Right now, where do you rank Lebron all time?

[starfox]

Originally Posted by mj2kb

He was #3 on my list behind MJ and Kareem, he just moved to #2 by taking buch of scrubs to the Finals.

Can we all at least agree if he somehow can win a ring this year, he will be cemented #2 all time?

No, but I'll take him from 9 to 5. That's very fair.

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[Longshot18]

This is one of those debates that there is literally nothing that is going to change minds.

LeBron could win 8 titles from age 40-50 and the Jordanites would still claim Michael is #1. Meanwhile Jordan can't add to his resume so the LeBronites will consider everything else he does from here on out as proof he's better.

And both LeBronites and Jordanites typically have no clue hoops existed before the mid 1980s and dismiss the likes of Chamberlain/Jabbar immediately.

I never saw Wilt, but I have seen the rest. And if you ask me, I honestly could not name a GOAT. There would be GOATS. There would not be a pedestal, there would be a Mt. Rushmore.

An objective person could make a case for/against Chamberlain, Jabbar, Magic, Bird, LeBron, MJ, and maybe a few others. But these arguments and posts always come down to strongly worded personal opinions and/or stats that tell only the side of the story one side wants in efforts to prove their point.

[Miz]

Lebron gets originality points for sure. There has never been a player like him. 8 straight finals is nothing one can ignore. I actually am not sure who is the GOAT but I started watching basketball in 1988 when I was five and I will say this....the air of invincibility held by Jordan during his heyday has yet to be duplicated. He was so much better then everyone else and his presence was enough to shot down other players heads. Also MJ was all nba 1st team on offense and defense in the same year 9 F**KING TIMES! That is his most impressive stat in my opinion. So he was the best SG on both sides of the ball for almost a decade. Wow.

[Miz]

Originally Posted by Longshot18

This is one of those debates that there is literally nothing that is going to change minds.

LeBron could win 8 titles from age 40-50 and the Jordanites would still claim Michael is #1. Meanwhile Jordan can't add to his resume so the LeBronites will consider everything else he does from here on out as proof he's better.



And both LeBronites and Jordanites typically have no clue hoops existed before the mid 1980s and dismiss the likes of Chamberlain/Jabbar immediately.

I never saw Wilt, but I have seen the rest. And if you ask me, I honestly could not name a GOAT. There would be GOATS. There would not be a pedestal, there would be a Mt. Rushmore.

An objective person could make a case for/against Chamberlain, Jabbar, Magic, Bird, LeBron, MJ, and maybe a few others. But these arguments and posts always come down to strongly worded personal opinions and/or stats that tell only the side of the story one side wants in efforts to prove their point.

I love how you mentioned BIRD..those MVPS from 84-86 was an amazing feat and I feel like if he hadn't hurt his back....he would have been even better

[rj.cataldo]

It's almost asinine to argue that Lebron did something tonight that he shouldn't have. Cleveland was favored in the series, and picked by most pundits to win. Superstars drive the NBA and always have. The Celtics didn't have a player score over 30 in this series. Jaylen Brown and Tatum each led the team in scoring 2-3 times, Horford once maybe, and Rozier once?

The point is, the Celtics, while well coached, and deep, don't have that go to guy yet (or that guy is on the sidelines). They have good young players that can explode, or disappear, on any given night. That matters tremendously in the NBA. The Pistons are the only team that I could remember that took a superstar-less team all the way, and they were STACKED with great veteran players at every position (though no one player was all-time great caliber)

Lebron's achievement of 8 straight NBA finals is very impressive. Regardless of the level of talent in the East, he has proven he is a transcendent talent and has remained dominant and healthy enough to consistently be at the top of the Eastern Conference (and NBA). But unless you are trying to sell magazines, or work for ESPN, stop pushing the narrative that beating the Celtics was an unexpected miracle.

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

Lebron in the 4th quarter or OT of the nba finals, under 1 minute left in the game with a chance to tie or take the lead. I wasn't able to do my search with just the nba finals, so i searched games in June. The first result was a game against the celtics, so i removed it.

2 LeBron James 2017-06-07 CLE GSW L 4th 0:12.0 Miss LeBron James misses 3-pt shot from 23 ft (block by Andre Iguodala) (CLE 113, GSW 116)
3 LeBron James 2013-06-18 MIA SAS W 4th 0:07.9 Miss LeBron James misses 3-pt shot from 26 ft (MIA 92, SAS 95)
4 LeBron James 2015-06-04 CLE @ GSW L 4th 0:04.0 Miss LeBron James misses 2-pt shot from 21 ft (CLE 98, GSW 98)
5 LeBron James 2015-06-07 CLE @ GSW W 4th 0:02.0 Miss LeBron James misses 2-pt shot from 4 ft (CLE 87, GSW 87)
6 LeBron James 2007-06-12 CLE SAS L 4th 0:01.9 Miss LeBron James misses 3-pt shot from 26 ft (CLE 72, SAS 75)
7 LeBron James 2015-06-07 CLE @ GSW W OT 0:23.0 Miss LeBron James misses 2-pt shot from 5 ft (block by Draymond Green) (CLE 92, GSW 93)

So, no thoughts on Lebron's performance in the final minutes of finals game?

[jpstudioedge]

Originally Posted by Frog

Oh do tell what the Cavs outside of LeBron shot from 3. I'd love to hear. I actually already know.

Please don't try and argue with me about the Cavs sans LeBron outplayed Boston hahaha that's just silly. Not even an opinions, just false.

They made 9 3 pointers and shot 45% from the field as a team. While their 3 point shooting sucked it was still +6 points. Which was better than Boston.

And I’m trying to argue that the Cavs as a team played better. Both teams were trash tho.

Kind of strange saying please don’t argue.

[Noah]

Originally Posted by pgisback

Very true. 35/15/9 on 50% shooting is poor by his standards. Which is why he's GOAT.

2 years ago you couldn’t name a starter on that Celtics team, that’s hardly comparable to Jordan hanging 55/8/7 on 57% percent shooting against Barkley, thunder dan, and Kevin Johnson or 54/6/2 on 60% shooting against Ewing, Oakley, doc, starks

Lebron has ran into zero likely hall of famers on this run unless Tatum becomes what most people believe he will be. Not lebrons fault but it just isn’t amazing to some people given the teams he is playing against

[Longshot18]

My son and I were talking before the series even started that the story lines were already written.

Cle beats Boston and it's not because LeBron is great, it's because Boston had 2 injured players. And if they lose, well, that's proof LeBron is not all that great because he can't beat an injured Boston team. Gun to my head on who is the GOAT, as I mentioned above, I would vote for GOATS. So I'm not defending any opinion that LeBron is the best ever on his own. Im just saying there is literally nothing he could do to change some minds.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by Noah

2 years ago you couldn’t name a starter on that Celtics team, that’s hardly comparable to Jordan hanging 55/8/7 on 57% percent shooting against Barkley, thunder dan, and Kevin Johnson or 54/6/2 on 60% shooting against Ewing, Oakley, doc, starks

Lebron has ran into zero likely hall of famers on this run unless Tatum becomes what most people believe he will be. Not lebrons fault but it just isn’t amazing to some people given the teams he is playing against

The competition argument gets old. Lebron 2 years ago against the 73 win Warriors team was the first player in Finals history to lead both teams in the Finals in all 5 major statistical categories. Last year against the Warriors he was the first player in NBA history to average a triple double in the Finals. He's the best player on the court regardless of who he plays. MJ is #2. That's not like an insult to him. He was incredible also.

[jpstudioedge]

Originally Posted by Longshot18

My son and I were talking before the series even started that the story lines were already written.

Cle beats Boston and it's not because LeBron is great, it's because Boston had 2 injured players. And if they lose, well, that's proof LeBron is not all that great because he can't beat an injured Boston team. Gun to my head on who is the GOAT, as I mentioned above, I would vote for GOATS. So I'm not defending any opinion that LeBron is the best ever on his own. Im just saying there is literally nothing he could do to change some minds.

Winning championships changes minds. However lebron losing 5 times already screwed him over in the goat debate, plus jumping from super team to super team. This is why he can’t be compared, but the people who desperately want their generation to be the best make up other story lines. It’s good for espn to market this because it creates more dollars.. Just a few years ago mark Jackson said “Kobe will go down as the best player in basketball history”

People who ignore this HUGE difference are the ones who come up with longevity and other story lines. It won’t stand the test of time. The story line will then shift to wwarriors greatest dynasty ever or Durant take over lebron as nbas best player? Just wait...

[Noah]

Originally Posted by pgisback

The competition argument gets old. Lebron 2 years ago against the 73 win Warriors team was the first player in Finals history to lead both teams in the Finals in all 5 major statistical categories. Last year against the Warriors he was the first player in NBA history to average a triple double in the Finals. He's the best player on the court regardless of who he plays. MJ is #2. That's not like an insult to him. He was incredible also.

Lebron is number 1 against this watered down east, against the competition in the west that is a different story. It’s not an insult to him he is awesome against a conference that has sucked since MJ retired. He did beat a tired 73-9 warriors team that had a key player suspended, and with kyrie bailing him out. He won rings in Miami with Ray Allen bailing him out. It’s not his fault

[jpstudioedge]

Originally Posted by pgisback

The competition argument gets old. Lebron 2 years ago against the 73 win Warriors team was the first player in Finals history to lead both teams in the Finals in all 5 major statistical categories. Last year against the Warriors he was the first player in NBA history to average a triple double in the Finals. He's the best player on the court regardless of who he plays. MJ is #2. That's not like an insult to him. He was incredible also.

The argument gets old because it’s true? If u can’t admit the east is weak then there is no point in speaking. The earth is flat too apparently since logic can no longer be used.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by Noah

Lebron is number 1 against this watered down east, against the competition in the west that is a different story. It’s not an insult to him he is awesome against a conference that has sucked since MJ retired. He did beat a tired 73-9 warriors team that had a key player suspended, and with kyrie bailing him out. He won rings in Miami with Ray Allen bailing him out. It’s not his fault

Haha, in the last 8 years he's 64% against the West and that key player was suspended 1 game, lol. He lead both teams in all 5 major statistical categories. Probably the greatest individual accomplishment I have seen in the Finals. I don't know what could possibly top that. And that's against a big bad scary West team and not the D League East. So what's your excuse for that?

[Longshot18]

Originally Posted by jpstudioedge

Winning championships changes minds. However lebron losing 5 times already screwed him over in the goat debate, plus jumping from super team to super team. This is why he can’t be compared, but the people who desperately want their generation to be the best make up other story lines. It’s good for espn to market this because it creates more dollars.. Just a few years ago mark Jackson said “Kobe will go down as the best player in basketball history”

People who ignore this HUGE difference are the ones who come up with longevity and other story lines. It won’t stand the test of time. The story line will then shift to wwarriors greatest dynasty ever or Durant take over lebron as nbas best player? Just wait...

Winning titles changes minds? Not to Jordanites. Point out that Russell won almost 2x as many, and there will be an "excuse". Point out that that Jabbar scored more points, had more rebounds, went to more finals and won the same #, and the argument shifts focus.

Thing with guys in either corner, as soon as you point out flaws in their argument, they change the narrative to fit the story they want. Ie- LeBron gets dinged for going from "Super Team to Super Team", but they ignore that Jordan played with HOFers Pippen/Rodman and one of if not the best ever coach. Jordan did not move teams, but he also did not have to. His team was already stacked.

[Stat Monsters]

It's hard to proclaim a GOAT because it's so subjective, mixing in the competition, the teammates, the coaching, the state of the game itself for every generation and era.

I'd say it's easier to say the Greatest of His Era or The Greatest Player of his Decade.

So, for LeBron, his reign may include peers like Kobe, Duncan and Curry who are the top players vying for the title. I think LeBron is a better player than Kobe. I think LeBron is a different player than Duncan, and Duncan is the sport's gentleman and unsung hero, and was dominant, but the x-factor of the lack of game changing excitement makes LeBron better. The jury's still out on Curry vs LeBron, but Curry wins with a solid support team of all-stars, so right now, I give it to LeBron.

[Noah]

Originally Posted by pgisback

Haha, in the last 8 years he's 64% against the West and that key player was suspended 1 game, lol. He lead both teams in all 5 major statistical categories. Probably the greatest individual accomplishment I have seen in the Finals. I don't know what could possibly top that. And that's against a big bad scary West team and not the D League East. So what's your excuse for that?

My excuse without looking at stats would be that golden state is kind of known as a run and gun team that doesn’t give it all on defense. I also would guess they had iguodala, a sixth man guard him? I would also say guarding has become near impossible. The game has changed. How is that for a quick response

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by Longshot18

Winning titles changes minds? Not to Jordanites. Point out that Russell won almost 2x as many, and there will be an "excuse". Point out that that Jabbar scored more points, had more rebounds, went to more finals and won the same #, and the argument shifts focus.

Thing with guys in either corner, as soon as you point out flaws in their argument, they change the narrative to fit the story they want. Ie- LeBron gets dinged for going from "Super Team to Super Team", but they ignore that Jordan played with HOFers Pippen/Rodman and one of if not the best ever coach. Jordan did not move teams, but he also did not have to. His team was already stacked.

Jordan stuck with pippen and helped turn him into a great player

[jpstudioedge]

Originally Posted by pgisback

Haha, in the last 8 years he's 64% against the West and that key player was suspended 1 game, lol. He lead both teams in all 5 major statistical categories. Probably the greatest individual accomplishment I have seen in the Finals. I don't know what could possibly top that. And that's against a big bad scary West team and not the D League East. So what's your excuse for that?

Maybe winning a championship could top that? Idk.

And ur correct lebron is 3-5 in nba finals which is right about at his winning percentage in the West.

This is great

3-6 (even after jumping to superteams)

6-0 ...what is the debate here honestly lol.

[jpstudioedge]

ALSO do you know how many teams there were in the nba in Bill Russell’s day?

About 10. Yes 10. With fewer nba games and only about 10 games to a title. But i Somehow doubt you will understand this since you can’t comprehend the eastern conference

[JasonM32]

MJ was the best offensive player in the league and the best defensive in the league....at the same time. Scoring title, DPOY. 6 rings. 5 MVPS.

Russell won 11 rings

Wilt averaged 50 points a game and 20 rebounds.

Magic was in the Finals in 9 out of his 12 full seasons and he was forced to retire early at age 31 because of illness. Certainly would have done more with an extra 5 or so years.

Kareem has 6 MVPS and 6 Rings, NBA's all time leading scorer. 11 plus rebounds and almost 3 blocks a game.

I suppose all this stuff that Lebron never did becomes irrelevant because Lebron averages 27/7/7 for his career and gets to the Finals 8 times in a row. We are slaves to the moment.

[CoolG]

Originally Posted by pgisback

The competition argument gets old. Lebron 2 years ago against the 73 win Warriors team was the first player in Finals history to lead both teams in the Finals in all 5 major statistical categories. Last year against the Warriors he was the first player in NBA history to average a triple double in the Finals. He's the best player on the court regardless of who he plays. MJ is #2. That's not like an insult to him. He was incredible also.

LBJ is absolutely amazing I do agree and has the pedigree to be in the discussion of goat but for me it’s a slight advantage to MJ seeing both play in their prime.

[rj.cataldo]

Originally Posted by Longshot18

My son and I were talking before the series even started that the story lines were already written.

Cle beats Boston and it's not because LeBron is great, it's because Boston had 2 injured players. And if they lose, well, that's proof LeBron is not all that great because he can't beat an injured Boston team. Gun to my head on who is the GOAT, as I mentioned above, I would vote for GOATS. So I'm not defending any opinion that LeBron is the best ever on his own. Im just saying there is literally nothing he could do to change some minds.

I have to ask. Are these "storylines" here on Blowout, or in the real media. Because I have read, listened to, and watched a fair amount of sports coverage and national media the past few weeks, and I cannot recall anyone running with that take. The storylines were: A) Lebron wins carrying a terrible team on his shoulders, or B) Lebron goes down because he has no support.

The ESPN headline before the game was about how this would be among Lebron's best achievements. Van Gundy said this was THE BIGGEST achievement Lebron has had (which I could not disagree with more) during the broadcast. Debate on who is the greatest or Lebron's standing aside, I haven't seen any reputable major media outlets running with the storyline you mentioned above. With the exclusion of perhaps Charles Barkley, it has been almost universal praise for Lebron (and rightfully so).

[starfox]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

Jordan stuck with pippen and helped turn him into a great player

Nah. Pippen held his own, and freed up Jordan to do what he did best: score. Pippen was the perfect compliment to Jordan.

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[pgisback]

Originally Posted by Noah

My excuse without looking at stats would be that golden state is kind of known as a run and gun team that doesn’t give it all on defense. I also would guess they had iguodala, a sixth man guard him? I would also say guarding has become near impossible. The game has changed. How is that for a quick response

So winning a finals against a 73 win team and leading both teams in points, assists, rebounds, steals, and blocks is because the game changed and not because he's incredible? It's crazy to hate a man that much that you can't even give him credit it when it's so clearly due.