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Old 02-19-2013, 09:44 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by rhigh2390 View Post
Thats because the choice between picking lebron or kobe is that easy
Well I hate to inform mr. Jordan that I know a 1 grader who just told me that 7 is more then 6. Sorry Michael Robert horry is better then you by you logic.
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:47 AM   #302
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What entire package? You put no emphasis on titles. I put no merit in MVPs. Whats the point? You define criterias that ONLY lebron does well at to prop him. Kobe fans prop Kobe with criterias that fit him being the best. I dont understand how you can argue someone being better by putting down another player.

If you dont think titles mean anything thats fine. Just as fine as me saying MVPs mean nothing. Or leaving your team to build a team through collusion knocks your prestige.
just because you do that with kobe does not mean everyone does it for their favorite player. you use this everytime someone uses a stat or accomplishment that shows a player is better then kobe. and kobe not ever winning without a dominant big man hurts his prestige, and that 3 out of 5 titles, he wasnt the leader of his team. as other professionals have said, kobe had a luxury that lebron and jordan never had.
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Old 02-19-2013, 10:45 AM   #303
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Well I hate to inform mr. Jordan that I know a 1 grader who just told me that 7 is more then 6. Sorry Michael Robert horry is better then you by you logic.


Damn, Lebron really sucks then! Steve Kerr, is way better, as is Bill Wennington!
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Old 02-19-2013, 10:59 AM   #304
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Damn, Lebron really sucks then! Steve Kerr, is way better, as is Bill Wennington!
exactly the reason i do not put so much emphasis on titles. there are several players that are all time greats that never won 1.
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:13 AM   #305
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Good thing is that Jerry West does not play in this period. Otherwise, his NBA final record would get killed every day by the media.
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:28 AM   #306
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Damn, Lebron really sucks then! Steve Kerr, is way better, as is Bill Wennington!
I know right.

Isn't that my point. Lol
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:37 AM   #307
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Not sure what the big deal is here. Jordan is simply saying he would take the guy that has the individual success that has translated to tremendous team success as well. Ask him again in 5 years and the answer may be entirely different.
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:49 AM   #308
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just because you do that with kobe does not mean everyone does it for their favorite player. you use this everytime someone uses a stat or accomplishment that shows a player is better then kobe. and kobe not ever winning without a dominant big man hurts his prestige, and that 3 out of 5 titles, he wasnt the leader of his team. as other professionals have said, kobe had a luxury that lebron and jordan never had.
You just did it. Because Kobe has 5 titles and Lebron has 1, you yourself said you put no empahsis on titles because of it. Again, the term used for this is "Coke bottling". You only think what Lebron excels at should be used to determine greatness. Whats the point of debating if you have already set it so that ONLY lebron can win the argument? Defeats the purpose.
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:50 AM   #309
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Not sure what the big deal is here. Jordan is simply saying he would take the guy that has the individual success that has translated to tremendous team success as well. Ask him again in 5 years and the answer may be entirely different.
Exactly. Lebron fans cannot live with Lebron not being named first. Thats the whole issue.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:16 PM   #310
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by that same token, didn't it only take him 6 years to get a ring? Then 7 to get 2 rings? Then only 8 to get 3 rings????

How long has lebron been in the league? You want to talk about how being able to come out of high school only adds to greatness, and tristan wants to talk about how he has accomplished so many more things than jordan by a certain age. When quoting you about the 6 years to get to the finals, here's some other things that nobody can argue

jordan never lost in the finals.....fact
jordan had 3 rings after 8 years in the league......fact
it took lebron 9 to get his first...........fact


in the words of michael, last time i checked 3 is better than 1.....fact
yes three hall of fame plyers on jordans team is better than anyone on lebrons team his first 7 years

or did you forget about that again?

And lebron got to the finals sooner than jordan
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:29 PM   #311
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I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out it's a combination of being great AND winning that makes for legendary players.

Robert Horry won championships but was not an elite player.

Michael Jordan won championship AND was an elite player.

I think play has more to do with greatness than championships, but that being said, to be truly legendary, I think you need upwards of 3 championships.

Just my criteria.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:33 PM   #312
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I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out it's a combination of being great AND winning that makes for legendary players.

Robert Horry won championships but was not an elite player.

Michael Jordan won championship AND was an elite player.

I think play has more to do with greatness than championships, but that being said, to be truly legendary, I think you need upwards of 3 championships.

Just my criteria.

If Robert Horry was the integral part of the team that led to the title, I assure you he would be up there with the greats. The fact that he wasnt is the reason why he doesnt get talked about when it comes to greatness.

Adam Morrison has rings. If he was a leader/contributor even 3rd option for the team, people would talk about him. But unfortunately he wasnt.

Why is this even a debate. Its clear on who everyone is on all teams.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:40 PM   #313
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You just did it. Because Kobe has 5 titles and Lebron has 1, you yourself said you put no empahsis on titles because of it. Again, the term used for this is "Coke bottling". You only think what Lebron excels at should be used to determine greatness. Whats the point of debating if you have already set it so that ONLY lebron can win the argument? Defeats the purpose.
i didnt just do it, thats how i have always felt. i do not do it solely just for this comparison. so i said that i put no emphasis on titles just because kobe has more then lebron? now i know why you and murrke go back and forth about putting words into peoples mouth. im sorry that lebron excels at more things then kobe, but its just the facts. and my opinion on kobe or lebron was open and still is open. i disliked lebron from the hype he got in highschool through his rc year. i then started watching him play regularly and my opinion changed. you keep throwing around this coke bottling theory, maybe you need to think about it a little more and crawl out of the coke bottle. you usually make some valid points when we debate, but now you are just stooping to accusing me of having beliefs i do not...... type out all of the stats and accolades for kobe and lebron (if it comes down to you just saying well kobe has more titles and career totals are higher since hes been playing longer, then you are "coke bottling"), and then try to reason to me why kobe is a better player. i have done this for lebron. i have nothing personal against kobe and nothing driving me to believe lebron is the better player, i pc both lol.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:40 PM   #314
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If Robert Horry was the integral part of the team that led to the title, I assure you he would be up there with the greats. The fact that he wasnt is the reason why he doesnt get talked about when it comes to greatness.

Adam Morrison has rings. If he was a leader/contributor even 3rd option for the team, people would talk about him. But unfortunately he wasnt.

Why is this even a debate. Its clear on who everyone is on all teams.
Not trying to start up a debate again, but in my opinion, I think a lot of this debate stems from Lebron fans nervous he won't win 4 or 5 championships. So they are trying to solidify his spot historically by saying you don't need to win to be the greatest. That way if he doesn't win more championships they have that to fall back on.

If he does win more championships then during Durants prime they will probably be saying he isn't that great because he hasn't won championships haha.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:44 PM   #315
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Many homers of players will change there equation to what equals the best player based on how there favorite player does. If Lebron wins only one title his fans will say titles don't matter. If he wins 4 or 5 then they will become more important. This is just one example and by no means the only situation where this happens. Kobe fans do the same thing.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:50 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by 1eyed_jack View Post
I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out it's a combination of being great AND winning that makes for legendary players.

Robert Horry won championships but was not an elite player.

Michael Jordan won championship AND was an elite player.

I think play has more to do with greatness than championships, but that being said, to be truly legendary, I think you need upwards of 3 championships.

Just my criteria.
you share the same belief as many. but all time greats such as pete maravich, george gervin, stockton, k. malone, ewing, barkley to name a few (some of them legenday imo) have never won a title.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:58 PM   #317
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you share the same belief as many. but all time greats such as pete maravich, george gervin, stockton, k. malone, ewing, barkley to name a few (some of them legenday imo) have never won a title.
I guess I left it vague.

I mean to considered one of the best of all time as in top 10, you need multiple championships.

Stockton, Malone, Ewing etc...are all all-time greats no doubt, but they are never in the list of the best of the best so to speak.

If Lebron never wins another ring he can still be a top 20, maybe top 15 player if he plays well for another 5 or 6 years. But I don't think he'll get consider for top 5
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:14 PM   #318
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Exactly. Lebron fans cannot live with Lebron not being named first. Thats the whole issue.
Actually the whole issue is Kobe fans thinking Jordans 'approval' is fact.

Jordan has approved a lot of things such as kwame brown. LOL
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:16 PM   #319
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I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out it's a combination of being great AND winning that makes for legendary players.

Robert Horry won championships but was not an elite player.

Michael Jordan won championship AND was an elite player.

I think play has more to do with greatness than championships, but that being said, to be truly legendary, I think you need upwards of 3 championships.

Just my criteria.
bill russell won championships AND was an elite player.

So based on the fact that 11 is more then 6. Russell is way better then jordan.
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:18 PM   #320
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Not trying to start up a debate again, but in my opinion, I think a lot of this debate stems from Lebron fans nervous he won't win 4 or 5 championships. So they are trying to solidify his spot historically by saying you don't need to win to be the greatest. That way if he doesn't win more championships they have that to fall back on.

If he does win more championships then during Durants prime they will probably be saying he isn't that great because he hasn't won championships haha.
dr. mindreader in the building folks.

lol. its so funny when people make something up and force it other people as their opinions.
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:19 PM   #321
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count how many times mj said its not easy or its a hard decision to make. i love it when he's stuttering to come up with an answer and he says kevin durant lol. its just a great argument, you have jordan that says lebron is more dominant but kobe has more rings, and 5 is better then 1. then you have someone like barkley (no titles) that chooses lebron instantly, but then k smith and shaq (title winners) choose kobe because of his titles. certain people put to much stock in titles. ive never felt like jordan is better then kobe just because jordan has 1 more title, the same reason that i do not think others with more titles are better then jordan. i look at the entire package and make my decision.

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i didnt just do it, thats how i have always felt. i do not do it solely just for this comparison. so i said that i put no emphasis on titles just because kobe has more then lebron? now i know why you and murrke go back and forth about putting words into peoples mouth. im sorry that lebron excels at more things then kobe, but its just the facts. and my opinion on kobe or lebron was open and still is open. i disliked lebron from the hype he got in highschool through his rc year. i then started watching him play regularly and my opinion changed. you keep throwing around this coke bottling theory, maybe you need to think about it a little more and crawl out of the coke bottle. you usually make some valid points when we debate, but now you are just stooping to accusing me of having beliefs i do not...... type out all of the stats and accolades for kobe and lebron (if it comes down to you just saying well kobe has more titles and career totals are higher since hes been playing longer, then you are "coke bottling"), and then try to reason to me why kobe is a better player. i have done this for lebron. i have nothing personal against kobe and nothing driving me to believe lebron is the better player, i pc both lol.

As you dont put any emphasis on titles to determine greatness. I put no empahsis on padding stats like Lebron does with his averages. Its meaningless. Thats the whole point. You choose to discredit titles but put more pts on other things that other people discredit. Its a game of circle jerk.

Im not accusing you. All im doing is stating what you stated. You stated you put no emphasis on titles. Its highlighted above. Thats your opinion. I can live with that. What I cant agree on is taking that part of the equation out from the formula because it convientently helps lebrons status to greatness. Thats the issue. Thats called coke bottling.

So lets sit down and define the criteria to choosing greatness?

Title?
Scoring?
MVP?
MVP Finals?
AS?
All NBA teams?
All defensive teams?
Most pts?
Best average?

Which ones do you want to include and not include? Make it simple. Define the criteria and go at it!! Makes it much easier.

If you take out titles, All NBA team, Defensive Teams, Most pts, AS im sure you get Lebron.

If I take out, average, MVPs, Kobe wins.

But what seems to have happend is MJ picked Kobe over Lebron. Here we have people trying to argue that MJ shouldnt have picked Kobe but instead Lebron. LOL.
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:21 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by 1eyed_jack View Post
I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out it's a combination of being great AND winning that makes for legendary players.

Robert Horry won championships but was not an elite player.

Michael Jordan won championship AND was an elite player.

I think play has more to do with greatness than championships, but that being said, to be truly legendary, I think you need upwards of 3 championships.

Just my criteria.
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Originally Posted by 1eyed_jack View Post
I guess I left it vague.

I mean to considered one of the best of all time as in top 10, you need multiple championships.

Stockton, Malone, Ewing etc...are all all-time greats no doubt, but they are never in the list of the best of the best so to speak.

If Lebron never wins another ring he can still be a top 20, maybe top 15 player if he plays well for another 5 or 6 years. But I don't think he'll get consider for top 5
where's chamberlain.

He doesn't have your 3. Out of the top 10 I guess.
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:22 PM   #323
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Lebron pads his stats?

Yup just like when he didn't take that long three to keep his streak going. Oh wait that didn't happen.

What a joke.
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:32 PM   #324
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bill russell won championships AND was an elite player.

So based on the fact that 11 is more then 6. Russell is way better then jordan.
again though, Jordan was a better player than Russell. Don't you know that?

Championships are part of the equation, but I think for most part when you're over 3 or 4 then it's just based on who was the best.
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Old 02-19-2013, 02:08 PM   #325
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MJ knows whats up!.........And the majority of NBA players also said that Kobe would beat Lebron 1 on 1 hands down and they chose Kobe without hesitiation...Even Durant picked Kobe and he plays against both of them...These guys actually play with Kobe and Lebron...All you guys do is sit behind a TV or computer screen and hug Lebrons nuts 24-7...I'll take the pros words over you nuthuggers any day!...LOL
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