PWCC Selling Trimmed PSA 9 1964 Topps Willie Mays #150 PSA Cert #: 41207581

[3124508 on COMC]

This is the second trimmed PSA 9 1964 Topps Mays that PWCC has listed recently. The other one (PSA Cert #: 28899844) is posted here: https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=7487. There's a third trimmed PSA 9 posted in the Evan Mathis thread that PWCC also sold.

This one was first sold trimmed through the PWCC Vault on 10/16/2020 for $2,450.00. Trimmed top and bottom edges, though there has been much more stock removed on the top edge than the bottom edge. As usual, it has a PWCC eye appeal sticker, which typically indicates that the card is altered. Buyer beware.

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1655299
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/2816408

[Bhenry4]

At this point, it's on the buyers that are paying these stupid prices for graded cards. You really have to have your head in the sand.

[auburn35]

Thanks for keeping up on these.

If pulled, I'm guessing we will see this one again with PWCC expressing that the trimmed card, conforms with the current PSA grading standards.

[CaptSpaulding]

"I will say too. We have a buy back policy so if the card…if we…if we slab a card and 10 years later it turns out we shouldn’t have…umm…or it was trimmed or whatever, ya know, and we can and we re-review and re-examine it and sure enough, ya know, we can tell that yeah we missed it. Umm…sometimes we can’t tell by the way even if the…the, ya know, forums identify it. Like…we… ya know true as, true as day, I mean, we can’t tell and those are hard exceptions. Again fraud by definition is hard to detect."

Or something like that.

[pip]

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by Bhenry4

At this point, it's on the buyers that are paying these stupid prices for graded cards. You really have to have your head in the sand.

^^^^^

[pip]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

"I will say too. We have a buy back policy so if the card…if we…if we slab a card and 10 years later it turns out we shouldn’t have…umm…or it was trimmed or whatever, ya know, and we can and we re-review and re-examine it and sure enough, ya know, we can tell that yeah we missed it. Umm…sometimes we can’t tell by the way even if the…the, ya know, forums identify it. Like…we… ya know true as, true as day, I mean, we can’t tell and those are hard exceptions. Again fraud by definition is hard to detect."

Or something like that.

Add to this the statement from David Hall when he said the PSA 8 T206 Wagner wasn't trimmed because he had examined it outside of the holder and few others had had that opportunity. He knew. We, the great unwashed masses, didn't. That was also a classic.

[WhyMarinersWhy]

How many people in the hobby do you think know about this? It’s funny because everyone here on this site knows, but if I talk to anyone else who collects they have no idea it’s going on? Do you think 5%? 10%?

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by WhyMarinersWhy

How many people in the hobby do you think know about this? It’s funny because everyone here on this site knows, but if I talk to anyone else who collects they have no idea it’s going on? Do you think 5%? 10%?

The better question is how many collectors actually care and I would say it is no more than 5% and dropping each hour.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

The better question is how many collectors actually care and I would say it is no more than 5% and dropping each hour.

They will care when their trimmed "investments" are worth less than they paid for them.

I think there is fraud fatigue if you permit my alliteration.

[WhyMarinersWhy]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

The better question is how many collectors actually care and I would say it is no more than 5% and dropping each hour.

Great point. That’s what I don’t get — even if you can get past the morality issue, how do people feel safe pouring a bunch of money into something that could be taken down at any time? I don’t know if this will ever go “mainstream,” but if it does people will lose their azzes.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by pip

Add to this the statement from David Hall when he said the PSA 8 T206 Wagner wasn't trimmed because he had examined it outside of the holder and few others had had that opportunity. He knew. We, the great unwashed masses, didn't. That was also a classic.

Even if Mastro didn't trim it it already had been cut from a sheet. So it was already at best AUTH.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by WhyMarinersWhy

Great point. That’s what I don’t get — even if you can get past the morality issue, how do people feel safe pouring a bunch of money into something that could be taken down at any time? I don’t know if this will ever go “mainstream,” but if it does people will lose their azzes.

They trust in Nat and co., I guess.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by WhyMarinersWhy

Great point. That’s what I don’t get — even if you can get past the morality issue, how do people feel safe pouring a bunch of money into something that could be taken down at any time? I don’t know if this will ever go “mainstream,” but if it does people will lose their azzes.

I think there is a belief that it cannot collapse. That there is always a buyer and the grading companies will all be doing just fine in the future. Sorta like the too big to fail concept. And they might be right.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by pip

Add to this the statement from David Hall when he said the PSA 8 T206 Wagner wasn't trimmed because he had examined it outside of the holder and few others had had that opportunity. He knew. We, the great unwashed masses, didn't. That was also a classic.

I would not trust David Hall's opinion on where to get a great hamburger let alone his opinion on whether or not a card has been altered. He is one of those guys (and there are too many of them in the hobby) who really need a flip with a number on it to tell them what condition a card is in. Too bad those flips are not really reliable but that has not been an obstacle for the market.

[Donkaylove]

AND, i still cant get a job there...........

[RiceBondsMT2Yng]

Originally Posted by superdan49

They will care when their trimmed "investments" are worth less than they paid for them.

I think there is fraud fatigue if you permit my alliteration.

I agree. Barely anyone cares anymore. Unless it's happening to you. Which is of course why these threads are so important. Because they help the buyer of an individual card and they put pressure on the industry to do better.

I feel as if Nat Turner hears BODA and they are putting measures in place to do a better job at catching these. He seems sincere. I don't know why he doesn't just order Joe Orlando (who I really really don't like or trust) to stop dealing with open and notorious trimmers like Evan Mathis, if they still are, or just leave.

There is simply no way for them to catch all fraud. But they can do better and it sounds like they've taken steps. If they are actually trying to do better, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt to see if they can get their own house in order.

Given the amount of subs coming in, they no longer have to work with trimmers to goose revenue if they ever did. There is now only downside to colluding with trimmers if they ever did. A reputation is hard to repair.

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by RiceBondsMT2Yng

I agree. Barely anyone cares anymore. Unless it's happening to you. Which is of course why these threads are so important. Because they help the buyer of an individual card and they put pressure on the industry to do better.

I feel as if Nat Turner hears BODA and they are putting measures in place to do a better job at catching these. He seems sincere. I don't know why he doesn't just order Joe Orlando (who I really really don't like or trust) to stop dealing with open and notorious trimmers like Evan Mathis, if they still are, or just leave.

There is simply no way for them to catch all fraud. But they can do better and it sounds like they've taken steps. If they are actually trying to do better, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt to see if they can get their own house in order.

Given the amount of subs coming in, they no longer have to work with trimmers to goose revenue if they ever did. There is now only downside to colluding with trimmers if they ever did. A reputation is hard to repair.

Have you seen the dozens of “Grade Reviewed by PSA” cards? Clearly PSA isn’t capable of detecting alterations, or more likely, doesn’t care to.

[RiceBondsMT2Yng]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

Have you seen the dozens of “Grade Reviewed by PSA” cards? Clearly PSA isn’t capable of detecting alterations, or more likely, doesn’t care to.

I think they are incapable. I believe Nat Turner is a true collector so he wants them to. It's possible no one can. Regardless, they sure can't. At least not now. At least not at scale. Maybe if they did a more rigorous analysis of all cards worth 25k or more or something but where do you draw the time. And at the same time you guys have shown that creeps will trip a $0.50 card if it will make them a buck

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by RiceBondsMT2Yng

I think they are incapable. I believe Nat Turner is a true collector so he wants them to. It's possible no one can. Regardless, they sure can't. At least not now. At least not at scale. Maybe if they did a more rigorous analysis of all cards worth 25k or more or something but where do you draw the time. And at the same time you guys have shown that creeps will trip a $0.50 card if it will make them a buck

This.

The only consistent and real service of value is encapsulating the card in a protective slab…and identifying the card. This should be a $5 service…at most.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

Have you seen the dozens of “Grade Reviewed by PSA” cards? Clearly PSA isn’t capable of detecting alterations, or more likely, doesn’t care to.

I am going with no incentive to detect alterations on previously graded cards. Why admit you are wrong AND write a check when you do not have to?

[ucLAkers]

The BODA Gazette these days should read as such…

“PWCC sells legitimate card at legitimate price with free shipping”……it would be more of a shocker than every other thread.

[Rooftop]

Sure seems the cards that gets the sticker are altered

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by Rooftop

Sure seems the cards that gets the sticker are altered

Careful...there are some very sensitive boys around here who take a huge objection to that notion however your observation is fairly accurate.

Of course Bestsy told me via email that Brent assigns those eye appeal stickers without knowing whose cards they are going to. Brent's submissions to PSA were full of cards that received the eye appeal stickers. I am sure that it is nothing more than than Brent not realizing he happened to be stickering his own cards.

[ken161]

Originally Posted by WhyMarinersWhy

How many people in the hobby do you think know about this? It’s funny because everyone here on this site knows, but if I talk to anyone else who collects they have no idea it’s going on? Do you think 5%? 10%?

I asked the owner of a local card store. He's a nice guy and deals in mainly new wax, with a smattering of vintage. Very few graded cards. When I asked him if he'd seen these threads with literally thousands of outed cards, he looked at me like I was from another planet. He had absolutely no idea what I was talking about. And he probably spends 50-60 hours a week in his store.

If Beckett had run a few stories exposing the rampant fraud, he'd sure as hell know about it. But that's another story altogether.