Group sub wrongly taken - Felony Theft

[TheBlake58]

Everyone’s worst fear. Group sub done wrong with felony theft.

Btw guys/gals, long time lurker and first time poster.

I want to make an important note, while the group subber was negligent, they made a mistake. While it was a HUGE mistake, it was a mistake. I do not believe it was on purpose or pre-meditated. I have subbed with this person around 12+ times and every sub went smoothly except for this one instance. I’m saying this because I am not going after his reputation – only the true thief and dishonest person as explained below.
Additionally, once the group subber knew he made a mistake he called me immediately and told me the truth with all the details. Yes it sucks, but I honestly believe the group subber is a good guy/good business who again, made a mistake. Lets please focus on Redbeardsportscards (Bryan).

I submitted 136 cards at the end of July 2020 to a group subber (well known in the industry). The group subber confirmed receipt of the cards via instagram per their business model.
On July 21st of this year, I asked the group subber to please give me the group sub number so I can track on their spreadsheet. This spreadsheet is on their instagram and is used by customers to track where their orders are in the PSA system. The group subber got back to me, but it was the wrong sub number (provided was a previous sub already returned to me).
Time goes by and I get another submission returned to me. At the same time, I followed up on my July 2020 sub once again.
This was 5 days ago.
4 days ago I got a call with the bad news.
Apparently when the order came back from PSA, the group subber didn't know whose order it was due to their new tracking system/switching physical locations and my name not being linked. The group subber asked an acquaintance of his, Redbeardsportscards (Bryan), if the order was his and his response was YES.
Redbeardsportscards (Bryan) then came by and picked up the order in person since they live near each other.
Redbeardsportscards (Bryan) then proceeded to sell 130/136 of the order thru either his ebay, consignment and at the national card show. Mind you, he picked up the cards early June 2021 and has since sold/consigned almost ALL OF THEM.
Once the group subber researched my questions regarding my missing sub, he found out his error and let me know all the details. He did not hide any information from me and was upfront that he screwed up. He also contacted Redbeardsportscards (Bryan) to let him know.
When I received the initial call, I was sent my grades (containing PSA serial numbers of the slabs – all the information relating to the sub). I also received a spreadsheet Redbeardsportscards (Bryan) put together to show his sales. Mind you, the sales sheets contained no evidence of sales. They were simply round numbers and from the looks of it, all below comps. Clearly this guy knew he had hot product and wanted to unload ASAP (thus selling below comps per his sales sheet). Probably also making a lot of cash/friends & family transactions.
I was told Redbeardsportscards (Bryan) will pay me back all the money he made from the sales (his estimated $13k) and give me the 6 cards he still has remaining.

Note: Most of my submission was soccer cards, more notably 44 cards of Erling Haaland including five PSA 10s of his Topps UCL sticker (low pop) and 4 FIFA stickers in PSA 10 (low pop). The rest were his Topps NOW rookies (mostly in PSA 10).

All these cards I would NOT have sold, at least not now. For those that don’t follow soccer, these Haaland Topps NOW cards are limited print and at one point $700+ for some of them. The soccer season has just started and I expect these cards to increase in value over the coming months. My opportunity cost of future sales just went out the window.

This is an incredibly unfortunate situation I never thought I would be in. Clearly Redbeardsportscards (Bryan) knew what he was doing and tried to commit fraud. He did commit fraud. After all, this is accepting goods that weren't his and sold them. That itself is a felony theft. It is the same situation as “finding” $20k in your bank account due to error, withdrawing it, and spending it. Felony theft.

After speaking on the phone (3-way with the group subber and Redbeardsportscards (Bryan) he acted as if it was an honest mistake. He claims he was buying all the same cards at the same time and just didn’t pay any attention. This is clearly #@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@. For instance, I had 44 Ja Morant rookie stickers (mostly in PSA 10) and I blatantly asked him if that seemed odd when he picked up his sub. I mean, who else besides myself, bought and submitted 44 Ja Morant rookie stickers? Again, he claimed he was buying the same cards at the same time as myself and didn’t notice. His overall demeanor on the phone was as if this wasn’t a big deal. Not apologetic in the least. The dude even snapped at me.
Oh, and here is a fun piece of information, he was trying to prove how honest of a guy he was and said he submitted one of the Haaland PSA 10 stickers to a charity at the National. What a great guy huh? Submitting MY PSA 10 Haaland rookie to a charity. How swell.

From what I know, this Redbeardsportscards guy is big player in the Tampa area and runs/organizes sports card shows regularly. He even has one coming up Memorial Day weekend per his Instagram account. PSA seems to be a sponsor.
Negotiations. At first, Redbeardsportscards (Bryan) said he would give me his estimated sales for my cards (his declared $13k) plus the 6 cards he had left over. Again, he created a spreadsheet with round numbers. No evidence of sales. I’m sure he completed many cash transactions and sold for who knows what. For all I know, he sold my cards for $20k. There is no way to truly know.
I later looked up comps for my cards and it came out to a conservative $17.6k. Again, this was a conservative estimate for cards I DID NOT WANT TO SELL.
He thought I was price gouging him. He later said he recovered three of my Haaland Topps stickers in PSA 10 and would give me the 9 cards he had plus $9k. I mean, seriously? His offer now decreased.
I only dealt with the group submitter going forward for negotiations.
I was losing sleep over this, anxiety, etc and wanted it all to be over. Afterall, I was in fear of getting NOTHING back since he kept lowering his offer.
Finally the group subber agreed to pay me $14k, waive the grading fees, and send me the 9 cards back free of charge. I accepted knowing this was probably the best deal I would get.
This is a completely messed up situation. This Redbeardsportscards (Bryan) is a scammer and theif. His reputation should not stand after this.
There are more details to this story, but nothing important to the overall plot.
I consulted lawyer friends who all said I should press chards on Redbeardsportscards (Bryan) immediately. After all, it is felony theft. I was also told to sue. All these options are time consuming and after dealing with this for two days I did not want to deal with it any longer.
Sorry for the long post, but there is no way I’m letting this guy get away with what he did. I have no ruled out pressing charges as I have concrete evidence.

[KhalDrogo]

Why do you not name the group submitter?

[armyatc22]

Wow....If its the group subber I think it is (I use them too because they get great results) that's crazy.

The amount of cards they process through them is nuts too so you'd think this scenario happens more often than you think but you just never want it to be yours. Currently my sub I sent in Aug is being shipped back finally after a year and it has some of the biggest cards I've ever turned in (Hence the huge upcharge I had to pay on a few lol)

Really sucks to hear man

[jcardstore]

Sounds like you should sue Bryan for the full market value of the cards. I don't know what pressing felony theft charges is really going to do

[Boo]

Lawsuite!

I think the bus driving lawyer Bob Loblaw is in FL.

[TheBlake58]

The group subber is KK Sportscards. I was hesitant to name them because of reasons mentioned above - I did not want to ruin their reputation or put them on blast. Unfortunately because of Redbeardsportscards, they will see fire due to the association with him.

[PSA2Pac]

Tragic. Sorry that happened, OP.

Id name the submitter. People should know ahead of time, before subbing to said person.

Unfortunately these types of mistakes just can’t happen. If it’s the result of taking in too many cards, they should cease from taking that many cards.

Just saw you named em. People can make up their own minds. Even though they didn’t take the cards themselves, they did make the initial error. Even if it wasn’t on purpose, the mistake is unacceptable.

[axt]

Already asked and answered.

[Arianny_Fan]

If you indeed have lawyer friends, than yes, listen to what they say and sue the guy. Hell even without them I'd sue. I hate guys like that. If at all possible would the group submitter help testify or write a written statement about the mishap? If yes, red bear is pretty much toast isnt he? Keep us posted on what happens. Hope the guy gets what he deserves, and glad you got what you got back instead of bothing.

[RogerGodahell]

Sorry for your loss man that sucks. I've been through a similar situation in the past buying pre-orders for about the same amount of money and they decided to keep for themselves and break on camera then tell me the orders were delayed for 2 months. It's not fun watching someone rip open and sell product you paid for. I feel your pain.

[Chrominator]

Déjà vu?

I feel like we've been down this road not too long ago...

[tennelson55]

Originally Posted by TheBlake58

The group subber is KK Sportscards. I was hesitant to name them because of reasons mentioned above - I did not want to ruin their reputation or put them on blast. Unfortunately because of Redbeardsportscards, they will see fire due to the association with him.

There's only one person at fault here. Look to the bolded.

Redbeard also at fault, but when push comes to shove KK shipped your card to someone else... They are at fault.

Redbeard obviously the douche, but douches aren't liable in this instance.

[Blake050]

100% press charges. He had to have known those weren't his cards. I can understand not realizing they're not his cards if it was a few cards that got mixed in with his grading order. But to accept 140 cards that he didn't submit is blatantly intentional. There's no way anyone can not know those aren't your cards.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by TheBlake58

The group subber is KK Sportscards. I was hesitant to name them because of reasons mentioned above - I did not want to ruin their reputation or put them on blast. Unfortunately because of Redbeardsportscards, they will see fire due to the association with him.

The group submitter is the one who made the mistake. They should reimburse you for fair market value, and recuperate the fund themselves from the guy they mistakenly gave the cards to. You are being way to nice here.

[trmpetyjo]

By you not naming names it causes all those who are not familiar with them to associate every group sub with this terrible situation. So basically everybody is going to the think the worst about all the good sub groups because we are all guessing in the dark. By trying to protect the integrity of one, it is causing doubt and fear for all the other sub groups

[Brobocop]

Originally Posted by trmpetyjo

By you not naming names it causes all those who are not familiar with them to associate every group sub with this terrible situation. So basically everybody is going to the think the worst about all the good sub groups because we are all guessing in the dark. By trying to protect the integrity of one, it is causing doubt and fear for all the other sub groups

They named the group submitter, try to keep up.

[Scjacob827]

Originally Posted by trmpetyjo

By you not naming names it causes all those who are not familiar with them to associate every group sub with this terrible situation. So basically everybody is going to the think the worst about all the good sub groups because we are all guessing in the dark. By trying to protect the integrity of one, it is causing doubt and fear for all the other sub groups

He already named them above in the comments.

[Chrominator]

Originally Posted by TheBlake58

The group subber is KK Sportscards. I was hesitant to name them because of reasons mentioned above - I did not want to ruin their reputation or put them on blast. Unfortunately because of Redbeardsportscards, they will see fire due to the association with him.

Originally Posted by Chrominator

Déjà vu?

I feel like we've been down this road not too long ago...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...KK+Sportscards

[trmpetyjo]

Originally Posted by Brobocop

They named the group submitter, try to keep up.

It's a lesson for future posts about this kind of crap. Try to look ahead a bit!

[Boo]

Originally Posted by TheBlake58

Everyone’s worst fear. Group sub done wrong with felony theft.

Btw guys/gals, long time lurker and first time poster.

I want to make an important note, while the group subber was negligent, they made a mistake. While it was a HUGE mistake, it was a mistake. I do not believe it was on purpose or pre-meditated. I have subbed with this person around 12+ times and every sub went smoothly except for this one instance. I’m saying this because I am not going after his reputation – only the true thief and dishonest person as explained below.

I submitted 136 cards at the end of July 2020 to a group subber (well known in the industry). The group subber confirmed receipt of the cards via instagram per their business model.
On July 21st of this year, I asked the group subber to please give me the group sub number so I can track on their spreadsheet. This spreadsheet is on their instagram and is used by customers to track where their orders are in the PSA system. The group subber got back to me, but it was the wrong sub number (provided was a previous sub already returned to me).
Time goes by and I get another submission returned to me. At the same time, I followed up on my July 2020 sub once again.
This was 5 days ago.
4 days ago I got a call with the bad news.
Apparently when the order came back from PSA, the group subber didn't know whose order it was due to their new tracking system/switching physical locations and my name not being linked. The group subber asked an acquaintance of his, Redbeardsportscards (Bryan), if the order was his and his response was YES.
Redbeardsportscards (Bryan) then came by and picked up the order in person since they live near each other.
Redbeardsportscards (Bryan) then proceeded to sell 130/136 of the order thru either his ebay, consignment and at the national card show. Mind you, he picked up the cards early June 2021 and has since sold/consigned almost ALL OF THEM.
Once the group subber researched my questions regarding my missing sub, he found out his error and let me know all the details. He did not hide any information from me and was upfront that he screwed up. He also contacted Redbeardsportscards (Bryan) to let him know.
When I received the initial call, I was sent my grades (containing PSA serial numbers of the slabs – all the information relating to the sub). I also received a spreadsheet Redbeardsportscards (Bryan) put together to show his sales. Mind you, the sales sheets contained no evidence of sales. They were simply round numbers and from the looks of it, all below comps. Clearly this guy knew he had hot product and wanted to unload ASAP (thus selling below comps per his sales sheet). Probably also making a lot of cash/friends & family transactions.
I was told Redbeardsportscards (Bryan) will pay me back all the money he made from the sales (his estimated $13k) and give me the 6 cards he still has remaining.

Note: Most of my submission was soccer cards, more notably 44 cards of Erling Haaland including five PSA 10s of his Topps UCL sticker (low pop) and 4 FIFA stickers in PSA 10 (low pop). The rest were his Topps NOW rookies (mostly in PSA 10).

All these cards I would NOT have sold, at least not now. For those that don’t follow soccer, these Haaland Topps NOW cards are limited print and at one point $700+ for some of them. The soccer season has just started and I expect these cards to increase in value over the coming months. My opportunity cost of future sales just went out the window.

This is an incredibly unfortunate situation I never thought I would be in. Clearly Redbeardsportscards (Bryan) knew what he was doing and tried to commit fraud. He did commit fraud. After all, this is accepting goods that weren't his and sold them. That itself is a felony theft. It is the same situation as “finding” $20k in your bank account due to error, withdrawing it, and spending it. Felony theft.

After speaking on the phone (3-way with the group subber and Redbeardsportscards (Bryan) he acted as if it was an honest mistake. He claims he was buying all the same cards at the same time and just didn’t pay any attention. This is clearly #@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@. For instance, I had 44 Ja Morant rookie stickers (mostly in PSA 10) and I blatantly asked him if that seemed odd when he picked up his sub. I mean, who else besides myself, bought and submitted 44 Ja Morant rookie stickers? Again, he claimed he was buying the same cards at the same time as myself and didn’t notice. His overall demeanor on the phone was as if this wasn’t a big deal. Not apologetic in the least. The dude even snapped at me.
Oh, and here is a fun piece of information, he was trying to prove how honest of a guy he was and said he submitted one of the Haaland PSA 10 stickers to a charity at the National. What a great guy huh? Submitting MY PSA 10 Haaland rookie to a charity. How swell.

From what I know, this Redbeardsportscards guy is big player in the Tampa area and runs/organizes sports card shows regularly. He even has one coming up Memorial Day weekend per his Instagram account. PSA seems to be a sponsor.
Negotiations. At first, Redbeardsportscards (Bryan) said he would give me his estimated sales for my cards (his declared $13k) plus the 6 cards he had left over. Again, he created a spreadsheet with round numbers. No evidence of sales. I’m sure he completed many cash transactions and sold for who knows what. For all I know, he sold my cards for $20k. There is no way to truly know.
I later looked up comps for my cards and it came out to a conservative $17.6k. Again, this was a conservative estimate for cards I DID NOT WANT TO SELL.
He thought I was price gouging him. He later said he recovered three of my Haaland Topps stickers in PSA 10 and would give me the 9 cards he had plus $9k. I mean, seriously? His offer now decreased.
I only dealt with the group submitter going forward for negotiations.
I was losing sleep over this, anxiety, etc and wanted it all to be over. Afterall, I was in fear of getting NOTHING back since he kept lowering his offer.
Finally the group subber agreed to pay me $14k, waive the grading fees, and send me the 9 cards back free of charge. I accepted knowing this was probably the best deal I would get.
This is a completely messed up situation. This Redbeardsportscards (Bryan) is a scammer and theif. His reputation should not stand after this.
There are more details to this story, but nothing important to the overall plot.
I consulted lawyer friends who all said I should press chards on Redbeardsportscards (Bryan) immediately. After all, it is felony theft. I was also told to sue. All these options are time consuming and after dealing with this for two days I did not want to deal with it any longer.
Sorry for the long post, but there is no way I’m letting this guy get away with what he did. I have no ruled out pressing charges as I have concrete evidence.

Quoting for the archives...


Good luck OP. It sucks but hopefully someone steps up and gives you fair market value without the hassle of suing.

[auctionjmm]

Originally Posted by Arianny_Fan

If you indeed have lawyer friends, than yes, listen to what they say and sue the guy. Hell even without them I'd sue. I hate guys like that. If at all possible would the group submitter help testify or write a written statement about the mishap? If yes, red bear is pretty much toast isnt he? Keep us posted on what happens. Hope the guy gets what he deserves, and glad you got what you got back instead of bothing.

In this case I believe he would be. The only way he could have "legally" got away with this is if PSA accidentally shipped the cards to him. The FTC treats shipping mistakes as "gifts".

"Customers who receive unordered merchandise are legally entitled to treat the merchandise as a gift," the guide says, noting that businesses cannot try to get payment for the item, nor can businesses demand the item be returned.

But since PSA did send to the right address and the transaction took place after delivery, there is good reason to believe that Red Bear could be charged.

[Onepocketj]

You waited over a year to get the sub number and details of your sub?

[TheBlake58]

Originally Posted by Onepocketj

You waited over a year to get the sub number and details of your sub?

This was the case for any submission submitted prior to about August due to them going to a new tracker. I was new to the hobby when I submitted this sub, but you're right I should have gathered it for my own tracking purposes. Again, all my other subs worked out great.

[RogerGodahell]

Originally Posted by Chrominator

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...KK+Sportscards

That was the same person that submitted that card? I remember that story about the Namath rookie and he tried to tell the guy it was a reprint. How did it end up without me reading 25 pages? That's an awful lot of money stolen if that was a real Namath RC. Yikes

[kyleuk21]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

The group submitter is the one who made the mistake. They should reimburse you for fair market value, and recuperate the fund themselves from the guy they mistakenly gave the cards to. You are being way to nice here.

It sounds like that already happened? Subber agreed to pay 14k, waive grading fees, and send back the other 9 cards (I assume 5k-ish value?). Based on that, OP is made whole minus the disappointment of not being able to keep any. That sucks of course, but sounds like he is made whole in terms of dollars. Correct me if I'm wrong.