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View Poll Results: Right now, where do you rank Lebron all time?
GOAT 149 25.91%
#2 212 36.87%
#3 70 12.17%
#4 37 6.43%
#5 30 5.22%
Oustide Top 5 77 13.39%
Voters: 575. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-28-2018, 01:29 AM   #751
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Haha, in the last 8 years he's 64% against the West and that key player was suspended 1 game, lol. He lead both teams in all 5 major statistical categories. Probably the greatest individual accomplishment I have seen in the Finals. I don't know what could possibly top that. And that's against a big bad scary West team and not the D League East. So what's your excuse for that?
You do realize 64% winning percentage gets you a 2nd round date with GS in the West right?

Or a Spurs a few years back or an OKC with Westbrook and KD a couple of seasons back.

The East is trash. At least there's finally some teams on the up in Boston and Philly. Damn has it been terrible.
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Old 05-28-2018, 01:37 AM   #752
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You do realize 64% winning percentage gets you a 2nd round date with GS in the West right?

Or a Spurs a few years back or an OKC with Westbrook and KD a couple of seasons back.

The East is trash. At least there's finally some teams on the up in Boston and Philly. Damn has it been terrible.
Donít bother with logic man.

Lebron is the best because lebron is the best. 🧐
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Old 05-28-2018, 01:40 AM   #753
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You do realize 64% winning percentage gets you a 2nd round date with GS in the West right?

Or a Spurs a few years back or an OKC with Westbrook and KD a couple of seasons back.

The East is trash. At least there's finally some teams on the up in Boston and Philly. Damn has it been terrible.
That's over an 8 year period. No one, except the Spurs and maybe the Warriors have a 64% wining percentage in the west over the last 8 years.
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Old 05-28-2018, 01:46 AM   #754
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That's over an 8 year period. No one, except the Spurs and maybe the Warriors have a 64% wining percentage in the west over the last 8 years.
What is lebrons winning percentage vs the West in the playoffs in games played?

Also letís play pick up games with legacy on the line. So one dude won 6 times lost zero.

Now I start playing and canít win, so I change teams with really good players on it. Still canít win, but win the next two years, but sadly lose again. Now I switch teams again and win another! Iím better than that other guy (lebron fan logic)
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Old 05-28-2018, 01:48 AM   #755
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Lebron headed to another finals where they are gonna lose again.

So he's looking at 9 NBA Finals appearances with a 3-6 record.

Don't know how you can consider Lebron to be the GOAT with a winning percentage of .333 in the NBA Finals.

He's a great player, and certainly one of the top 10 or 5 ever, but not the GOAT.
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Old 05-28-2018, 01:49 AM   #756
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What is lebrons winning percentage vs the West in the playoffs in games played?

Also letís play pick up games with legacy on the line. So one dude won 6 times lost zero.

Now I start playing and canít win, so I change teams with really good players on it. Still canít win, but win the next two years, but sadly lose again. Now I switch teams again and win another! Iím better than that other guy (lebron fan logic)
Lmao. So what is his record against the very best team in the west is what you're asking?
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Old 05-28-2018, 01:51 AM   #757
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Lmao. So what is his record against the very best team in the west is what you're asking?


AGAinst the very best team in the east. Why is this unfair?
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Old 05-28-2018, 01:51 AM   #758
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MJ was the best offensive player in the league and the best defensive in the league....at the same time. Scoring title, DPOY. 6 rings. 5 MVPS.

Russell won 11 rings

Wilt averaged 50 points a game and 20 rebounds.

Magic was in the Finals in 9 out of his 12 full seasons and he was forced to retire early at age 31 because of illness. Certainly would have done more with an extra 5 or so years.

Kareem has 6 MVPS and 6 Rings, NBA's all time leading scorer. 11 plus rebounds and almost 3 blocks a game.

I suppose all this stuff that Lebron never did becomes irrelevant because Lebron averages 27/7/7 for his career and gets to the Finals 8 times in a row. We are slaves to the moment.
If you go back to page 30 and read my posts, I very much am an advocate for some of those older players and resumes. I think when talking GOAT there is this quick rush to judgment that is ignorant of the fact hoops existed before MJ.

So I agree with a significant part of your post.

The part I don't understand is the part on LeBron. It comes off as disingenuous. Most of the others you point out an extensive resume, where Lebron you point out some game day averages and dismiss going to the finals 8 times like everyone does it. There are things LeBron never did, but there are a lot of things he did that rival those you mention, that were not mentioned.

Strictly comparing to Jordan, here are some other things- Jordan was all D 9 times, LeBron 5. But LeBron has 1 more all-NBA honor and career not over. Jordan had 5 MPVs, LeBron 4. Jordan won 6 titles and it's often talked about that he was 6-0 in finals. LeBron is in what, his 8th or 9th finals, and all you hear about is the losses. But think about this irony- that means Jordan lost more before even getting to the finals but takes not heat compared to LeBron whose losses came in the finals. Somehow we are led to believe losing in the finals is worst than losing in earlier rounds when this argument is brought up.

I have been an advocate that for a number of reasons, I don't think there is a GOAT, I think there are GOATS. And all those you mention above have resumes deserving of inclusion in that discussion, including LeBron.
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Old 05-28-2018, 01:53 AM   #759
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AGAinst the very best team in the east. Why is this unfair?
Because it's not relevant to how strong a conference is. It just shows how great the best team in the West is.
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Old 05-28-2018, 01:55 AM   #760
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the best I can equate for Lebron is John Elway.

They were the team. Elway took Bronco teams to the SB that weren't that good to be honest, only to get destroyed by better teams like the Giants, Redskins, and 49ers.

but then Denver formed a super team and won in 97 and 98.

Elway finished 2-3 in the SB.

While some argued that he was the GOAT, most have him top 5, but certainly not the GOAT, not over Montana or Brady.

Lebron is the same. He's top 5-10, but not the GOAT. Not over Jordan.
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Old 05-28-2018, 01:56 AM   #761
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If you go back to page 30 and read my posts, I very much am an advocate for some of those older players and resumes. I think when talking GOAT there is this quick rush to judgment that is ignorant of the fact hoops existed before MJ.

So I agree with a significant part of your post.

The part I don't understand is the part on LeBron. It comes off as disingenuous. Most of the others you point out an extensive resume, where Lebron you point out some game day averages and dismiss going to the finals 8 times like everyone does it. There are things LeBron never did, but there are a lot of things he did that rival those you mention, that were not mentioned.

I have been an advocate that for a number of reasons, I don't think there is a GOAT, I think there are GOATS. And all those you mention above have resumes deserving of inclusion in that discussion, including LeBron.
The problem is Jordan is the standard. His standard is nearly
Perfect. Almost possible to measure up to And lebron was already out of contention early in his career.

So when u call yourself chosen one and have people calling you goat he gets measured against the standard of Jordan.

This thread would have an entirely different tone if the theme was lebron is an all time great. Which I agree with.
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Old 05-28-2018, 01:59 AM   #762
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Because it's not relevant to how strong a conference is. It just shows how great the best team in the West is.

Over an 8 year span is a pretty good sample size. However Iíve already given you the stat of the amount of 50 win teams lebron has beaten in the playoffs and that wasnít comprehended so it doesnít matter what evidence is provided.
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Old 05-28-2018, 02:00 AM   #763
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So winning a finals against a 73 win team and leading both teams in points, assists, rebounds, steals, and blocks is because the game changed and not because he's incredible? It's crazy to hate a man that much that you can't even give him credit it when it's so clearly due.
Lebron is GREAT. Lebron has amazing stats and achievements. Lebron has also played some of the worst teams in playoff history. Lebron put up great numbers against horrible teams. Iím too lazy to know the total number of potential hall of famers he beat in the playoffs and finals in these 8 years but I would guess maybe 7-8 in that span, and maybe 1 (Duncan) of the best players to ever play the game. Durant and Steph will likely be there also but Jordan beat 7-8 hall of famers every year. And usually 3-5 of the best players to ever play the game
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Old 05-28-2018, 02:01 AM   #764
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Lebron headed to another finals where they are gonna lose again.

So he's looking at 9 NBA Finals appearances with a 3-6 record.

Don't know how you can consider Lebron to be the GOAT with a winning percentage of .333 in the NBA Finals.

He's a great player, and certainly one of the top 10 or 5 ever, but not the GOAT.
Yes, Jordan is 6-0, LeBron likely 3-6.

So Jordan needs credit for winning more titles.

However, what is never mentioned is this means Jordan also lost a heckuva lot more in earlier rounds. Meaning somehow we are supposed to believe that losing in the finals is worse than losing in earlier rounds. The logic just makes no sense.
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Old 05-28-2018, 02:06 AM   #765
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Yes, Jordan is 6-0, LeBron likely 3-6.

So Jordan needs credit for winning more titles.

However, what is never mentioned is this means Jordan also lost a heckuva lot more in earlier rounds. Meaning somehow we are supposed to believe that losing in the finals is worse than losing in earlier rounds. The logic just makes no sense.
Again weak eastern conference in lebrons era.

What I havenít seen someone mention was Jordan 3 peated....twice.
And if ur not winning championships ur losing. Now I think it could be taken into account if lebron was 6-0 and made it deeper in the playoffs than Jordan. Then I can see why you would bring that up.
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Old 05-28-2018, 02:09 AM   #766
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This thread would have an entirely different tone if the theme was lebron is an all time great. Which I agree with.
The theme of the thread is where do you rank Lebron all time? It's not titled, Lebron is GOAT.
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Old 05-28-2018, 02:11 AM   #767
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The problem is Jordan is the standard. His standard is nearly
Perfect. Almost possible to measure up to And lebron was already out of contention early in his career.

So when u call yourself chosen one and have people calling you goat he gets measured against the standard of Jordan.

This thread would have an entirely different tone if the theme was lebron is an all time great. Which I agree with.
There is no problem to measuring against the standard of Jordan (or Wilt, or Magic, or Jabbar, or the other guys you mentioned).

The problem I have is that while objectively LeBron's resume and accomplishments stand up with any of those, there is a significant portion of people in Jordan camp that are blind to it.

This is a cliff notes version of the conversation I had with a Jordan guy, a friend of mine.

Him- Jordan went 6-0
Me- Ok, that means he lost more in earlier rounds than LeBron. You telling me it's better to lose in earlier rounds than the finals
Him- well, his team sucked early on
Me- did you look at the roster LeBron had when Cleveland first went to the finals vs. SA?
Him- well Jordan never quit on his team mates
Me- so those 3 years when he left hoops all together to play baseball amid what many feel was a gambling probe does not count
Him- well if you put him on the playground, there is no way LeBron can cover Jordan
Me- you are right, Jordan is going to run circles around him. But are you telling me that say Jabbar or Russell is not going to just post Jordan up every time or LeBron is going to outmuscle Jordan? Jordan would not be the physical match for either
Him- well, Russell was just a tall skinny guy. If Jordan had todays training methods, diet, etc. he would be more physically able to compete with those guys

Me- so if Jordan could have access to todays methods, that means Russell would too, right? He's not going to be 215 lbs, he would be 265. Remember back then lifting weights was considered bad for hoops players.

Him- Well, Jordan never had to jump teams to win
Me- you are right, because he had one of the other top 50 guys playing with him a majority of his career, and another HOFer in Rodman for a decent part. They also had a guy in Kukoc that was perennial in running for 6th man of the year, and he played most of his career with a guy who is thought by many to be the best coach of all time and in the top 2-3 in literally everyone's book. Exactly which coach has LeBron played for that would be mistaken for a great one?

Him- I gotta go.....


That's a typical discussion with Jordan guys who won't budge. Literally you can use their logic to point out things, and they still want nothing to hear of it.

Jordan was great. Elite. Deserves every bit of recognition he has received. But to think he's this GOAT all in a pasture by himself, well, that I just don't see. There are a handful of others whose resumes, eye test, and accomplishments mean they deserve to be in that pasture too. The idea that Jordan was the untouchable undisputed best ever I just don't see.
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Old 05-28-2018, 02:16 AM   #768
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There is no problem to measuring against the standard of Jordan (or Wilt, or Magic, or Jabbar, or the other guys you mentioned).

The problem I have is that while objectively LeBron's resume and accomplishments stand up with any of those, there is a significant portion of people in Jordan camp that are blind to it.

This is a cliff notes version of the conversation I had with a Jordan guy, a friend of mine.

Him- Jordan went 6-0
Me- Ok, that means he lost more in earlier rounds than LeBron. You telling me it's better to lose in earlier rounds than the finals
Him- well, his team sucked early on
Me- did you look at the roster LeBron had when Cleveland first went to the finals vs. SA?
Him- well Jordan never quit on his team mates
Me- so those 3 years when he left hoops all together to play baseball amid what many feel was a gambling probe does not count
Him- well if you put him on the playground, there is no way LeBron can cover Jordan
Me- you are right, Jordan is going to run circles around him. But are you telling me that say Jabbar or Russell is not going to just post Jordan up every time or LeBron is going to outmuscle Jordan? Jordan would not be the physical match for either
Him- well, Russell was just a tall skinny guy. If Jordan had todays training methods, diet, etc. he would be more physically able to compete with those guys

Me- so if Jordan could have access to todays methods, that means Russell would too, right? He's not going to be 215 lbs, he would be 265. Remember back then lifting weights was considered bad for hoops players.

Him- I gotta go.....


That's a typical discussion with Jordan guys who won't budge. Literally you can use their logic to point out things, and they still want nothing to hear of it.

Jordan was great. Elite. Deserves every bit of recognition he has received. But to think he's this GOAT all in a pasture by himself, well, that I just don't see. There are a handful of others whose resumes, eye test, and accomplishments mean they deserve to be in that pasture too. The idea that Jordan was the untouchable undisputed best ever I just don't see.

You mean when you ignore the fact that the eastern conference is weak?

And Kobe could cover lebron very well...why do u think Jordan couldnít. Letís take a peak at the forgotten Kobe.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5X-VaAqPqmY
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Old 05-28-2018, 02:19 AM   #769
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You mean when you ignore the fact that the eastern conference is weak?

And Kobe could cover lebron very well...why do u think Jordan couldn’t. Let’s take a peak at the forgotten Kobe.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5X-VaAqPqmY
You are using All-Star game footage to try and prove a point? I'm all for a good debate, but highlight tapes of an exhibition game probably not a good thing to base conclusions off of.
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Old 05-28-2018, 02:25 AM   #770
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You mentioned covering on playground. I don’t know why all star game footage where they are going one on one without lebron begging for a pick and roll would help paint the picture that it would be very possible to cover lebron one on one.

Look at what Kobe is doing forcing lebron left where he likes to shoot. Kobe and Jordan prey on weaknesses like that.
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Old 05-28-2018, 02:35 AM   #771
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You mentioned covering on playground. I donít know why all star game footage where they are going one on one without lebron begging for a pick and roll would help paint the picture that it would be very possible to cover lebron one on one.

Look at what Kobe is doing forcing lebron left where he likes to shoot. Kobe and Jordan prey on weaknesses like that.
IVe seen video highlights of John Starks dunking over Jordan but I'm not going to claim that means it's a good matchup for Starks.
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Old 05-28-2018, 02:40 AM   #772
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Old 05-28-2018, 02:49 AM   #773
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IVe seen video highlights of John Starks dunking over Jordan but I'm not going to claim that means it's a good matchup for Starks.
TAle a look at all the videos of Kobe vs lebron and tell
Me that lebron consistently over powers Kobe?

Speaks volumes about Kobe. One on one no pick and roll and screens where lebron gets switched on curry or the lil 5í5Ē Boston guy.

I got my money on Kobe. Which means I would have my money on Jordan. Which is kind of absurd given lebrons height and weight. But no I donít think lebron would beat mj or Kobe one on one
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Old 05-28-2018, 02:54 AM   #774
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Yes, Jordan is 6-0, LeBron likely 3-6.

So Jordan needs credit for winning more titles.

However, what is never mentioned is this means Jordan also lost a heckuva lot more in earlier rounds. Meaning somehow we are supposed to believe that losing in the finals is worse than losing in earlier rounds. The logic just makes no sense.
You reckon Jordan would have struggled with the Pacers, Raptors and Celtics this season?
I mean, a young Jordan hung 63 on a prime Celtics squad on their court. But yeah that's totally fair to say that MJ lost more in the early rounds

LeBron just got 18 more playoff games in vs teams that have 0 future HOFers. That's a lot more towards the all time counting stats for Bron.

I wonder how my boy TD and the Spurs would have gone through the East the last 8 seasons? I can't help but think we'd also have 8 Finals appearances but we'd have more rings to show for it.



We all know Jordan played better teams as a young guy than LeBron has had to his whole career in the East. Or are you of the opinion the G. Arenas lead Wiz were legit?
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Old 05-28-2018, 02:56 AM   #775
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You mean when you ignore the fact that the eastern conference is weak?

And Kobe could cover lebron very well...why do u think Jordan couldn’t. Let’s take a peak at the forgotten Kobe.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5X-VaAqPqmY
I was impressed with how Baynes guarded LeBron at times. Forced him in to some average looking jumpshots. You'd think he'd blow by him. So I would guess Jordan would take on the challenge.
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