1998 Topps Finest Centurion Stamping Differences

[tidel144]

Had some recent conversations with fellow collectors about the '98 Topps Finest Centurion insert. It’s known that unnumbered Centurion Refractors exist and that there are two serial number stamping versions out there: 0##/75 or ##/75 (see picture below)

I did research to potentially determine which serial numbering was factory and which was counterfeit stamping on unnumbered refractors that were backdoored. Operating under the assumption that one stamping font was used by Topps for this entire set (base & Refractor). Also, could only use pictures readily available to me - used the Griffey as a referent.

TL;DR Conclusion: I believe the 0##/75 stamping was made by Topps and the ##/75 stamping is a counterfeit stamp

Picture A is the stamping on a ’98 Bowman’s Best Fusion Atomic Refractor, for reference
B is the base Centurion (non-Refractor)
C-F are Refractors with the 0##/75 stamping
G-L are Refractors with the ##/75 stamping
Unsure why Finest decided to go with a completely different font for the “/75” part of the stamp


Examining the serial number font is the easiest way to spot counterfeit stamps – it’s a method commonly used by basketball collectors (thanks @rogermaris) that have to commonly deal with this problem and the same I used to examine some ’98 BC Golden Anniversary Refractors /5 counterfeits.

Picture A is used to identify a stamping font that is theoretically trustworthy and legitimate. Finest and Bowman’s Best of course are both made by Topps and there is no evidence that the Fusion Atomics have been backdoored or counterfeit stamped. Both Centurions and Fusion Atomics were from 1998.

Compare A to B. You can see that Topps used the same stamping font for the Centurions and Fusion Atomics as the ‘0’, ‘7’, ‘2’, and ‘5’ have the same stylization characteristics. Now compare A to B and the “071” in C – again, same stamping font. Even the ‘1’ in B and C match.


Compare C through F to each other. The ‘0’ in all pictures are identical and the ‘6’ in D and F are identical font. Most importantly, the ‘0’, ‘1’, ‘2’, and ‘7’ from this group of pictures match the font seen in A and B. In other words, the Refractor stamping font seen in pictures C-F is the same font used in the Base Centurions and the 3rd party example (Fusion Atomic). To me, this is biggest indicator suggesting the 0##/75 stamping is authentic.


Using this indicator, now look at G-L. Notice the difference in stamping font from these compared to the stamping font in C-F

Compare F to G. The ‘6s’ are different – I believe F to be legitimate and G to be a counterfeit stamp due to above. The top of the ‘6’ in G comes down closer to the loop. H and I both have a similar stamping font to G, showing consistency in using this different/counterfeit font. Further, the ‘4s’ are different also – the horizontal “tail” of the ‘4’ in G extends past vertical line further than in ‘F’. Also, the triangle inside the ‘4’ in G has a wider base/less acute hypotenuse than the ‘4’ in F. You can see this same wide-based triangle in K and L.


Compare B and C (both legitimate) to J. The ‘1s’ are different. In J, the peak of the ‘1’ has a gentle curve, compared to the sharp diagonal peak in B and C.


Compare E (legitimate) to K. The ‘9s’ are different. In K, the loop of the ‘9’ is more circular, compared to the more oval-shaped loop in E. Further, the tail of the ‘9’ in K comes closer to touching the loop than the tail in E.


Compare D (legitimate) to L. The ‘8s’ are different. In L, the upper loop of the ‘8’ is smaller and the lower loop is larger, compared to the ‘8’ in L, which has both loops at roughly the same size.


All of these small but noticeable differences in stamping font are not by accident. Alignment or spacing may differ from card to card, but the font does not. The only argument against all of this that would suggest otherwise is if Topps for some reason changed their stamping font mid-production, which would be unlikely. Judge for yourselves!


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[rogermaris]

Great analysis and images! Just chiming in to corroborate. I've noticed the same thing with the zeros and think you're spot on!

[808MadMacs]

Hopefully more player collectors will look into their own collections to see what they can discover/offer to this topic.

Outstanding research that's much appreciated.

[3124508 on COMC]

Devil's advocate:

Why would a counterfeiter leave off the extra 0? There's really no logical reason.

Good work either way.

[808MadMacs]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

Devil's advocate:

Why would a counterfeiter leave off the extra 0? There's really no logical reason.

Incompetence is my thought.

Just like the fake 1998 Fleer Showcase Legacies.

Simple stupidity.

BTW, I personally appreciate an opposing thought process - something as a culture that's pretty much dead now.

[edit] Don't get me started on 1997 Score's White Border Artist Proofs. <laugh>

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

Devil's advocate:

Why would a counterfeiter leave off the extra 0? There's really no logical reason.

Good work either way.

I'd attribute it to ignorance.

[sonic311]

Though I'd bump this thread to make folks aware that the 3 highest prized Centurion Refractors currently up on eBay appear to be fake.

Both versions of Griffey 52/75 and 052/75 are currently up for sale.

[tidel144]

Originally Posted by sonic311

Though I'd bump this thread to make folks aware that the 3 highest prized Centurion Refractors currently up on eBay appear to be fake.

Both versions of Griffey 52/75 and 052/75 are currently up for sale.

Thanks for the bump @Sonic311. While I do not see the 052/75 anymore, the current 52/75 in the GMA slab is a prime example of a Centurion Refractor with a counterfeit stamp.

[sonic311]

Originally Posted by tidel144

Thanks for the bump @Sonic311. While I do not see the 052/75 anymore, the current 52/75 in the GMA slab is a prime example of a Centurion Refractor with a counterfeit stamp.

On the contrary @tidel144 thank you for doing the research on these and creating this thread. I recently picked up the Piazza but I made sure to double check this info because I had forgotten which were the fake stamps.

[tidel144]

Originally Posted by sonic311

On the contrary @tidel144 thank you for doing the research on these and creating this thread. I recently picked up the Piazza but I made sure to double check this info because I had forgotten which were the fake stamps.

No problem at all - glad to hear!


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[chilly55]

While this is not Topps related, back in 2004, I had several damaged inserts from my 2004 Donruss boxes that I opened. Among them were about a dozen serial numbered cards.

Donruss was great and told me to return the cards and they would replace them. I was expecting totally different cards, but to my amazement, they sent me the exact same serial numbered inserts back. The replacement inserts were of the same cards I sent them and were the same serial numbers. The only difference were the fonts of the serial numbers. They were noticeably larger.

I have only 1 of the inserts left, a Gary Sheffield Elite insert, but scanned the back of the insert for you to see.



I don't own another Elite insert to show comparison, so here is a link to the regular font of the same card.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/2004-Donrus...ss!22025!US!-1

My replacement cards with different fonts came directly from Donruss. Did Topps ever do anything like this? Anyone else get replacement cards from Donruss like I did?

Bill

[tidel144]

Originally Posted by chilly55

While this is not Topps related, back in 2004, I had several damaged inserts from my 2004 Donruss boxes that I opened. Among them were about a dozen serial numbered cards.

Donruss was great and told me to return the cards and they would replace them. I was expecting totally different cards, but to my amazement, they sent me the exact same serial numbered inserts back. The replacement inserts were of the same cards I sent them and were the same serial numbers. The only difference were the fonts of the serial numbers. They were noticeably larger.

I have only 1 of the inserts left, a Gary Sheffield Elite insert, but scanned the back of the insert for you to see.



I don't own another Elite insert to show comparison, so here is a link to the regular font of the same card.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/2004-Donrus...ss!22025!US!-1

My replacement cards with different fonts came directly from Donruss. Did Topps ever do anything like this? Anyone else get replacement cards from Donruss like I did?

Bill

Very interesting - thanks for sharing. I have not heard of Topps doing something like this. While the font was larger, was it the same?

[Gem10collection]

Warning!!

This seller is trying to sell a backdoored Griffey. I have seen the pic of the back before and it is NOT genuine.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ken-Griffey...8AAOSwuh5fJhPX

[rj.cataldo]

Anyone aware of similar issues with the 1998 Finest "the man" refractors? Baseballpedia claims the Man was not known to have backdoors, but I've seen several copies with inconsistent stamping. Particularly with the stamping on "7s"

[storycollector]

This seems well-reasoned to me - surely someone on these boards has actually pack-pulled a Centurion refractor and could verify which serial-numbering it came with to confirm the analysis above?

This was helpful as I recently purchased a Larry Walker /75 and was glad to confirm via this analysis prior to purchase that it is likely to be a pack-pulled version (018/75), so thank you!

[Gem10collection]

Originally Posted by storycollector

This seems well-reasoned to me - surely someone on these boards has actually pack-pulled a Centurion refractor and could verify which serial-numbering it came with to confirm the analysis above?

This was helpful as I recently purchased a Larry Walker /75 and was glad to confirm via this analysis prior to purchase that it is likely to be a pack-pulled version (018/75), so thank you!

I wonder if there are any box breaks on youtube with a centurion refractor? I know in basketball, 100% they only have two numbers in the first half of the serial number xx/75

[sickmantz]

Originally Posted by chilly55

While this is not Topps related, back in 2004, I had several damaged inserts from my 2004 Donruss boxes that I opened. Among them were about a dozen serial numbered cards.

Donruss was great and told me to return the cards and they would replace them. I was expecting totally different cards, but to my amazement, they sent me the exact same serial numbered inserts back. The replacement inserts were of the same cards I sent them and were the same serial numbers. The only difference were the fonts of the serial numbers. They were noticeably larger.

I have only 1 of the inserts left, a Gary Sheffield Elite insert, but scanned the back of the insert for you to see.



I don't own another Elite insert to show comparison, so here is a link to the regular font of the same card.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/2004-Donrus...ss!22025!US!-1

My replacement cards with different fonts came directly from Donruss. Did Topps ever do anything like this? Anyone else get replacement cards from Donruss like I did?

Bill

Not Topps, but I had a 98 SPx Finite Spectrum replacement that came back hand-numbered.

[magicpapa]

Originally Posted by sickmantz

Not Topps, but I had a 98 SPx Finite Spectrum replacement that came back hand-numbered.

Paper Work is always nice

[rj.cataldo]

Sorry to bump this old thread, but I recently
Picked this up off eBay and wanted to get the thoughts of the forum. I know there are backdoored copies in slabs, but given this is a relatively recent slab and appears to align with some of the stamps in this thread I thought it was probably good.

Any thoughts from others are appreciated!





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[auburn35]

Nice Thomas. Serial looks good.

[NYBBFAN]

I wanted to bump this. The Bonds on eBay has a counterfeit stamp.

https://ebay.com/itm/364961556426

[RiceBondsMT2Yng]

Originally Posted by NYBBFAN

I wanted to bump this. The Bonds on eBay has a counterfeit stamp.

https://ebay.com/itm/364961556426

Sure does...good catch

[5pujols5]

I was in the process of putting this set together a few years ago until I learned of the duplicate/counterfeit issue. I have the legit McGwire that's still in the collection but let the rest go.

Question....the "Centurions" were in series 1 and the "The Man" were in series 2 with the same numbering (500 for the base and 75 for the refractors), does the same issue exist with those? Are there counterfeits out there with the false numbering?

[kaisersoze]

Originally Posted by 5pujols5

I was in the process of putting this set together a few years ago until I learned of the duplicate/counterfeit issue. I have the legit McGwire that's still in the collection but let the rest go.

Question....the "Centurions" were in series 1 and the "The Man" were in series 2 with the same numbering (500 for the base and 75 for the refractors), does the same issue exist with those? Are there counterfeits out there with the false numbering?

this. i recently obtained a PSA graded the man refractor (in a new slab) and was curious of this. picture of the numbering for reference.

[imbluestreak23]

Interesting thread.

I just had an order pop with a Griffey base /500 graded as N4. Womp womp