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View Poll Results: Right now, where do you rank Lebron all time?
GOAT 149 25.91%
#2 212 36.87%
#3 70 12.17%
#4 37 6.43%
#5 30 5.22%
Oustide Top 5 77 13.39%
Voters: 575. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-10-2018, 10:59 AM   #426
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Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
Not this garbage again

Kareem Abdul Jabbar FG% 55.9%
Effective FG% 55.9%

By your logic Kareem is better than both Jordan and LeBron. Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that Jabbar took most of his shots inside 10 feet. 36% of LeBron's shots are inside 3 feet. Outside 3 feet he is a 37.6% shooter for his career. The false claim that LeBron is a good shooter is absurd.
I don't care if a guy shoots 20% from mid range if he is only taking 1 a game and getting the rest of his looks at the basket. All that matters is total shooting value, shot selection is a part of that. It doesn't matter if Lebron is a good shooter, like at all. What matters is that he has been a very efficient scorer. Just like how Demarcus Cousins is somehow better than other centers just because he shoots and misses a lot but from different ranges!
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:05 AM   #427
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I've already ended this thread and everyone keeps trying to make some complicated argument with advanced stats to justify a take on Lebron being # 1. The matrix is so simple. With comparable teammates canceling each other out, there's no way MJ loses a game 7 to Lebron. His competitiveness and will to win was maniacal and unmatched, that's why it doesn't matter what Lebron accomplishes, MJ isnt losing that game.
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:05 AM   #428
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Lol the writer has to base his argument on a stat he made up. "Championships added".... really??? Whatever they can use to discount losing 5 times. I'll tell you the stat for "Championships added." MJ added 6, Lebron added 3. Also not sure how winning 3 and losing 5 is a "better career" than winning 6 and losing none, but whatever people want to believe. ESPN always has an agenda to push
lol, weird times we live in
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:09 AM   #429
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wow damn..thanks for sharing this. I forget James ended Pacers playoff hopes
5x..and celtics and bulls 4 times...it really reminds me how many opponents hes had who couldn't get through him.

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Originally Posted by pgisback View Post
What a treat when the first thing you see when you get on the Internet is a front page article titled.

LeBron or MJ? How the King is settling the GOAT debate

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/2...nba-player-all

I thought this statement was pretty funny and fits this thread.

ďThe respective camps in the Jordan-LeBron debate reach their most frenzied pitch when they discuss which player had a harder time dominating in his era. To hear Jordan's supporters tell it, defenders were allowed open fisticuffs to prevent him from getting to the basket. Meanwhile, James' defenders would have you believe that Jordan was beating five guys from the Y to win his championships.Ē
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:10 AM   #430
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I've already ended this thread and everyone keeps trying to make some complicated argument with advanced stats to justify a take on Lebron being # 1. The matrix is so simple. With comparable teammates canceling each other out, there's no way MJ loses a game 7 to Lebron. His competitiveness and will to win was maniacal and unmatched, that's why it doesn't matter what Lebron accomplishes, MJ isnt losing that game.
What Lebron has been doing in the playoffs the last 3 years has completely disproved what you just wrote about competitiveness. The 2016 Finals, in my opinion, is the greatest individual accomplishment in NBA history. Took on a 73 win team, defending champs, and lead both teams in all 5 major categories for an improbable championship. Insane!!
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:12 AM   #431
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What Lebron has been doing in the playoffs the last 3 years has completely disproved what you just wrote about competitiveness. The 2016 Finals, in my opinion, is the greatest individual accomplishment in NBA history. Took on a 73 win team, defending champs, and lead both teams in all 5 major categories. Insane!!
This performance is somehow overlooked too often. Simply incredible to accomplish that IN THE NBA FINALS.
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:14 AM   #432
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THe article basically explains what we’ve been saying and weren’t able to articulate so we’ve just been arguing for 18 pages.

Best to best Jordan is better
Overall career due to longevity and never getting hurt, Lebron can be considered as having the better career
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:17 AM   #433
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So it depends on your definition of what greatest is

About 1/5 posters think Lebron is the best. Given the demographic of this board I’m shocked it isn’t higher to be honest.

The board is fairly young.
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:18 AM   #434
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What Lebron has been doing in the playoffs the last 3 years has completely disproved what you just wrote about competitiveness. The 2016 Finals, in my opinion, is the greatest individual accomplishment in NBA history. Took on a 73 win team, defending champs, and lead both teams in all 5 major categories for an improbable championship. Insane!!
it was amazing, and what I always wish LBJ would aspire to...but it doesn't disprove anything. I didn't say Lebron wasn't competitive, but no one is as competitive as MJ was. And lest ye forget, it was Kyrie who who shouldered just as much of that crunch time bucket load in 2016.
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:19 AM   #435
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This performance is somehow overlooked too often. Simply incredible to accomplish that IN THE NBA FINALS.
Yea, it's unreal. And on top of it, the team that beat the Bulls single season record. After game 4, Lebron was like +1100 to win the series. Greatest individual performance I've seen for sure. And it's ridiculous when people question his competitiveness after seeing that.
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:20 AM   #436
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In a one on one game to 21, who do you take?

In a game of HORSE, who do you take?

Who had the better teammates by year?

Who has made the most clutch shots?

Who has missed the most clutch shots?

If you were building an All-NBA team and had the first overall pick, who would you take?

I personally would take the legendary LeBron Jordan, but that’s just me.
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:26 AM   #437
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Lebron never lost in the 1st round. Jordan did 3 times.

Lebron made all his finals appearances with different coaches and supporting casts.
Jordan only made the finals when Pippen was there and Jackson was coach.

Lebron never played with a coaches will ever make the HOF. Jordan had a top 50 player and perhaps greatest all-time coach in Phil Jackson.

Lebron made the finals on different ocassions with different casts or #2 players and different coaches. Jordan never made it past the first round without Pippen, but Pippen made the semis and conference finals without Jordan in other teams and even with the Bulls.

None of Lebron's coaches made the finals without Lebron. Phil Jackson won 5 rings without Jordan.

Kyrie without Lebron in Cavs, 21,24, 33 wins. Pippen without Jordan in Bulls 55 wins.

Lebron in Cavs before Kyrie - 35, 42, 50, 50, 45, 66, 61 wins. Jordan in Bulls before Pippen - 38, 30, 40 wins.

Cavs after Lebron left first time - from 61 wins to 19 wins. Heat after Lebron left - from 54 wins to 37 wins. Bulls after Jordan left first time - from 57 wins to 55 wins.

Jordan's championship prominent teammates - Pippen is HOFer and top 50 greatest player, Rodman is HOFer and had 2 rings and 2 defensive player of the year titles even before meeting Jordan.

Lebron's prominent teammates success after Lebron - none made conference finals. Jordan's prominent teammates success after Jordan - Pippen had 55 wins and conference semis, and made conference finals with Portland and Houston. Horace Grant made NBA Finals with Magic.

The only argument people like to parrot about Jordan is his 6-0 finals record. But you don't count his missed playoffs or first round losses? It's better to lose in the NBA finals than in the first round. So reality is - Jordan's record is 6-15, not close to Russell's 11 of 13. If people say Russell played in an 8 team league, then we can take Kareem. His 6-5 record in the finals is ultimately better than Jordan's 6-0. At the end of the day, the only stat Jordan fanatics have in his favor is that 6-0 record which is a false argument.

People have another false perception of Lebron not being clutch or a go-to guy. Well, according to stats: Go-ahead baskets with 5-seconds or less in playoff games? Jordan retired at 5 of 11. Lebron is already at 7 of 14. Career playoff buzzer beaters? Jordan is 3, Lebron is 5. Moreoever, Jordan has never hit a 3-pointer buzzer beater. So where is the argument that "well who would you want to take the last shot Lebron or MJ?" - truth is if you need a 3, MJ would be the last guy I'll take.

So at the end of the day, the numbers don't like. Lebron is greater than Jordan.

But if the only number that floats your boat and you care about is 6-0, that you can pick Jordan all you want if it makes you happy.
Pretty much everything I needed to say (cut out the areas I didnít agree with). Think that buzzer beater count has gone up since this post but I could be wrong.
I would have added LeBron has only been favorited 2 times out of 8. Itís funny how the people preaching that LeBron plays with such great teammates, are the same people complaining about how those same teammates and teams would be dumpster fires if he leaves. Isnít that contradictive? Talk about irony.
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:44 AM   #438
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Originally Posted by pgisback View Post
What Lebron has been doing in the playoffs the last 3 years has completely disproved what you just wrote about competitiveness. The 2016 Finals, in my opinion, is the greatest individual accomplishment in NBA history. Took on a 73 win team, defending champs, and lead both teams in all 5 major categories for an improbable championship. Insane!!
And when the championship was on the line, LeBron missed 4 shots in a row. It was a good thing that Kyrie bailed him out and won game 7 with his clutch shot.
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:44 AM   #439
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Originally Posted by 6celtics33 View Post
So it depends on your definition of what greatest is

About 1/5 posters think Lebron is the best. Given the demographic of this board Iím shocked it isnít higher to be honest.

The board is fairly young.
I was thinking the same thing.
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:44 AM   #440
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Someone explain to me the differing numbers on the clutch stats. One thing I saw said Jordan was 9/18 and Lebron was 5/47 or something. Now MJ has 5 and Lebron has 7/15, poster above said 7/14

Can’t all be true. Which is it?
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:45 AM   #441
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And when the championship was on the line, LeBron missed 4 shots in a row. It was a good thing that Kyrie bailed him out and won game 7 with his clutch shot.
Or when it was Lebron clanking that led to Bosh getting a rebound and finding Ray Allen for the 3 against the Spurs. Those bum teammates again.
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:47 AM   #442
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Someone explain to me the differing numbers on the clutch stats. One thing I saw said Jordan was 9/18 and Lebron was 5/47 or something. Now MJ has 5 and Lebron has 7/15, poster above said 7/14

Canít all be true. Which is it?
I've seen both sets of numbers too. The definition of "clutch" changes depending on who you are trying to make look better lol.
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:49 AM   #443
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I've seen both sets of numbers too. The definition of "clutch" changes depending on who you are trying to make look better lol.
I know itís a moving target they use to inflate Lebron

If anyone watched both and can say with a straight face that Lebron is more clutch than MJ, well good luck I guess, to each their own.
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:50 AM   #444
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Originally Posted by jick View Post
Lebron never lost in the 1st round. Jordan did 3 times.

Lebron made all his finals appearances with different coaches and supporting casts.
Jordan only made the finals when Pippen was there and Jackson was coach.

Lebron never played with a 50 Greatest Player of all-time (Pippen) and none of his coaches will ever make the HOF. Jordan had a top 50 player and perhaps greatest all-time coach in Phil Jackson.

Lebron made the finals on different ocassions with different casts or #2 players and different coaches. Jordan never made it past the first round without Pippen, but Pippen made the semis and conference finals without Jordan in other teams and even with the Bulls.

None of Lebron's coaches made the finals without Lebron. Phil Jackson won 5 rings without Jordan.

Kyrie without Lebron in Cavs, 21,24, 33 wins. Pippen without Jordan in Bulls 55 wins.

Lebron in Cavs before Kyrie - 35, 42, 50, 50, 45, 66, 61 wins. Jordan in Bulls before Pippen - 38, 30, 40 wins.

Cavs after Lebron left first time - from 61 wins to 19 wins. Heat after Lebron left - from 54 wins to 37 wins. Bulls after Jordan left first time - from 57 wins to 55 wins.

Lebron's Championships prominent teammates - Wade, Allen and Bosh are HOFers locks, Kyrie may never be one (he'll be just like Webber and Penny - derailed by injuries), and Love probably not. Jordan's championship prominent teammates - Pippen is HOFer and top 50 greatest player, Rodman is HOFer and had 2 rings and 2 defensive player of the year titles even before meeting Jordan.

Lebron's prominent teammates success after Lebron - none made conference finals. Jordan's prominent teammates success after Jordan - Pippen had 55 wins and conference semis, and made conference finals with Portland and Houston. Horace Grant made NBA Finals with Magic.

The only argument people like to parrot about Jordan is his 6-0 finals record. But you don't count his missed playoffs or first round losses? It's better to lose in the NBA finals than in the first round. So reality is - Jordan's record is 6-15, not close to Russell's 11 of 13. If people say Russell played in an 8 team league, then we can take Kareem. His 6-5 record in the finals is ultimately better than Jordan's 6-0. At the end of the day, the only stat Jordan fanatics have in his favor is that 6-0 record which is a false argument.

People have another false perception of Lebron not being clutch or a go-to guy. Well, according to stats: Go-ahead baskets with 5-seconds or less in playoff games? Jordan retired at 5 of 11. Lebron is already at 7 of 14. Career playoff buzzer beaters? Jordan is 3, Lebron is 5. Moreoever, Jordan has never hit a 3-pointer buzzer beater. So where is the argument that "well who would you want to take the last shot Lebron or MJ?" - truth is if you need a 3, MJ would be the last guy I'll take.

So at the end of the day, the numbers don't like. Lebron is greater than Jordan.

But if the only number that floats your boat and you care about is 6-0, that you can pick Jordan all you want if it makes you happy.
I have to say...this is one of the most complete sets of arguments I've seen presented in a forum, absolute beautiful work

Irrelevant of where I stand, I enjoy what you presented
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:50 AM   #445
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I know itís a moving target they use to inflate Jordan
FIFY.
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:53 AM   #446
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FIFY.
Explain what you mean instead of fixing something that doesnít need fixing.
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:55 AM   #447
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Originally Posted by BBallCT View Post
I have to say...this is one of the most complete sets of arguments I've seen presented in a forum, absolute beautiful work

Irrelevant of where I stand, I enjoy what you presented
I agree. Sound points made by Jick to support LeBron’s case. I’m surprised none of the people in favor of MJ are responding to it.
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:55 AM   #448
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Explain what you mean instead of fixing something that doesnít need fixing.
Same to you. Stats were posted that support both being "more clutch" and you(as always) simply dismissed one set of stats with nothing to back it up.

So I did the same.
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:55 AM   #449
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I have to say...this is one of the most complete sets of arguments I've seen presented in a forum, absolute beautiful work

Irrelevant of where I stand, I enjoy what you presented
He ignored Wade as a top 50 player and ignored the go ahead ultimate game winner during the flu game on the road. Do those count or no?

This is what I mean by moving target.

Sliding the data to fit exactly what youíre saying.

I guess Lebron didnít have a top 50 teammate when the list was done in 96.
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:55 AM   #450
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I agree. Sound points made by Jick to support LeBronís case. Iím surprised none of the people in favor of MJ are responding to it.
Why on Earth does that surprise you?
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