted by COMCMax

End of the year game of horse to decide winner

That would be awesome for us! It should be an All-Star event. Instead of the 3pt contest (which I love), they play 5-player HORSE.

[the27guy]

Originally Posted by 21Pittsburgh58

That would be awesome for us! It should be an All-Star event. Instead of the 3pt contest (which I love), they play 5-player HORSE.

They played HORSE a few years ago as part of AS but they played outside.

So dumb.

I really think fans would love a HORSE tournament. 5 players. Lottery the order. Put up a decent prize for winning. Add a 24 second shot clock. One round.

I guarantee people would like this more than the Skills Contest.

[jstasyk1121]

i honestly wonder if we switched the stats around completely how the voting/comments would be on here....part of me thinks so many people are just blah or sick of the hype players or something...i dont know what it is...

but for the life of me i just dont get why people think Mitchell is in the lead or is running away with it or that honestly its all that close??

i think a big part is that he just wasnt a flashy top 3 pick...he was 13th pick to a boring team(not my opinion...just mean in general its the Jazz...not a NBA hotbed really)...and he has overperformed so greatly to what people expected that they are just praising it more than normal...

before all the dumb "oh you must have simmons cards"...no i dont have one card of either guy...i dont actually collect that much anymore...i enjoy the talk/debate on the boards...

but if this was the other way around where simmons was basically just a nice scorer and not much else...and mitchell was putting up 16/8/7 i genuinely believe it would be a LANDSLIDE vote in Mitchells favor...like 85% of the vote would go that way...

but for whatever reason it seems like basically everything is being ignored and all we hear is:

"well he is the go-to guy on his team at all points of the game...as a rookie...and when you account for his 3s and FTs he is surprisingly very efficient"

and we hear how Utah is winning like crazy now...Gobert been back for 14gms...they are 12-2 and Mitchell stats are the same if not worse in areas now compared to when Rudy was out

you look at all of that and still wanna say its Mitchell as the best rookie?? i have to question that...literally what are you basing it on other than his PPG...the fact that he shoots 3s...and that simmons has embiid on his team(while ignoring that Gobert is basically an all-NBA level Big himself)

Simmons has him trounced in:
Rebounds
Assists
Blocks
Steals
PER
VORP
+/-
Win Shares
WS/48
currently a better team record even with the 11gm win streak Utah has-philly has been on a roll too lately...but who cares apparently
currently in a playoff position...utah is still on outside looking in even after winning 11 straight...which illustrates how bad they were when Rudy was out for a while(but they had a horribly tough schedule...fair enough...they were still like 19-28 before this streak)

i dont mean to beat a dead horse...i just dont get it...the guy is a very polished scorer for a rookie...absolutely...outside of that its simmons all day on everything else...everything!

[OGCNYC]

I agree with the above. People love to hate on hype. Similar vibe im getting when LeBron entered the league.

If we switched up the stats, it would be a no brainer. in all of my 35 years of coaching and playing basketball, I have NEVER seen a rookie do what Simmons has done.

If Mitchell averaged 17pts/8 rebs/7 assists/2 steals/1 block vs Simmons averaging 19.5 points/ 3.5 reb / 3.5 assists / 1 steal, we would ALL be saying Mitchell roty 100%.

As someone who has coached, played, and watched basketball for over 35 years, What people are experiencing with Ben Simmons, is called the numbing affect, because he has been doing this since the first game of his career.

I will say this right now, Ben Simmons is a good jumpshot away from taking over LeBrons throne. Even if he never develops a jumper, he will IMO still be a top 5 player in his prime.

[CubKings]

Hell, it may very well could just end up as a tie. Which would be pretty fair. They both have been the best rookies for a while. Kuzma had a little stretch, but he's cooled off. But why not a co ROY? Hasn't happened since Francis/Brand in 2000 and before that was Kidd/Hill in 1995.

[21Pittsburgh58]

Originally Posted by CubKings

Hell, it may very well could just end up as a tie. Which would be pretty fair. They both have been the best rookies for a while. Kuzma had a little stretch, but he's cooled off. But why not a co ROY? Hasn't happened since Francis/Brand in 2000 and before that was Kidd/Hill in 1995.

Are people saying Simmons in a landslide holding Simmons RC's? Are people saying Mitchell doing the same? It's definitely a factor for some.

Is Simmons being penalized because of the hype? Is Mitchell being rewarded because he had none (in comparison to Simmons)?

Will be a very exciting 2nd half of the season!

[jstasyk1121]

i just think somehow simmons' season is not being respected for what it is...i mean i know there are a bunch of guys who have done what mitchell is doing as a rookie...i know 20/5/5 has only been done a handful of times...but he isnt at that...he is under 4 on both reb/ast...and still for time being under 20...

simmons 16/8/7 as a rookie...how many have done that?? i dont know...im sure at the end of the year we will hear more about it...i dont know where to go to be able to specifically pull by certain parameters...

but i am sitting here thinking...who in the league right now has EVER had a season of 16/8/7...not as a rookie...at any point in their careers?? again i cant look up everyone and dont know how to quickly pull this up...

here is my list that i can think of:

Lebron James
Russell Westbrook

of all the great players currently in the league...those are the only two i think that have ever had 16/8/7 or better(granted their lines are way better...but still)

with further review using espn double double ranks cuz that shows pts/reb/ast all next to each other and obviously if someone avg this they would be near top...guys who have come close in last decade or so:

closest each year since 04/05
Jason Kidd in 2004- 14/7/8
Lebron James in 2005- 31/7/6.5
Jason Kidd in 2006- 13/8/9
Lebron James in 2007- 30/8/7
Lebron James in 2008- 28/7.5/7
Lebron James in 2009- 30/7/8.5
Lebron James in 2010- 27/7.5/7
Lebron James in 2011- 27/8/6
Lebron James in 2012- 28/8/7
Kevin Durant in 2013- 32/7/5.5...M.Carter-Will 16/6/6
Russell Westbrook in 2014- 28/7/8.5
Russell Westbrook in 2015- 23/8/10....Draymond Green- 14/9.5/7.5
Russell Westbrook in 2016- 30/10.5/10.5...James Harden- 29/8/11...Lebron- 26/8.5/8.5

2017: russ/lebron/simmons with Jokic and Blake Griffin both somewhat close but over 1ast shy each

SO guys that have actually broken the number that Simmons is putting up as a rookie...

Lebron like a bunch of times
Russ the last few years
Harden 1x

i think that is it...

its pretty damn short list!! and that is using ANY season of a career...not rookie year

[Pathora]

I just hate the rule that Ben Simmons is being counted as a rookie, he had 82 games last year of watching and training with NBA players and coaches to prepare himself for his "rookie" season, while Mitchell came from college.

I think Ben Simmons should win, there's just something about Donovan's game that I prefer watching.

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by jstasyk1121

i just think somehow simmons' season is not being respected for what it is...i mean i know there are a bunch of guys who have done what mitchell is doing as a rookie...i know 20/5/5 has only been done a handful of times...but he isnt at that...he is under 4 on both reb/ast...and still for time being under 20...

simmons 16/8/7 as a rookie...how many have done that?? i dont know...im sure at the end of the year we will hear more about it...i dont know where to go to be able to specifically pull by certain parameters...

but i am sitting here thinking...who in the league right now has EVER had a season of 16/8/7...not as a rookie...at any point in their careers?? again i cant look up everyone and dont know how to quickly pull this up...

here is my list that i can think of:

Lebron James
Russell Westbrook

of all the great players currently in the league...those are the only two i think that have ever had 16/8/7 or better(granted their lines are way better...but still)

with further review using espn double double ranks cuz that shows pts/reb/ast all next to each other and obviously if someone avg this they would be near top...guys who have come close in last decade or so:

closest each year since 04/05
Jason Kidd in 2004- 14/7/8
Lebron James in 2005- 31/7/6.5
Jason Kidd in 2006- 13/8/9
Lebron James in 2007- 30/8/7
Lebron James in 2008- 28/7.5/7
Lebron James in 2009- 30/7/8.5
Lebron James in 2010- 27/7.5/7
Lebron James in 2011- 27/8/6
Lebron James in 2012- 28/8/7
Kevin Durant in 2013- 32/7/5.5...M.Carter-Will 16/6/6
Russell Westbrook in 2014- 28/7/8.5
Russell Westbrook in 2015- 23/8/10....Draymond Green- 14/9.5/7.5
Russell Westbrook in 2016- 30/10.5/10.5...James Harden- 29/8/11...Lebron- 26/8.5/8.5

2017: russ/lebron/simmons with Jokic and Blake Griffin both somewhat close but over 1ast shy each

SO guys that have actually broken the number that Simmons is putting up as a rookie...

Lebron like a bunch of times
Russ the last few years
Harden 1x

i think that is it...

its pretty damn short list!! and that is using ANY season of a career...not rookie year

Partially this.... but partially because some people can't see beyond scoring (even if because of volume) being the end all, be all.

I mean, it was just a year ago that people here were calling for Isaiah Thomas to be MVP.

ISAIAH FREAKING THOMAS!!!

A guy that can do nothing but score. He doesn't pass, he doesn't set picks, and he's probably the worst defender in basketball.

But a lot of people on here honestly thought that he was a "More Valuable" player that guys like Lebron, Kawhi, Durant, Westbrook, Harden, etc.

My guess, it's mostly nerds who have never played a competitive sport and can't appreciate the non flashy things that make good athletes.

This take of mine isn't even an endorsement of one player or the other (although you know who's side I'm on), it's a call for folks to look at other aspects of the game other than volume scoring.

If you can look at the entire body of work for Simmons and Mitchell, weigh the strengths and weaknesses and say that you prefer one guy over the other, then at least you're taking into consideration what it really means to be a good basketball player.

Heck, if you can look at these things and tell me that the all around game of Isaiah Thomas is better than LeBron James, I won't agree with your judgement but can at least respect your method more than just looking at who scores more PPG.

[STLCardinals92]

Originally Posted by Pathora

I just hate the rule that Ben Simmons is being counted as a rookie, he had 82 games last year of watching and training with NBA players and coaches to prepare himself for his "rookie" season, while Mitchell came from college.

I think Ben Simmons should win, there's just something about Donovan's game that I prefer watching.

Hell yea bud! Couldn't have said it better myself. So sick of hearing about him and Lonzo Ball. But yea I sure hope Mitchell gets it!

[ballhawkdawk]

Originally Posted by Pathora

I just hate the rule that Ben Simmons is being counted as a rookie, he had 82 games last year of watching and training with NBA players and coaches to prepare himself for his "rookie" season, while Mitchell came from college.

I think Ben Simmons should win, there's just something about Donovan's game that I prefer watching.

I think the thing about whether or not Simmons is a rookie has some validity, but I doubt will be a factor in the voting. East is also inferior to the West, but how do you quantify that when factoring it into your pick?

Too bad the Jazz don't get more national TV exposure... makes it tough to have an informed opinion without having seen much of one of the two guys in the running for ROY.

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by ballhawkdawk

I think the thing about whether or not Simmons is a rookie has some validity, but I doubt will be a factor in the voting. East is also inferior to the West, but how do you quantify that when factoring it into your pick?

Too bad the Jazz don't get more national TV exposure... makes it tough to have an informed opinion without having seen much of one of the two guys in the running for ROY.

I'd look at splits vs East and West teams.

Simmons vs East: 15.7/8.3/6.8 on 52.7% shooting
Simmons vs West: 17.2/7.2/7.9 on 52.7% shooting

Basketball reference doesn't have splits on steals and blocks, but I'd say that Simmons does slightly better against the better teams in the West.

Mitchell vs East: 19.8/3.8/3.5 on 42% shooting
Mitchell vs West: 19.3/3.2/3.5 on 45.7% shooting.

Mitchell gets more volume against the East and is a more efficient scorer vs the West.

Hard to conclude that Simmons benefits from being in the East, since his numbers are slightly better against Western Conference teams.

[the27guy]

This is fun.

https://t.co/h6RtZxxgHz