Mike Trout = 30/30

[CALVINXLIONSX81]

Originally Posted by Ryan T.

This is covered all over this forum and many many other websites. I'm not getting into it with you here when you clearly have a strong bias.

So let me get this right, you have no argument of how Trout is having this Superior offensive year

[Ryan T.]

Here's a good article for your perusal. It's from a week or two ago, but it's points are still very relevant.

Mike Trout, Miguel Cabrera, and Measuring Value | FanGraphs Baseball

[Ryan T.]

Originally Posted by CALVINXLIONSX81

So let me get this right, you have no argument of how Trout is having this Superior offensive year

See above. I, along with most of the educated baseball consuming public, have very good arguments.

[CALVINXLIONSX81]

Originally Posted by Ryan T.

Here's a good article for your perusal. It's from a week or two ago, but it's points are still very relevant.

Mike Trout, Miguel Cabrera, and Measuring Value | FanGraphs Baseball

So you have an article that says he should be MVP? What a source

[Ryan T.]

Originally Posted by CALVINXLIONSX81

So you have an article that says he should be MVP? What a source

Did you even bother to read it and the many many good and statistically valid points it makes?

[Army19K]

Originally Posted by Ryan T.

See above. I, along with most of the educated baseball consuming public, have very good arguments.

Honestly, he wins the MVP, great. But really all that matters is that there is a 99% chance the Tigers are going to the playoffs, and the Angels are not

[Ryan T.]

Originally Posted by Army19K

Honestly, he wins the MVP, great. But really all that matters is that there is a 99% chance the Tigers are going to the playoffs, and the Angels are not

And that's awesome. Tigers fans should be thrilled about that and Cabrera's awesome year. I just can't stand the blatant bias and homerism that some of these guys display. I realize it's not everyone.

[Tugarpj]

If Cabby doesnt get the mvp or triple crown the sun will still come out. If he loses the mvp to Trout I have no prblem with that. We're playoff bound and that's all that matters.

[CubsFanInTX]

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

If he just would have played the entire year, think of a 40-40 rookie? Wow.

I don't think he would be a 40/40 rookie, he didn't miss that much time. He would be pushing for it though if he did come in from the start and didn't tail off here at the end.

Hoping for the 30/50 though Go Trout!

[freeman2jackson]

Comparing fielding percentage on a 3B and CF is like comparing apples and oranges. They aren't even close to the same. If stolen bases and fielding percentage should win MVPs then Jose Reyes should have won like 4 already

[JohnnysBench]

There is a good chance IMO that Cabrera takes the M.V.P this year, with or without the Triple Crown. However by the numbers and the feats of the Fish this year I hope I'm wrong!

[Jmilly]

1st. Fielding percentage is NO way to measure defense. try UZR or defensive runs saved.

2nd. I suggest some of you guys read Keith Law's argument for Trout. He goes a little overboard, but the facts are there.

3rd. Trout could very well become the 3rd player EVER to go 30-50. That's a lot more rare than the triple crown.

4th. MVP should not be affected by how well their respective team is playing. That widely varies on their teammates, which would then make it a team award. Also, the Angels have a better record than Detroit.

5th. This means no disrespect to Cabrera whatsoever. He is having an amazing season, and would win the MVP in most years, but Trout is on a whole other planet. I have yet to hear a truly reasonable argument in Cabrera's favor. Also, don't discredit WAR, if you don't know what it is. Look it up and truly read into it before you decide its useless. It is not a "made up" stat. If you're thinking that way then every non counting stat is "made up."

[8lakers24]

Originally Posted by Jmilly

1st. Fielding percentage is NO way to measure defense. try UZR or defensive runs saved.

2nd. I suggest some of you guys read Keith Law's argument for Trout. He goes a little overboard, but the facts are there.

3rd. Trout could very well become the 3rd player EVER to go 30-50. That's a lot more rare than the triple crown.

4th. MVP should not be affected by how well their respective team is playing. That widely varies on their teammates, which would then make it a team award. Also, the Angels have a better record than Detroit.

5th. This means no disrespect to Cabrera whatsoever. He is having an amazing season, and would win the MVP in most years, but Trout is on a whole other planet. I have yet to hear a truly reasonable argument in Cabrera's favor. Also, don't discredit WAR, if you don't know what it is. Look it up and truly read into it before you decide its useless. It is not a "made up" stat. If you're thinking that way then every non counting stat is "made up."

you mean the same keith law who just a month ago didnt even have cabrera or josh hamilton in his top five for mvp (not to mention he had two detroit tigers players in the top 5 for mvp..austin jackson and justin verlander) yeah hes really smart and not biased what so ever....also you said mvp shouldnt depend on wether or not a team makes the playoffs, so should josh hamilton give his 2010 mvp to miguel cabrera since the only reason he beat him out was because the tigers sucked and the rangers made the playoffs?

[Jmilly]

Originally Posted by 8lakers24

you mean the same keith law who just a month ago didnt even have cabrera or josh hamilton in his top five for mvp (not to mention he had two detroit tigers players in the top 5 for mvp..austin jackson and justin verlander) yeah hes really smart....also you said mvp shouldnt depend on wether or not a team makes the playoffs, so should josh hamilton give his 2010 mvp to miguel cabrera since the only reason he beat him out was because the tigers sucked and the rangers made the playoffs?

1. Law had valid arguments for not having him in. No I do not agree that Austin Jackson was more valuable than Cabrera, but Verlander very well may be. Also, Law has recently admitted he would put Cabrera in his top 3.

2. Josh Hamilton had a superior season that year. Nothing to do with the postseason. Hamilton's WAR was 2.3 Wins higher (even if you dislike WAR, that is a significant difference) that season despite playing in 17 less games. He also had a higher OPS, provided slightly more value on the basepaths, and was solid in center field. Although, Cabrera had a very good case that year, and you could've had a solid argument for anyone of Cabrera, Hamilton, and Cano.

[8lakers24]

Originally Posted by Jmilly

1. Law had valid arguments for not having him in. No I do not agree that Austin Jackson was more valuable than Cabrera, but Verlander very well may be. Also, Law has recently admitted he would put Cabrera in his top 3.

2. Josh Hamilton had a superior season that year. Nothing to do with the postseason. Hamilton's WAR was 2.3 Wins higher (even if you dislike WAR, that is a significant difference) that season despite playing in 17 less games. He also had a higher OPS, provided slightly more value on the basepaths, and was solid in center field. Although, Cabrera had a very good case that year, and you could've had a solid argument for anyone of Cabrera, Hamilton, and Cano.

what was his valid argument for not having cabrera in than, explain to me? and dont link me to one of his stupid articles, i want to actually hear someone explain to me how cabrera would not be in the top 5 because it would be quite funny to read, and once again the people saying verlander would be ahead of him obviously did not watch him this year...also please explain to me how hamiltons numbers were superior to cabreras in 2010

hamilton 95 runs
cabrera 111 runs

hamilton 40 doubles
cabrera 45 doubles

hamilton 32 hrs
cabrera 38 hrs

hamilton 100 rbis
cabrera 126 rbis

hamilton 43 walks
cabrera 89 walks

hamilton 359 avg
cabrera 328 avg

hamilton 1.044 ops
cabrera 1.042 ops

and dont tell me its because of hamiltons outstanding defense lol, like i said making the playoffs matter to the voters

[Jmilly]

Originally Posted by 8lakers24

what was his valid argument for not having cabrera in than, explain to me? and dont link me to one of his stupid articles, i want to actually hear someone explain to me how cabrera would not be in the top 5 because it would be quite funny to read, and once again the people saying verlander would be ahead of him obviously did not watch him this year...also please explain to me how hamiltons numbers were superior to cabreras in 2010

hamilton 95 runs
cabrera 111 runs

hamilton 40 doubles
cabrera 45 doubles

hamilton 32 hrs
cabrera 38 hrs

hamilton 100 rbis
cabrera 126 rbis

hamilton 43 walks
cabrera 89 walks

hamilton 359 avg
cabrera 328 avg

hamilton 1.044 ops
cabrera 1.042 ops

and dont tell me its because of hamiltons outstanding defense lol, like i said making the playoffs matter to the voters

Cabrera had a rather mediocre (by his standards) first half, likely costing him some Mid season votes. Hes obviously made up that ground over the last month though. And his arguments are quite valid if you look at them with an unbiased open mind.

Hamilton wins in OPS, AVG, steals, and plays a much more difficult position. Cabrera wins in home runs, doubles, and walks. RBI's are irrelevant, and runs are generally a factor of who's hitting behind you (yes, that goes against Trout as well). Were not trying to say who will win here. If i had a bet, it would be Cabrera, but we are arguing who deserves it, and Trout is the best option.

Also, defense is nothing to be overlooked. The Tigers were horrible in the 1st half largely because of a horrendous defense.

[JohnAndrew]

Originally Posted by 8lakers24

what was his valid argument for not having cabrera in than, explain to me? and dont link me to one of his stupid articles, i want to actually hear someone explain to me how cabrera would not be in the top 5 because it would be quite funny to read, and once again the people saying verlander would be ahead of him obviously did not watch him this year...also please explain to me how hamiltons numbers were superior to cabreras in 2010

hamilton 95 runs
cabrera 111 runs

hamilton 40 doubles
cabrera 45 doubles

hamilton 32 hrs
cabrera 38 hrs

hamilton 100 rbis
cabrera 126 rbis

hamilton 43 walks
cabrera 89 walks

hamilton 359 avg
cabrera 328 avg

hamilton 1.044 ops
cabrera 1.042 ops

and dont tell me its because of hamiltons outstanding defense lol, like i said making the playoffs matter to the voters

WAR, baby! It's why Hamilton won in 2010 and why Trout will win this year.

[8lakers24]

Originally Posted by Jmilly

Cabrera had a rather mediocre (by his standards) first half, likely costing him some Mid season votes. Hes obviously made up that ground over the last month though. And his arguments are quite valid if you look at them with an unbiased open mind.

Hamilton wins in OPS, AVG, steals, and plays a much more difficult position. Cabrera wins in home runs, doubles, and walks. RBI's are irrelevant, and runs are generally a factor of who's hitting behind you (yes, that goes against Trout as well). Were not trying to say who will win here. If i had a bet, it would be Cabrera, but we are arguing who deserves it, and Trout is the best option.

Also, defense is nothing to be overlooked. The Tigers were horrible in the 1st half largely because of a horrendous defense.

you still havent told me why he wouldnt be on his top five just a month ago? his numbers were just as good at that time when law made that ridiculous list...and yes hamilton totally killed cabrera in the steal category that year with 8 lol and his ops was only .02 ahead of cabrera....now talking about the tigers defense, i have watched all their games this year, their defense is not good but thats because of prince fielder and jhonny perallta not cabrera (also the first half raburn was playing second and hes god awful to), but of course people who dont watch the tigers play will continue to kill his defensive play and that includes keith law

[Jmilly]

Originally Posted by 8lakers24

you still havent told me why he wouldnt be on his top five just a month ago? his numbers were just as good at that time when law made that ridiculous list...and yes hamilton totally killed cabrera in the steal category that year with 8 lol and his ops was only .02 ahead of cabrera....now talking about the tigers defense, i have watched all their games this year, their defense is not good but thats because of prince fielder and jhonny perallta not cabrera (also the first half raburn was playing second and hes god awful to), but of course people who dont watch the tigers play will continue to kill his defensive play and that includes keith law

you really just aren't getting the point. I don't know why Law left him off, but Im sure he had a good reason. Go back and read the article, Im sure he said why. Also, his numbers were not "just as good." Cabrera's last month has been amazing and has elevated his season greatly.

What you said about defense just proves my point. They were bad because they had those players making mistakes in the field. What people dont get, is nobody is bashing anyone, were just saying how Trout is better. Doesn't mean Cabrera sucks.

Lastly, Cabrera's defense this year has been much better than expected, but it is still slightly below league average. Fielding percentage is outdated. All advanced defensive metrics show that Cabrera has been worth negative value to the Tigers with his defense. Yes, Cabrera is a good fielder with a very good arm, but what kills him is that he doesn't have good range for a third baseman.

[JohnAndrew]

People, the last time we saw a WAR as high as Trout's was Bonds in 2004. Barry had a 1.422 OPS that year.

[freeman2jackson]

Shocker that a Angels collector/fan would think Trout deserves to win MVP. I'm a Tiger fan but also a realist and hands down this vote should never be close when Cabrera wins it.

[8lakers24]

Originally Posted by Jmilly

you really just aren't getting the point. I don't know why Law left him off, but Im sure he had a good reason. Go back and read the article, Im sure he said why. Also, his numbers were not "just as good." Cabrera's last month has been amazing and has elevated his season greatly.

What you said about defense just proves my point. They were bad because they had those players making mistakes in the field. What people dont get, is nobody is bashing anyone, were just saying how Trout is better. Doesn't mean Cabrera sucks.

Lastly, Cabrera's defense this year has been much better than expected, but it is still slightly below league average. Fielding percentage is outdated. All advanced defensive metrics show that Cabrera has been worth negative value to the Tigers with his defense. Yes, Cabrera is a good fielder with a very good arm, but what kills him is that he doesn't have good range for a third baseman.

thats just it he didnt have a good reason for leaving him off, so maybe you could explain it to me? or how trout has a higher offensive war than cabrera?

[Jmilly]

Originally Posted by freeman2jackson

Shocker that a Angels collector/fan would think Trout deserves to win MVP. I'm a Tiger fan but also a realist and hands down this vote should never be close when Cabrera wins it.

Just because im a fan doesn't mean I'm biased. I fully support Verlander or Price for Cy Young over Weaver, and I don't believe Vlad or Colon should have won their MVP and Cy Young's respectively.

[Ryan T.]

Originally Posted by freeman2jackson

Shocker that a Angels collector/fan would think Trout deserves to win MVP. I'm a Tiger fan but also a realist and hands down this vote should never be close when Cabrera wins it.

Wonder what the excuse will be when Trout (rightfully) wins it?

And for the record I don't have a horse in this race. I don't collect either player and I'm a Mets fan. I'm just a baseball fan with a good knowledge of advanced metrics and a decent idea of how to measure value.

Trout had the better year.

[JohnAndrew]

Originally Posted by freeman2jackson

Shocker that a Angels collector/fan would think Trout deserves to win MVP. I'm a Tiger fan but also a realist and hands down this vote should never be close when Cabrera wins it.

If Cabrera wins, it won't and SHOULDN'T be close. If the voters are remotely sane, Trout will win comfortably.