Right now, where do you rank Lebron all time?

[GC1980]

Originally Posted by pgisback

Lebron's 248-130 against the West in the last 12 years. You're confusing a good couple teams with a good conference. Couple seasons he was 26-4, 23-7, 25-5, 22-8 against the West. This is the NBA. The dominance he has shown is impressive regardless of how weak you are trying to make the NBA look.

His career and reign over it as the best player for all these years has been very impressive. I would stop short of calling it impressive dominance though. Dominance would mean he won more than any of his peers. Dominance would mean he was the wall so many other superstars in his time had to and couldn’t climb to get that elusive ring. He has dominated his conference but not the NBA.

[tjforce]

My 2 observations from this thread.

1. It's once again turned into a Lebron vs Jordan debate


2. Over 50% of the people voting in this have Lebron as the best or second best ever, despite the fact that a good percentage of ppl commenting don't even have him top 5, and many of them seem to be pouring a lot of effort into it.

My conclustion, Lebron is widely regarded as the second greatest player ever, easily top 5.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by jstasyk1121

I'm not gonna argue east vs west...but I hate when people say this type of thing...u can't just say "if they were in West they would be the 6 seed"

No they wouldnt...cuz if clev was in the West then someone else would be in east...therfore changing the NBA schedule for every team in the league...everything changes...not just 1 tiny detail...maybe in those diff gms Duncan gets hurt and misses 30gms and LeBron wins a title out of the West...

Idk...just always bothers me when guys say "if he was out west he wouldn't do anything...well we have no idea...it is just as pointless as saying bulls vs warriors...

You obviously support an East team.

The West has been brutal for years. LeBron has a losing record against the West in NBA finals. He wouldn't even have 7 straight trips if his team was in the West. Period. That's just a fact.

Some say that he's beaten amazing teams and that's what makes his chips great. A banged up Dubs without their rim.protector and a Spurs team that was one of our weakest teams out of all the championship runs.

Some say he would have to try harder in the West, yes he would, and that becomes taxing.

Hell right now he's gonna get to the NBA finals without even having to face a future HOFer. It's a disgrace to the League.

[cityandcolour]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

You obviously support an East team.

The West has been brutal for years. LeBron has a losing record against the West in NBA finals. He wouldn't even have 7 straight trips if his team was in the West. Period. That's just a fact.

Some say that he's beaten amazing teams and that's what makes his chips great. A banged up Dubs without their rim.protector and a Spurs team that was one of our weakest teams out of all the championship runs.

Some say he would have to try harder in the West, yes he would, and that becomes taxing.

Hell right now he's gonna get to the NBA finals without even having to face a future HOFer. It's a disgrace to the League.

butterfly effect
noun
(with reference to chaos theory) the phenomenon whereby a minute localized change in a complex system can have large effects elsewhere.

The reason I pasted the above is because of your incorrect use of the word "Fact". The way the butterfly effect applies to this scenario because if Lebron were in the West, everything changes. Perhaps draft rights and odds and players fall to different teams, perhaps others come and join the conference for the challenge, perhaps they're scared off to the east? Who knows? You or I do not, so what you're stating is an assumption based on the reality of things now, and not what the reality could be if things with Lebron James were different.

I for one, would be stoked to have able to see alternate timelines, but unfortunately I cannot. It's a fun argument I guess, but let's not get assumptions twisted with facts please.

For the record, I think he's number 2, behind MJ.

[Longshot18]

A few thoughts

a) most people who believe MJ or Lebron is the "best ever" never saw Chamberlain, Russell, and even Kareem. So take that into account. Heck, many never even saw guys like Bird and Magic in their prime.

b) There is a large contingent of fans and media who believe MJ is the best ever that will never, ever, ever, never not in a billion years ever change their thought. LeBron or someone else in the future could win 10 titles and 6 MVPS and those guys would never waiver.

c) I have never been a fan of anyone ever stating they know for certain that Player X is the best ever. Rules of the game change, dynamics of building a team change, the human body has changed, as has the training regimins, etc.

I have always believed that the answer to "Who is the best ever" should be more of a debate about who should be in the team picture of guys being considered best ever.

I honestly don't know who is the GOAT in hoops, and believe anyone who thinks they can "prove it" is full of crap.

Personally, I sit back and enjoy LeBrons greatness. I don't care if he's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.... all I know is in any era if he was your lead player you would be well on your way to winning titles.

[cityandcolour]

Originally Posted by Longshot18

A few thoughts

a) most people who believe MJ or Lebron is the "best ever" never saw Chamberlain, Russell, and even Kareem. So take that into account. Heck, many never even saw guys like Bird and Magic in their prime.

b) There is a large contingent of fans and media who believe MJ is the best ever that will never, ever, ever, never not in a billion years ever change their thought. LeBron or someone else in the future could win 10 titles and 6 MVPS and those guys would never waiver.

c) I have never been a fan of anyone ever stating they know for certain that Player X is the best ever. Rules of the game change, dynamics of building a team change, the human body has changed, as has the training regimins, etc.

I have always believed that the answer to "Who is the best ever" should be more of a debate about who should be in the team picture of guys being considered best ever.

I honestly don't know who is the GOAT in hoops, and believe anyone who thinks they can "prove it" is full of crap.

Personally, I sit back and enjoy LeBrons greatness. I don't care if he's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.... all I know is in any era if he was your lead player you would be well on your way to winning titles.

I dig this take, everyone will always make comparisons, but at the end of the day, it is pretty subjective!

[starfox]

LeBron is a top-10 all-time player, not top-5. If he gets another ring, he still won't be top-5. Those guys in the top-five are just too received; LeBron is mostly hated (I am a fan, though). Nevertheless, what many of you don't realize is we are watching one of the last of the greats. These new kids are nice, but I don't see top-10 all-time in any of them. Not Curry. Not Harden. Not Durant. Not Kyrie. Not Greek Freak. When LeBron leaves, we probably won't see excellence like this again.
If the 5 players that I mention become top-10 all-time, who do they supplant? That's just the thing: players like Lebron, Shaq, and Jordan come about every 15 years or so (maybe closer to every 17 years). And if a player is special, he has to remain healthy for most of a decade and have other top players with him (and a very good coach).

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[hawkeyecards]

Not even a LeBron fan myself, but all this hate towards him is making me one. People not even putting him in the top 5 are completely delusional. LeBron is easily the best player ever, put him in any era and he dominates more than he does today. People that say "MJ was better and have you ever seen him play?" are just plain ignorant and love reliving the glory days. LeBron easily #1. GOAT.

[Round Mound]

Originally Posted by cityandcolour

The reason I pasted the above is because of your incorrect use of the word "Fact". The way the butterfly effect applies to this scenario because if Lebron were in the West, everything changes. Perhaps draft rights and odds and players fall to different teams, perhaps others come and join the conference for the challenge, perhaps they're scared off to the east? Who knows? You or I do not, so what you're stating is an assumption based on the reality of things now, and not what the reality could be if things with Lebron James were different.

It is actually a very good point. The last 5 years or so, we have seen top tier players moving mostly from the Eastern to the Western conference, therefore weakening the Eastern. Is it because they like the weather better? Or they want to fight harder for a spot in the playoffs? Or do they want to avoid crossing path with LeBron?

[Drdduet]

What Lebron is achieving and has achieved is legendary. Those who don't consider him top 2 seem to believe they know basketball better than anyone else--it's less than comical...to take something like this so serious that you lose touch with reality.

As an individual player there are arguments for Lebron as GOAT, and yes I did see Jordan play. To some Jordan has become a mythical god that no mere mortal could ever approach, well that's horse crap. However there are not enough superlatives for Jordan, and I can say the same for Lebron. They are two different players who have dominated their sport like no other.

[Orangejello727]

Does it really matter where anyone ranks any player?

[bruce76]

I'm going to go a completely different route here and use football as an analogy. Especially when it comes to those of you who go the Jordan vs Lebron route. So if you don't know anything about football. I apologize. Btw, I'm not going to say anything about where I think Lebron ranks in this comment (you can look up past threads Ive started regarding that). I will just say this.

Case 1:5 years ago it was debated if Tom Brady was the #1 QB all time with others saying Montana, Marino, Manning, etc...) Fast forward five years he now has more championships than any QB. Now, its safe to say the majority consider him the GOAT.

Case 2: Jerry Rice vs Randy Moss. This will always be a debate. Jerry Rice has the insurmountable stats, the championships, and is considered by most to be the greatest Wide receiver. However, Randy Moss was the most physically dominant Wide receiver whoever played the game who made it look easy throughout his career (who didn't have the consistency of having a great QB throughout his career), he has the stats as well, but not the championships and was accused for lack of heart at times. But some will say Moss was the GOAT period.

Case 3: Emmitt Smith vs Barry Sanders: Very similar to Moss vs Rice (but in a reverse sort of way). However, despite Emmitt Smith having the rings, and being #1 in all time rushing yards. Most experts will tell you if you watched Barry Sanders play he was better (and arguably the best).

Jordan and Lebron fit into all of these examples. Depending on how Lebron finishes his twilight years will determine the outcome.

[ThoseBackPages]

Does anybody really know what time it is?

[dasiegel]

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

Does it really matter where anyone ranks any player?

no but then in theory does it even really matter what happens in any game or season? it's a talking point and makes it fun. i'll give you that on this forum it's like the 100th time we've have this "fun."

[Jasondr91]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

Does anybody really know what time it is?

It's Donovan Mitchell redemption time!

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by Jasondr91

It's Donovan Mitchell redemption time!

[pip33tomj23]

One of the issues with Lebron, in my opinion, is also one of his biggest strengths. His ability to play 1-3 on offense and can guard 1-5 on defense. How do you build a team around a guy that has no defined role?

Is he going to be the PG tonight, or the SG, or the SF? It's not like Cleveland hasn't been trying.

These roles were defined on all of the other greats that are considered top 10, and not as clearcut for James. I think if he had more of a defined role like most players take, he would have had more team success.

Instead, it's made both franchises he's played with dependent on him completely and have to immediately rebuild when he leaves. It's selfish, IMO.

I don't personally like the guy or the way he plays, but appreciate how good he is. (Bully ball is lame... I'd rather watch Olajuwon than Shaq... and don't kid yourself, Lebron's off arm should be leading the league in offensive fouls every single year)

He's had too many moments that are head scratchers to say he is the GOAT. The finals versus Dallas is one of them, the flopping is another, etc...

That being said, I have it like this... (and I exclude players from the 60's and earlier for a variety of reasons)

#1 - MJ
#2 - Kareem
#3 - LeBron
#4 - Magic
#5 - Tim Duncan

[Scottish Punk]

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

Does it really matter where anyone ranks any player?

I am with you, I really hate ranking players. No one is really ever wrong or right and it is just subjective opinion. The only thing worse is "GOAT" conversations. I get they are great for debating and all. I just like to put people in tiers and not get into the whole 1-5 deal. Lebron will be one of the top end HOFers when it is said and done - along with Jordan, Bird, Magic, Wilt, etc.. I know boring.

[GC1980]

Originally Posted by Scottish Punk

I am with you, I really hate ranking players. No one is really ever wrong or right and it is just subjective opinion. The only thing worse is "GOAT" conversations. I get they are great for debating and all. I just like to put people in tiers and not get into the whole 1-5 deal. Lebron will be one of the top end HOFers when it is said and done - along with Jordan, Bird, Magic, Wilt, etc.. I know boring.

Boring but true. I get the arguing of the finer points that come up but what is crazy is everyone seems to agree that he is somewhere in the top 10. Everyone also seems to have all the same names in that group. From there it's all subjective and it's often a matter of what you value or who you have a deeper connection to as fan.

These threads just degenerate into the most biased on either side making a point, the other side either reiterating that point in an antagonizing, hyperbolic or overly simplistic manner to mock the point or twist to their viewpoint, rinse and repeat.

There is a bucket of guys that just separate from the pack. Those handful of players that reach heights even other truly all time greats like say Barkley, Malone, West etc fall short of. Whether its a combination of rings, stats or impact on the evolution of the game, its just something that puts certain names in a higher tier.

MJ, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Kareem, Shaq, Kobe, Wilt, Russell, Hakeem, Oscar and yes LBJ are all names that come to mind.

[titletowncards]

Remember that time LeBron checked out of the 2011 Finals vs. Dallas...Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Idk, never seen Jordan EVER check out of a series like that.
Did someone compare Jerry Rice to Randy Moss??????? Ur kidding right?

[bruce76]

Originally Posted by titletowncards

Remember that time LeBron checked out of the 2011 Finals vs. Dallas...Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Idk, never seen Jordan EVER check out of a series like that.
Did someone compare Jerry Rice to Randy Moss??????? Ur kidding right?

I guess you don't know sports.

[Orangejello727]

Originally Posted by jstasyk1121

This is legitimately the biggest issue I have...i fully understand he has lost 5x in the finals...how is that something to be penalized for...so if he was 3/3 with 3 finals mvps...he would somehow be viewed better if he just lost in the 1st/2nd/3rd rounds a bunch of other times...especially in guys like bird...he made what...5 finals...went 3-2..how is 3-2 and like 9 non-finals seasons better than 3-5 and 7 non finals seasons...in a longer career as well...its so frustrating...what if Jordan made 2 or 3 more after 2nd retirement and lost in finals instead of doing noth8ng with Wash...then he would be 6-2 or 6-3...thats not worse!!! That's 3 more times that he made the title round!!! LeBron making the championship round 8x is somehow worse then if he was simply jist 3 for 3 which is insane to me

Football for yrs people would say "Montana 4/4 is Vetter than Brady 4/6 since Joe never lost the SB"...uhh yea that's beyond stupid...brady made 2 more super bowls (at the time) in no way is making the Superbowl and losing worse than losing in the divisional round or not making playoffs at all...

Coming runner up is a form fitted argument to favor Lebron because has has that going for him. I never understood why so man fans consider coming in 2nd place and losing to the championship team an accolade or an accomplishment. There is no accomplishment in losing to the championship team. But for some reason, Lebron is acclaimed greatness for losing in championship match up more than winning them? I mean who does that? Who considers 2nd place winning?

You think they talk legendary status for Jim Kelly because he made the superbowl so many times and didnt win? Do you put him in the status of Brady and Montana? I mean hes been to the superbowl quite a few times right?

[titletowncards]

Originally Posted by bruce76

I guess you don't know sports.

Jerry Rice is the best non-QB Football player of All-Time.
Was Moss more physically gifted, yeah but who cares.
Terrell Owens has similar stats to Moss, is he better than Rice too?

[hawkeyecards]

Originally Posted by rhigh2390

Agreed.

Athleticism= Way Up
Basketball IQ= Way Down

Easiest way to put it.

HA.

Could anyone from the past even keep up with the NBA today? No.

Quit living in the past of how "great" the NBA once was.

[buckunteer]

I don't understand why people can't differentiate talent/ability from basketball player. They're two different things. What Lebron can do at his size is literally unprecedented. His size and skill set make him the most gifted to play the game, but it doesn't make him the best player. That said, he's still right around the top 5, which is pretty phenomenal...not sure why that's not enough?