Attn Jeter Collectors: Avoid this Trimmed Card—2001 Fleer GOTG Autograph PSA 9

[superdan49]

I haven't posted too often in baseball recently, as most of the altered cards I've uncovered have been in football and basketball. But here is a tainted Derek Jeter baseball card, and a pretty significant one at that. This 2001 Fleer Greats of the Game Autograph of the Yankee Captain is one of the key SP's in this iconic early '00s set. Unfortunately, the PSA 9 example presently on eBay was formerly a PSA 8, and it has been trimmed as you will see:


Sold on eBay as a PSA 8/Auto 10 on 12/21/2017 for $835.00:

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...rek-1904621177







Currently for sale on eBay as a PSA 9 from seller avsports888 for $2,999.99:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PSA-9-DEREK...F/362448995684







As you can see in the second detailed photo, the lower left hand corner shows signs of trimming The autographs confirm it is the PSA 8 and the PSA 9 are the same card.











I have no evidence or leads as to who the trimmer is on this one. As always, any help you can provide is greatly appreciated.

[dictoresno]

while I do agree it could be trimmed, why didn't they take care of the top?? sometimes the corners of these softer border cards curl or whiten when touched and can be "flattened" back by dragging your finger carefully across them outward.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by dictoresno

while I do agree it could be trimmed, why didn't they take care of the top?? sometimes the corners of these softer border cards curl or whiten when touched and can be "flattened" back by dragging your finger carefully across them outward.

That ever-so-slight edge wear on the top and right of the PSA 9 is due to the cutting equipment used by the trimmer. The gold itself was removed by this process. It is one of the tell-tale signs I look for in finding trimmed cards.

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by superdan49

That ever-so-slight edge wear on the top and right of the PSA 9 is due to the cutting equipment used by the trimmer. The gold itself was removed by this process. It is one of the tell-tale signs I look for in finding trimmed cards.

Yep. Many trimmed cards have worse visually identifiable edge wear post-trimming. Some so much so that I wonder how they got the grades they did.

[Wiseguy917]

Thanks for all the work you do on here Superdan!!

Maybe one day people will understand that grading is a complete scam. Seems like more people are realizing this as of late but it’s still incredible how many people sink thousands if not 100s of thousands into this nonsense. It boggles my mind that decade long hobbyists still need to rely on some guy nobody knows at a 3rd party company to say whether their cards are mint or not.....and they obviously get it wrong, a lot!

[mattglet]

Originally Posted by Wiseguy917

Thanks for all the work you do on here Superdan!!

Maybe one day people will understand that grading is a complete scam. Seems like more people are realizing this as of late but it’s still incredible how many people sink thousands if not 100s of thousands into this nonsense. It boggles my mind that decade long hobbyists still need to rely on some guy nobody knows at a 3rd party company to say whether their cards are mint or not.....and they obviously get it wrong, a lot!

It's not that graders are getting it wrong per se, the problem is the error margin that exists for card size. Trimmers are taking off like 1/64" or 1/32" or 1/16" or whatever... and a card that is 1/16" or whatever smaller than the "proper" size is within the acceptable range. That's the loophole that's being taken advantage of.

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by mattglet

It's not that graders are getting it wrong per se, the problem is the error margin that exists for card size. Trimmers are taking off like 1/64" or 1/32" or 1/16" or whatever... and a card that is 1/16" or whatever smaller than the "proper" size is within the acceptable range. That's the loophole that's being taken advantage of.

I’m fairly confident that that at least BGS doesn’t measure many or most cards anyway.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by Wiseguy917

Thanks for all the work you do on here Superdan!!

Maybe one day people will understand that grading is a complete scam. Seems like more people are realizing this as of late but it’s still incredible how many people sink thousands if not 100s of thousands into this nonsense. It boggles my mind that decade long hobbyists still need to rely on some guy nobody knows at a 3rd party company to say whether their cards are mint or not.....and they obviously get it wrong, a lot!

rely? no.

enjoy when buying cards on line from folks that are only interested in self-pumping their goods for sale? indeed

[SaveMeTheGum]

I was on a Facebook group recently, and someone directed me to this guy. Has anyone seen this before? These kinds of things make me more and more wary of buying anything graded...

Striving for 10's Facebook

[Wiseguy917]

Originally Posted by mattglet

It's not that graders are getting it wrong per se, the problem is the error margin that exists for card size. Trimmers are taking off like 1/64" or 1/32" or 1/16" or whatever... and a card that is 1/16" or whatever smaller than the "proper" size is within the acceptable range. That's the loophole that's being taken advantage of.

Of course they’re getting it wrong. They’re supposed to be there to make sure cards are authentic, unaltered, and provide a condition.....if they fail to do either of the 3 correctly, they fail.

[mattglet]

Originally Posted by Wiseguy917

Of course they’re getting it wrong. They’re supposed to be there to make sure cards are authentic, unaltered, and provide a condition.....if they fail to do either of the 3 correctly, they fail.

That's my point - under their "rules" it is being done correctly. If they need to alter their rules, that's a different conversation.

[mouschi]

Originally Posted by mattglet

It's not that graders are getting it wrong per se, the problem is the error margin that exists for card size. Trimmers are taking off like 1/64" or 1/32" or 1/16" or whatever... and a card that is 1/16" or whatever smaller than the "proper" size is within the acceptable range. That's the loophole that's being taken advantage of.

I've read a ton of pages on this over the past few weeks and was wondering if this was the case. If there is not a margin of error and BGS/PSA are just looking the other way, it almost seems criminal. If there is a certain tolerance range, then this all quickly becomes a gray area.

[mattglet]

Originally Posted by mouschi

I've read a ton of pages on this over the past few weeks and was wondering if this was the case. If there is not a margin of error and BGS/PSA are just looking the other way, it almost seems criminal. If there is a certain tolerance range, then this all quickly becomes a gray area.

100% agree. The whole margin-of-error thing was discussed in the basketball forum in the Lebron thread - I can't remember who originally brought it up.

[mouschi]

On facebook, there was a lot of controversy stirred about whether "polishing" chrome cards (to get scratches out of the surface for a better BGS/PSA grade) was modifying ... rather ... altering them. I can see how it can be a slippery slope, with trimming within specs being somewhere on that same slope for people.

[Wiseguy917]

Originally Posted by mouschi

On facebook, there was a lot of controversy stirred about whether "polishing" chrome cards (to get scratches out of the surface for a better BGS/PSA grade) was modifying ... rather ... altering them. I can see how it can be a slippery slope, with trimming within specs being somewhere on that same slope for people.

I think wiping a card clean vs literally removing part of a card is 2 completely different things, 1 being drastically different than the other. Regardless, the fact that a possible gray area exists further solidifies the point that grading is a complete scam.....

[Cubsfanp]

Originally Posted by mouschi

On facebook, there was a lot of controversy stirred about whether "polishing" chrome cards (to get scratches out of the surface for a better BGS/PSA grade) was modifying ... rather ... altering them. I can see how it can be a slippery slope, with trimming within specs being somewhere on that same slope for people.

I feel like those who want to bring up wiping a card clean have no intent of making a legit argument. Their real purpose is to distract or lessen the trimming issue.

Altering a card is DRASTICALLY worse, and clearly wrong. Cleaning one is fine.

[mouschi]

Originally Posted by Wiseguy917

I think wiping a card clean vs literally removing part of a card is 2 completely different things, 1 being drastically different than the other. Regardless, the fact that a possible gray area exists further solidifies the point that grading is a complete scam.....

Originally Posted by Cubsfanp

I feel like those who want to bring up wiping a card clean have no intent of making a legit argument. Their real purpose is to distract or lessen the trimming issue.

Altering a card is DRASTICALLY worse, and clearly wrong. Cleaning one is fine.

Personally, I don't have a problem with wiping/polishing. Someone on facebook made an interesting point though - that removing scratches technically is modifying the face of the card. I guess technically that is right?

As for trimming, I see that as FAR different.

Ultimately, I don't think the graders can be silent about this any longer. I feel that they NEED to come out saying if there is a tolerance range or not. If there is not, then it is simply not fair for some people to get cards graded a 10 and others not. But if there is, then I think we may see the trimmers more like pack searchers and less like autograph forgers. Neither are desirable, but one is criminal.

[Wiseguy917]

Originally Posted by mouschi

Personally, I don't have a problem with wiping/polishing. Someone on facebook made an interesting point though - that removing scratches technically is modifying the face of the card. I guess technically that is right?

As for trimming, I see that as FAR different.

Ultimately, I don't think the graders can be silent about this any longer. I feel that they NEED to come out saying if there is a tolerance range or not. If there is not, then it is simply not fair for some people to get cards graded a 10 and others not. But if there is, then I think we may see the trimmers more like pack searchers and less like autograph forgers. Neither are desirable, but one is criminal.

Well since grading is completely 100% subjective, there will always be a tolerance range. People need to start understanding that the entire idea of grading modern is absolutely nonsense. Until there’s some magic computer with some magic software that will spit out grades with 100% objective certainty, the idea of grading is ridiculous. But hey, as long as there are buyers, I’ll be a seller, and I’ll continue to go on vacation for free every year.

[salthill]

Originally Posted by mouschi

Ultimately, I don't think the graders can be silent about this any longer. I feel that they NEED to come out saying if there is a tolerance range or not.

I never thought this was even in question - of course there’s a range. Cutting cards is sometimes a manual process (and definitely was in the past), so there is a natural variation in sizes as manufactured.

Here it’s automated...


But here it’s manual...
(see “Guillotine Cutting” at the 5min 22sec mark)
https://youtu.be/Z454X6wZko8?t=5m22s

[mouschi]

Originally Posted by salthill

I never thought this was even in question - of course there’s a range. Cutting cards is sometimes a manual process (and definitely was in the past), so there is a natural variation in sizes as manufactured.

Here it’s automated...


But here it’s manual...
(see “Guillotine Cutting” at the 5min 22sec mark)
https://youtu.be/Z454X6wZko8?t=5m26s

Perhaps it wasn't for anyone else, but after reading several pages on the subject here, it was the first question that popped into my head.

Regardless if there is a tolerance range or not, this whole thing just seems wrong. SuperDan49 - seriously, outstanding investigative work here. I'm curious to see how this whole thing unfolds!

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by Wiseguy917

Well since grading is completely 100% subjective, there will always be a tolerance range. People need to start understanding that the entire idea of grading modern is absolutely nonsense. Until there’s some magic computer with some magic software that will spit out grades with 100% objective certainty, the idea of grading is ridiculous. But hey, as long as there are buyers, I’ll be a seller, and I’ll continue to go on vacation for free every year.

wait, you sell slabs, but they are a scam?

[Wiseguy917]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

wait, you sell slabs, but they are a scam?

I sure do...and they sure are. I’ve explained on here many times on what I do and I’ve gotten many PMs and helped many members do it. A quick search and I’m sure you can find my posts on the matter.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by Wiseguy917

I sure do...and they sure are. I’ve explained on here many times on what I do and I’ve gotten many PMs and helped many members do it. A quick search and I’m sure you can find my posts on the matter.

what are your thoughts on selling illegal drugs?

[Wiseguy917]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

what are your thoughts on selling illegal drugs?

Become a doctor and make the money legally

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by Wiseguy917

Become a doctor and make the money legally