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Old 05-15-2018, 10:30 PM   #1
carl2001
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Default Dual Logoman Replacement Rant.

Mods please delete this thread. Done ranting.
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Old 05-15-2018, 10:58 PM   #2
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The entire redemption process is a joke and I am pretty sure it is illegal but card companies continue to get away with it because we don't make a fuss about it. If they don't have the card, they shouldn't include it in the product. Plain and simple. The only time a redemption should be used is if it is for something too large to fit in the pack and even then they should have them on hand.

Let's just say I have a redemption for Kevin Durant and I am a fan of the Warriors. This would be a great card for my collection. However, they are unable to obtain this card. So, instead they send me a James Harden card. Now, as far as money value goes these cards are probably close to value. But, I am not a fan of James Harden and I have zero interest in this card. It does not have the same value as a Kevin Durant card in my eyes.

It really is nonsense. I spend X amount of money on there product, get a redemption and then have to wait 2 years to get my card and even then I might not get it. How would they like it if I bought X amount of there product and then decided to pay for it 8 months later only to pay for it in Euros instead of the American dollar as promised because it is of equal or lesser value? Essentially that is what they are doing and it isn't right.

I've been burned a few times on redemptions and because of that I no longer redeem any of them. Don't care how great the card sounds.
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Old 05-15-2018, 11:29 PM   #3
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The entire redemption process is a joke and I am pretty sure it is illegal but card companies continue to get away with it because we don't make a fuss about it.
It's probably not illegal. I think you mean to say it should be illegal. But not actually illegal, because they don't make guarantees about replacing cards to exact same value cards according to the collectors/customers. I don't think Panini would try to do something blatantly illegal in that regard, and I think they would have proper disclaimers and careful wording about it to get around it.
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Old 05-15-2018, 11:38 PM   #4
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On the plus side that's most likely the worst dual logoman card ever made
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Old 05-15-2018, 11:56 PM   #5
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Good lord, you asked for Kobe or Curry in place of whoever the funk those two guys are on your redemption? Of course Panini is gonna tell you to pound sand, you aimed waaaay too high, ask for other rookies. There can't be any guys worse than your two, literally anyone else is an upgrade....
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:05 AM   #6
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Good lord, you asked for Kobe or Curry in place of whoever the funk those two guys are on your redemption? Of course Panini is gonna tell you to pound sand, you aimed waaaay too high, ask for other rookies. There can't be any guys worse than your two, literally anyone else is an upgrade....
Panini is in a lose-lose in this case. What Kobe/Curry card could they offer up where OP will be happy getting it as a replacement for a dual auto logoman 1/1, even if it is of terrible players. That's just about the toughest card to put a market/replacement value on.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:23 AM   #7
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Good lord, you asked for Kobe or Curry in place of whoever the funk those two guys are on your redemption? Of course Panini is gonna tell you to pound sand, you aimed waaaay too high, ask for other rookies. There can't be any guys worse than your two, literally anyone else is an upgrade....
Not really, considering people still pay quite a lot for logoman cards and 1/1 cards, let alone a 1/1 dual logoman auto card, regardless of the players.

So a $100 Kobe auto is not at all ridiculous. There are a lot of Kobe autos that are only around $100.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:23 AM   #8
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Good lord, you asked for Kobe or Curry in place of whoever the funk those two guys are on your redemption? Of course Panini is gonna tell you to pound sand, you aimed waaaay too high, ask for other rookies. There can't be any guys worse than your two, literally anyone else is an upgrade....
Even if they are scrubs in your book, panini rep valued the card 400 to 500 bucks and we're willing to trade to 750 bucks. I would not even accept a common curry or kobe auto. They can be bought on ebay for 80 to 120 bucks. Dual logo mans hard to value anyways. Plus they kept people in the dark that the actual card was lost for God knows how long. If rich didn't help me I would be waiting for years and years more.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:25 AM   #9
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I would not even accept a common curry or kobe auto. They can be bought on ebay for 80 to 120 bucks.
Kobe, yes, maybe for around $100. But you'll be hard pressed to find panini curry autos for $100 or so.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:31 AM   #10
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^Ah yes I'll just 20 to 30 bucks more and I can buy a common curry auto on ebay. And i said 80 to 120 bucks not 100. Still wont accept that value for trade.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:40 AM   #11
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^Ah yes I'll just 20 to 30 bucks more and I can buy a common curry auto on ebay. And i said 80 to 120 bucks not 100.
Yes, I just took the average, because your range was from 80 to 120. I think the logoman autos are above 120, but it'll be interesting what Panini says.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:40 AM   #12
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I doubt they thought you were asking for a basic Curry or Kobe auto. They probably thought you were asking for a rare one, as many people do. Have had to do a higher end replacement than this one and it went flawless.

Dual auto logoman from Immaculate of Patrick McCaw and Stephen Zimmerman just sold for $406, gotta say their valuation was very fair.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:48 AM   #13
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^I'm not disputing their valuation. I asked them for a list of kobe or Curry cards they have. Collecting is subjective. I don't like other players. But saying that they don't have curry or kobe for trade when kobe is your spokesman is just making the end collector look dumb and they are outright lying. They already misled the first time not disclosing the real situation of the lost card.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:50 AM   #14
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^I'm not disputing their valuation. I asked them what for a list of kobe or Curry cards they have. Collecting is subjective. I don't like other players. But saying that they don't have curry or kobe for trade when kobe is your spokesman is just making the end collector look dumb and outright lying. They already lied the first time not disclosing the real situation of the lost card.
They may not have excess cards of Kobe in stock currently, so to say their lying is pretty bold. They may have current cards for releases. It is why they post videos of Kobe coming in and doing signings.
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:15 AM   #15
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^I'm not disputing their valuation. I asked them for a list of kobe or Curry cards they have. Collecting is subjective. I don't like other players. But saying that they don't have curry or kobe for trade when kobe is your spokesman is just making the end collector look dumb and they are outright lying. They already misled the first time not disclosing the real situation of the lost card.
Kobe being spokesman does not imply that they always have Kobe autos lying around from past releases. They might have run out or they might have posted on panini rewards, etc. They're not going to make extra "past release Kobe auto cards" just for cases like this.

And you saying Curry has been signing in your post to conclude that Panini is lying about there not being extra Curry autos... I mean Curry is probably signing cards for outstanding redemptions that have to be kept in stock or newer releases.

All I'm saying is, knowing that there have certainly been known cases where redemption replacement has led to great names like Giannis, Magic, etc., I don't know if you should flat out accuse them of lying when you don't know their end of the story–you don't know their inventory, you're just making speculations that may not be true.

Alright, I've gotten the feeling that you're quite defensive, so I'm going to stop here b/c I don't want to waste my time on a back and forth. I think Panini will try to do right to some extent in this case, so maybe cooperate with them to get a similar value card that you can sell to buy your Kobe/Curry autos or ask another representative or something.
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Old 05-16-2018, 07:39 AM   #16
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It's probably not illegal. I think you mean to say it should be illegal. But not actually illegal, because they don't make guarantees about replacing cards to exact same value cards according to the collectors/customers. I don't think Panini would try to do something blatantly illegal in that regard, and I think they would have proper disclaimers and careful wording about it to get around it.
It most certainly is illegal even if they have proper wording. Look at that nonsense topps pulled a few years back with there WWE product. They advertised triple h autographs. That was supposed to be his first auto in over 10 years. They could not deliver on it and instead replaced it with cena autos. Do you know how many people bought that product searching for triple h autos? They sold the product on a card that wasn't even in the product.
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:01 AM   #17
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It most certainly is illegal even if they have proper wording. Look at that nonsense topps pulled a few years back with there WWE product. They advertised triple h autographs. That was supposed to be his first auto in over 10 years. They could not deliver on it and instead replaced it with cena autos. Do you know how many people bought that product searching for triple h autos? They sold the product on a card that wasn't even in the product.
And what were the penalties Topps had to pay for it? And I mean what penalties were they forced to pay? Not paid for publicity sake, but required to pay because the government said so.

If you look at the fine print on pretty much any product, they put that the solicitation is subject to change (or something similar). That includes pretty much anything and everything to do with the product.

Additionally, even if it was illegal, at the absolute most it would be false advertising. Which is basically a nothing crime as far as the government is concerned. They have much bigger things to worry about, especially given that Topps and even Panini are relatively small companies.

Another additionally. Even if something were to happen, Topps and Panini could easily argue that the people who have a claim are the people who purchased from them, AKA the distributors. And I'm willing to bet there's 0% chance they are willing to voice any concern.
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:13 AM   #18
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It's up to us as collectors to revolt against redemptions, just like sticker autos, etc. Don't buy the products. They'll get the hint when it hits the bottom line.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:20 AM   #19
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This is just one of the reasons why I don't do wax breaks anymore. Too many redemptions and no way to guarantee you will get the card or similar value if the card never arrives. Bad customer service to have a client waiting 3 years on something and then get picky on the replacement.



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Old 05-16-2018, 11:29 AM   #20
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This is why I generally sell redemptions of bigger cards and buy redemptions of smaller cards. If it is a smaller card and not made, I have a stockpile of value that can get me a nicer card or two in exchange. If the larger redemption isn't made, then I get multiple smaller cards, leaving the whole experience with a less than pleasant feeling.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:43 AM   #21
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And what were the penalties Topps had to pay for it? And I mean what penalties were they forced to pay? Not paid for publicity sake, but required to pay because the government said so.

If you look at the fine print on pretty much any product, they put that the solicitation is subject to change (or something similar). That includes pretty much anything and everything to do with the product.

Additionally, even if it was illegal, at the absolute most it would be false advertising. Which is basically a nothing crime as far as the government is concerned. They have much bigger things to worry about, especially given that Topps and even Panini are relatively small companies.

Another additionally. Even if something were to happen, Topps and Panini could easily argue that the people who have a claim are the people who purchased from them, AKA the distributors. And I'm willing to bet there's 0% chance they are willing to voice any concern.
You just said exactly what I am saying....It most certainly is illegal but it is such a small thing that it isn't worth pursuing so they are allowed to get away with it.

Topps made thousands of dollars by advertising HHH autographs in that product. There were several people buying this product only because of this and then to find out he isn't even in the product. That is false advertising and it is illegal weather they have fine print or not.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:08 PM   #22
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This is why I generally sell redemptions of bigger cards and buy redemptions of smaller cards. If it is a smaller card and not made, I have a stockpile of value that can get me a nicer card or two in exchange. If the larger redemption isn't made, then I get multiple smaller cards, leaving the whole experience with a less than pleasant feeling.
Smart. I agree, buying expensive redemptions is a gamble. Better hope you get the card, and pray the auto is clean.
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Old 05-16-2018, 02:13 PM   #23
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Okay, so I do believe there is a bit at fault on your end when it came to the understanding of a list of players you wanted. Panini could care less when it comes to "sell value" and they have their own estimated evaluation of the card. You said they put it at $400-500 which I assume they told you that is what they have the card priced at. When you said Kobe or Curry, they do not assume you are asking for some simple auto of theirs, but something of near numbering or near rarity. You also have to consider they evaluate the cards by Beckett value not by what the "Ebay Sell Value" is. So asking for such a card of similar rarity of that type of player will obviously exceed the same value of the card you are replacing.

What you should have done in my opinion is make it specific that you would like a player of the caliber of Kobe or Curry that is equal to the evaluation of the dual logoman OR you don't shoot that high and ask for current rookies like Tatum, Mitchell, Simmons even...
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Old 05-16-2018, 03:31 PM   #24
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It most certainly is illegal even if they have proper wording. Look at that nonsense topps pulled a few years back with there WWE product. They advertised triple h autographs. That was supposed to be his first auto in over 10 years. They could not deliver on it and instead replaced it with cena autos. Do you know how many people bought that product searching for triple h autos? They sold the product on a card that wasn't even in the product.
If you really think it is illegal even if they have disclaimers and proper wording in terms of condition (which, if they have proper disclaimers and terms of condition in explicit writing, you have no chance), and if you really think you can win in court against Panini and you feel so strongly about it, go ahead with the lawsuit. Nobody's stopping you from going through with it. You seem to be confident that it is indeed illegal, so maybe that's what you should do.

I highly doubt Panini would set themselves up for lawsuits over redemption replacements by not being careful with disclaimers and proper wording, etc. But who knows.
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Old 05-16-2018, 03:49 PM   #25
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If you really think it is illegal even if they have disclaimers and proper wording in terms of condition (which, if they have proper disclaimers and terms of condition in explicit writing, you have no chance), and if you really think you can win in court against Panini and you feel so strongly about it, go ahead with the lawsuit. Nobody's stopping you from going through with it. You seem to be confident that it is indeed illegal, so maybe that's what you should do.

I highly doubt Panini would set themselves up for lawsuits over redemption replacements by not being careful with disclaimers and proper wording, etc. But who knows.
Well, you're also talking about a company guaranteeing "game worn" products that they vouched for and then when it was revealed the products weren't game worn, it was, "oh, our bad. won't happen again." So, I wouldn't really trust their "disclaimers" anymore than I would trust the bum on the corner giving me correct directions when I'm lost.
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