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View Poll Results: Right now, where do you rank Lebron all time?
GOAT 148 25.87%
#2 211 36.89%
#3 70 12.24%
#4 37 6.47%
#5 30 5.24%
Oustide Top 5 76 13.29%
Voters: 572. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-10-2018, 11:59 AM   #451
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Definitely some good arguments by Jick.

I would amend one thing he said though. Dwayne Wade might not have been on the NBA's greatest 50 list, but he would be if it was done today. Also, Lebron has played with more HOFers than MJ did. Bosh and Wade are 100% locks, and Kyrie and Love are both highly likely.
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Old 05-10-2018, 12:00 PM   #452
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Why on Earth does that surprise you?
So Jordan played with 1 top 50 player. Do you think Wade falls outside the top 50 or no? Anybody?
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Old 05-10-2018, 12:02 PM   #453
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So Jordan played with 1 top 50 player. Do you think Wade falls outside the top 50 or no? Anybody?
I took that part out of what I quoted. Can’t deny the team, players and coaches success without MJ. Both on the bulls and off. Feel free to quote jick with counter-arguments. I like hearing the debate (without the hate). Please lol
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Old 05-10-2018, 12:03 PM   #454
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I took that part out of what I quoted. Canít deny the team, players and coaches success without MJ. Both on the bulls and off. Feel free to quote jick with counter-arguments. I like hearing the debate (without the hate). Please lol
What hate am I spewing?
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Old 05-10-2018, 12:04 PM   #455
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Originally Posted by BlueXtreme View Post
I took that part out of what I quoted. Canít deny the team, players and coaches success without MJ. Both on the bulls and off. Feel free to quote jick with counter-arguments. I like hearing the debate (without the hate). Please lol
Wade led his team to a title and had as good a finals as Lebron ever has. Does his success count?
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Old 05-10-2018, 12:05 PM   #456
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http://www.espn.com/nba/playoffs/201...Performances-1
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Old 05-10-2018, 12:05 PM   #457
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What hate am I spewing?
Wasnít geared at you or anyone specificial. Really. I just know how debates get on here. I donít want to see it go that way and get personal. I just think Jickís great points have been ignored for too long. Well, the parts I included at least.
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Old 05-10-2018, 12:09 PM   #458
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The teammate aspect he posted includes a young Kyrie fresh to the league and compares it to a well oiled machine that had just won 3 titles. 55 wins or not they won 3 titles with Jordan and 3 more when he came back. Lost in the second round when he was gone. His argument lacks context.
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Old 05-10-2018, 12:10 PM   #459
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Wade led his team to a title and had as good a finals as Lebron ever has. Does his success count?
Jick said a lot more than just that and the 50 top players. But it seems to be the one everyone is harping on. Iím curious your take on the other things. I donít want to re-list them and make this thread even longer lol
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Old 05-10-2018, 12:12 PM   #460
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I’ll get into it thoroughly later and make my own list. I’m at work still.
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Old 05-10-2018, 12:12 PM   #461
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Lot of good points being brought up. Another reason I think Lebron gets the GOAT nod. Phil Jackson, greatest coach in NBA history, just like Bill Belichick, and Pop has a system that the Bulls perfected. MJ was like 22-29 in the playoffs before Phil. The Bulls winning 55 when he left was like the Patriots going 11-5 without Brady. MJ and Brady take the system to championship level, but without them the system is still successful. Lebron never had any of that. He's been successful with all sorts of different lineups and coaches. I think it's hilarious when people trash the East and how easy it is, yet Chris Bosh is now some super team level hall of famer after joining Lebron. Bosh couldn't even win a single playoff series in the East without Lebron, lol. So the disconnect in logic is all over the place with lebron haters.
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Old 05-10-2018, 12:15 PM   #462
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Lot of good points being brought up. Another reason I think Lebron gets the GOAT nod. Phil Jackson, greatest coach in NBA history, just like Bill Belichick, and Pop has a system that the Bulls perfected. MJ was like 22-29 in the playoffs before Phil. The Bulls winning 55 when he left was like the Patriots going 11-5 without Brady. MJ and Brady take the system to championship level, but without them the system is still successful. Lebron never had any of that. He's been successful with all sorts of different lineups and coaches. I think it's hilarious when people trash the East and how easy it is, yet Chris Bosh is now some super team level hall of famer after joining Lebron. Bosh couldn't even win a single playoff series in the East without Lebron, lol. So the disconnect in logic is all over the place with lebron haters.
so you are in the Montana > Brady camp?
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Old 05-10-2018, 12:18 PM   #463
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Originally Posted by 6celtics33 View Post
Iíll get into it thoroughly later and make my own list. Iím at work still.
Maybe just quote his and type next to it. I feel like all the good points are spread out of the 100 pages I have to cipher through
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Old 05-10-2018, 12:19 PM   #464
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so you are in the Montana > Brady camp?
Nah, Bill Walsh is no slouch either. They both had incredible coaches.
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Old 05-10-2018, 12:31 PM   #465
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I agree. Sound points made by Jick to support LeBronís case. Iím surprised none of the people in favor of MJ are responding to it.
If we respond, we're "hating and threatened by lebron." If we don't respond, "we don't have anything to counter the arguments."

You lebron homers need to decide together what you want. This debate has been beaten to death, and it's not even really a debate.
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Old 05-10-2018, 12:37 PM   #466
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If we respond, we're "hating and threatened by lebron." If we don't respond, "we don't have anything to counter the arguments."

You lebron homers need to decide together what you want. This debate has been beaten to death, and it's not even really a debate.
Lebron homers? I’m a basketball fan. And from an outside perspective, Idk how you can play victim. Most Lebron “homers” stay quiet because of all the flack they catch on here. But we are getting off tangent. Feel free to quote Jick with a counter-arguments of the other things if you’d like.
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Old 05-10-2018, 12:45 PM   #467
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I'm not sure how ESPN calculates "Championships added" but in the real world I am fairly certain that Michael Jordan added 6 championships and Lebron has added 3 so far. I guess I missed when Lebron earned that 4.48th championship ring to his collection lol.

I personally don't care who wants to call who the GOAT. It doesn't impact my feelings in any way and at this point I don't see it being even remotely close. Am I biased? 100% Can I right paragraphs intelligently pointing out why I think the way I do? Sure. Will it change anyone's mind? No it won't. I don't think a single mind has been changed despite 1000's of posts on this topic over the years. This threads happen every single time the playoffs roll around.

What I find hilarious are these types of "articles".
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Old 05-10-2018, 12:46 PM   #468
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What pgisback can’t grasp about the team concept is that the “system” helps the role players be better. Players like Love and Bosh got worse playing with Lebron because all they do is let him dribble 1 on 5. I’ve seen Lebron with many different coaches but that’s his offense all the time. So it will definitely produce things like him leading all the stats in 5 different categories and contribute to his own numbers but it doesn’t lend to the team winning. So someone that would know, has he ever been offered a system? Has he ever been banned from playing for coaches who run a system?

He made these decisions. Does he not deserve any of the blame for the coaches he’s had?
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Old 05-10-2018, 12:47 PM   #469
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I'm not sure how ESPN calculates "Championships added" but in the real world I am fairly certain that Michael Jordan added 6 championships and Lebron has added 3 so far. I guess I missed when Lebron earned that 4.48th championship ring to his collection lol.

I personally don't care who wants to call who the GOAT. It doesn't impact my feelings in any way and at this point I don't see it being even remotely close. Am I biased? 100% Can I right paragraphs intelligently pointing out why I think the way I do? Sure. Will it change anyone's mind? No it won't. I don't think a single mind has been changed despite 1000's of posts on this topic over the years. This threads happen every single time the playoffs roll around.

What I find hilarious are these types of "articles".
This, 100%
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Old 05-10-2018, 03:35 PM   #470
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Lot of good points being brought up. Another reason I think Lebron gets the GOAT nod. Phil Jackson, greatest coach in NBA history, just like Bill Belichick, and Pop has a system that the Bulls perfected. MJ was like 22-29 in the playoffs before Phil. The Bulls winning 55 when he left was like the Patriots going 11-5 without Brady. MJ and Brady take the system to championship level, but without them the system is still successful. Lebron never had any of that. He's been successful with all sorts of different lineups and coaches. I think it's hilarious when people trash the East and how easy it is, yet Chris Bosh is now some super team level hall of famer after joining Lebron. Bosh couldn't even win a single playoff series in the East without Lebron, lol. So the disconnect in logic is all over the place with lebron haters.
You do realise that Phil Jackson was in his second season as an NBA head coach when they won their first title? He wasn't the greatest coach ever, or anywhere near that, at that point. And that it was Tex Winters system?
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Old 05-10-2018, 05:15 PM   #471
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Default Right now, where do you rank Lebron all time?

All of these arguments can be skewed multiple ways to favor Lebron/Jordan and several of them conveniently omit context (and some are flat out redundant). See below for response

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Lebron never lost in the 1st round. Jordan did 3 times. In Jordans window of contention (his Bulls years), Jordan NEVER missed the playoffs, Lebron did twice. The three first round losses you reference: the Bucks as a rookie (I urge you to go look at Jordan's supporting cast in 84-85), the eventual champion celtics in 86, and conference champ celtics in 87 - both teams were stacked with all time greats. Of Jordan's other playoff defeats prior to first championship, he lost to the Pistons all three times. That Piston's team won the conference in 88, and the Championship in 89 and 90.

Lebron made all his finals appearances with different coaches and supporting casts.
Jordan only made the finals when Pippen was there and Jackson was coach. This is one that is largely irrefutable. Lebron's first finals appearance was with a largely unimpressive supporting cast (though players like Big Z and hughes were certainly capable). His other finals appearances all included Wade/Bosh with the Heat, and Love/Kyrie with Cleveland. He had Spoelstra all four years in Miami (backed by Riley), had Mike Brown for most of his first stint in Cleveland, and Blatt/Lue the second go around. Certainly no all timers from a coaching perspective, but the continuity or lack thereof has far more to do with Lebron's own moves as a FA and internal influence (i.e., Blatt). From a player perspective, he has has his "core" guys (typically that he had picked), for every ring he has won. Jordan's first and second supporting casts were almost completely different with the exception of Pippen. In fact, Pippen was the ONLY player from the 91-93 championship teams to be part of the second three peat. The starting lineup had completely turned over.

Lebron never played with a 50 Greatest Player of all-time (Pippen) and none of his coaches will ever make the HOF. Jordan had a top 50 player and perhaps greatest all-time coach in Phil Jackson. Jackson is a great coach no doubt, and no argument. As others have correctly pointed out, Wade is widely considered a top 50 player if re-ranked today.. In fact, of Lebron's core teammates when rated by career PER, Wade comes in at 15th all time (23.91), Love at 34 (21.93), Bosh at 58 (20.56). Kyrie's career PER of 21.8 would put him him at 37, but I believe he may not have enough games to make the list (on bball reference). Pippen can be found at 117 (18.63). I won't include guys like Ray Allen or Shaq who did not play the prime of their careers with Lebron. The rhetoric that Lebron has had to play at some disadvantage because of his supporting cast is just plain false.

Lebron made the finals on different ocassions with different casts or #2 players and different coaches. Jordan never made it past the first round without Pippen, but Pippen made the semis and conference finals without Jordan in other teams and even with the Bulls. The first argument was already made once above, so I won't respond again. See responses on Jordan's playoff career. As for Pippen post Jordan, the 94 Bulls lost Jordan yes, but also gained Steve Kerr, Toni Kukoc, and and Luc Longley, all key players on the Bull second championship run. They beat a mediocre Cavs team in three and lost in the second round. As for his conference finals appearance with Portland. He was maybe the third or fourth best player on a team with Rasheed Wallace, Damon Stoudemire, Steve Smith, Sabonis, and others. It also omits that just the year before he was part of a Houston team with Hakeem Olajuwon and (an old) Charles Barkley, that didnít make it past the first round, which suggests his teammates were far more important to his post Jordan success than he himself.

None of Lebron's coaches made the finals without Lebron. Phil Jackson won 5 rings without Jordan.True, Phil Jackson was a great coach. Though another way to look at it, was Phil Jackson never won a championship without a top 50 (or new top 50 if reranked) player.

Kyrie without Lebron in Cavs, 21,24, 33 wins. Pippen without Jordan in Bulls 55 wins. This is an argument without context. The Cav's were absolutely dismantled after Lebron left, directly due to his departure including old Shaq, Antawn Jamison, and Big Z. They stripped the team down and tanked for top picks. The 94 Bulls, that won 55 games, were competing and added Kerr, Kukoc, and Longley among other pieces, and still had key players like Horace Grant and Pippen. It's apples to Oranges.

Lebron in Cavs before Kyrie - 35, 42, 50, 50, 45, 66, 61 wins. Jordan in Bulls before Pippen - 38, 30, 40 wins. There is a fox sports article from a few years ago comparing supporting casts and actually gives Lebron the edge (i.e., stronger teammates) his first 4 years. People forget how ATROCIOUS the Bulls were before Jordan arrived from 81-84. Seriously, go back and look at the rosters. Short of Oakley for a few years and an Orlando Woolridge with some serious addiction problems, they had no one. The 30 win season you reference also conveniently omits the fact that Jordan missed all but 18 games that year, before rushing back for the playoffs where he lost to the celtics, and infamously dropped 63 points. Your Lebron win totals also omit any players he did have such as Hughes, Boozer, Shaq, Jamison, Gooden, Big Z.

Cavs after Lebron left first time - from 61 wins to 19 wins. Heat after Lebron left - from 54 wins to 37 wins. Bulls after Jordan left first time - from 57 wins to 55 wins. Again, see above for comments on Lebron's first departure. With regard to his Heat exit, it also conveniently omits the fact that Bosh and Wade both missed significant time with injury. Wade played 62 games and Bosh just 44.

Lebron's Championships prominent teammates - Wade, Allen and Bosh are HOFers locks, Kyrie may never be one (he'll be just like Webber and Penny - derailed by injuries), and Love probably not. Jordan's championship prominent teammates - Pippen is HOFer and top 50 greatest player, Rodman is HOFer and had 2 rings and 2 defensive player of the year titles even before meeting Jordan. Already addressed Lebron's teammates above, but this omits that both wade and Allen won championships without Lebron (wade largely by himself) as key players on those teams. Rodman joined the bulls for his age 34, 35, 36 seasons. He played just two years after the three peat and started only 23 more games in his career. He was a world class rebounder and defender, but a total non-factor scoring. His career PER of 14.6 is not in the all-time 250. This is not to say Rodman is not a GREAT player, but his two championships he won in his prime with stacked Pistons teams where he was largely considered the fourth or fifth best player (he only started 8 games for 89 team)

Lebron's prominent teammates success after Lebron - none made conference finals. Jordan's prominent teammates success after Jordan - Pippen had 55 wins and conference semis, and made conference finals with Portland and Houston. Horace Grant made NBA Finals with Magic. Again, addressed above. Totally omits the time players played with Lebron and/or the prominence of Jordan's supporting cast in those other teams. Horace Grant was a good player, but easily the 4th bests player on a team with Shaq, Penny Hardaway and Nick Anderson. Wade and Allen, as mentioned above both won championships as lead dogs, BEFORE Lebron.

The only argument people like to parrot about Jordan is his 6-0 finals record. But you don't count his missed playoffs or first round losses? It's better to lose in the NBA finals than in the first round. So reality is - Jordan's record is 6-15, not close to Russell's 11 of 13. If people say Russell played in an 8 team league, then we can take Kareem. His 6-5 record in the finals is ultimately better than Jordan's 6-0. At the end of the day, the only stat Jordan fanatics have in his favor is that 6-0 record which is a false argument.Are we arguing Jordan vs Lebron, or Jordan vs everyone. Basically taking a stat where Jordan is clearly superior to Lebron, then using the record of other players to downplay it. Clearly Jordan's record is second to guys like Russell (btw, the starting 5 of those celtics teams are all basically top 50 players). Nevertheless, if we are going to omit Jordan's undefeated NBA finals (and other arguments I made above) and only focus on playoff seasons that end in a championship it is 6/13 or 6/15 if you want to include his Wizards years. Lebron is what 3/15?

People have another false perception of Lebron not being clutch or a go-to guy. Well, according to stats: Go-ahead baskets with 5-seconds or less in playoff games? Jordan retired at 5 of 11. Lebron is already at 7 of 14. Career playoff buzzer beaters? Jordan is 3, Lebron is 5. Moreoever, Jordan has never hit a 3-pointer buzzer beater. So where is the argument that "well who would you want to take the last shot Lebron or MJ?" - truth is if you need a 3, MJ would be the last guy I'll take. I won't argue "clutch factor" as I have seen too many skewed numbers to say anything with confidence.
Your numbers above with "5 or less" seconds I don't dispute, but that limits "clutchness" to a very specific window. It also shows that James has had more opportunities. Jordan never played in a game 7 in the finals, that is pretty clutch.


So at the end of the day, the numbers don't like. Lebron is greater than Jordan. The numbers tell whatever story you want them to. Lebron will (and has in some cases) inevitably COMPILE more numbers in his career as he has already surpassed Jordan in games played. His Longevity is indeed impressive. But Jordan has a higher career scoring average, higher career PER, higher win shares per 48 min, higher postseason PER and scoring average. He won one more MVP in same amount of seasons, 3 more finals MVPs, oh..and yes 3 more championships.

But if the only number that floats your boat and you care about is 6-0, that you can pick Jordan all you want if it makes you happy.

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Old 05-10-2018, 05:33 PM   #472
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One guy started the #23

The other guy copied.

One did Space Jam, the other guy is going to follow

One guy made Nike, the other guy followed.

Sorry but the imitation is never as good as the original.

What's scary is that young people and early 20s believe LeBron overtook Jordan a while ago, it's hilarious to me. Scary and hilarious.
No idea on which category or skill.
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Old 05-10-2018, 06:02 PM   #473
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Rj..... you saved me a lot of time. Thanks
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Old 05-10-2018, 06:03 PM   #474
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You do realise that Phil Jackson was in his second season as an NBA head coach when they won their first title? He wasn't the greatest coach ever, or anywhere near that, at that point. And that it was Tex Winters system?
This simple fact doesnít support their argument so no they dont
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Old 05-10-2018, 06:08 PM   #475
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I would also add that from 94-95 to 95-96 the Bulls went from 47-35 to 72-10 so I guess Jordan had some sort of positive impact. The system certainly does help the way it does for the Patriots or how it kept the Spurs humming along this year but it doesn’t get you close to the title.
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