Are Championships Overrated When Ranking?

[dasiegel]

I love listening to sports talk radio and all the sports debate shows but man some of the arguments on who is better than who drive me nuts. The argument always comes down to who has more championships.

To me that is a method of dividing the best of the best from each other but it doesn't tell the whole picture. It doesn't even tell most of the picture.

I think that we all agree that the end goal is to win and winning means something. On one hand. that is why I feel a guy like Chauncey Billups is a HOF'er whether he is in or not. Because to me, he was the best player and the leader on a team that was dominant for about 5 years and beat a Shaq/Kobe Laker team nobody ever expected them to beat.

But there is a long list of guys who never won a title: Barkley, Stockton, Malone, Ewing, Miller, Baylor, etc. There is another list of guys who won a title later in their careers as role players or second/third tier stars like Robinson, Mourning, Payton, Kidd, etc.

Deciding who is better Jason Kidd or Allen Iverson for example I'm sure can go either way depending on who you ask. But Kidd's title as a solid semi-star on Dallas should not be the tie breaker. He was a nice part of that team but that was Dirk's team. He was a steady PG with great leadership but he was about the 7th offensive option on that team. I think you would have to ask who could do more statistically, who could get a team further with less, who could take over a game more, etc.

Carrying a team for your whole career and never winning should still mean a lot. If you get to the Finals but can't get over the hump as a team it doesn't usually mean the player was not as good as another player, but the team wasn't as good as the other team. Lebron is better than everyone on the Warriors but the Cavs usually weren't.

As a fan and as a "who's better" ranker, I would take a guy like Barkley over a guy like Pierce (even though I like them both a lot) and not just take the guy with the ring. There are way too many other factors when saying who was a better player.

[Orangejello727]

For me personally its the combination of leading your team to championships. You have to the the leader of the team that wins. That combo ranks #1 for me

[Duncancollector]

For me personally its the combination of leading your team to championships. You have to the the leader of the team that wins. That combo ranks #1 for me

Agree 100%

[brettmik59]

Rings are overrated.

If you carried a team on your back to a title, like LeBron, that's obviously a huge feather in your cap. How many guys have actually done that though? Most championship teams have at least 2 HOFers on the roster. MJ/Pippen. Kobe/Shaq. Durant/Curry(/Thompson?). The list goes on. There's 5 guys on the court at all times. It's not tennis or golf.

[COMCMax]

I hate ranking.

Had argument with a coworker that doesn't know anything more about the NBA than what he sees in his social media feed. Telling me Kobe isn't top 10 player without Shaq.

Whole conversation started because he watched Blue Chips on Netflix lol

[pennywise]

Whole conversation started because he watched Blue Chips on Netflix lol

Love that movie. Most of the acting is abysmal but dammit I love that movie.


To me, it's a combination of tangibles and intangibles. Stats, rings, impact, eye test, etc.. Ranking players is needless but it IS fun.

[COMCMax]

Love that movie. Most of the acting is abysmal but dammit I love that movie.


To me, it's a combination of tangibles and intangibles. Stats, rings, impact, eye test, etc.. Ranking players is needless but it IS fun.

Yea, great flick. I don't mind discussing rankings with people...in our hobby. Lol

Coworker turned into Pat Riley on me from his social media, fantasy, and sports center top 10 plays background knowledge in sports.

[dasiegel]

I hate ranking.

Had argument with a coworker that doesn't know anything more about the NBA than what he sees in his social media feed. Telling me Kobe isn't top 10 player without Shaq.

Whole conversation started because he watched Blue Chips on Netflix lol

LOL.

Kobe is the player that drives me maybe the most nuts during these conversations. When I hear people dismissing him today it reminds me of how people older than me must've felt when I was arguing that "my" players were better than theirs.

I remember clear as day that between about 06-10 there were the Kobe GOAT conversations. Was he better than MJ? He had a better outside shot, he scored 81 pts, he had a stretch where he scored 50 pts in 4 straight games. Earlier in his career he had 9 straight 40 point games. He was a #1a and a #1 during 5 championships. He played both sides of the ball, had a killer instinct etc.

Fast forward to 2011ish, when Lebron started going to the Finals and was part of the new big 3, everyone forgot about Kobe. By 2015-16 after Kobe had a few injury ridden seasons anyone under the age of 18 would tell you Lebron was now better.

If you talk to people today, they will tell you Duncan is better, Durant is better, some may even argue Curry or a few other newer names.

It is unreal how people forget what was once this exact same discussion with another player. Whatever is current seems to be who is the GOAT or in the top 10 talks.

[VIII]

@dasiegel is right on point. Can't explain it any better.

[COMCMax]

LOL.

Kobe is the player that drives me maybe the most nuts during these conversations. When I hear people dismissing him today it reminds me of how people older than me must've felt when I was arguing that "my" players were better than theirs.

I remember clear as day that between about 06-10 there were the Kobe GOAT conversations. Was he better than MJ? He had a better outside shot, he scored 81 pts, he had a stretch where he scored 50 pts in 4 straight games. Earlier in his career he had 9 straight 40 point games. He was a #1a and a #1 during 5 championships. He played both sides of the ball, had a killer instinct etc.

Fast forward to 2011ish, when Lebron started going to the Finals and was part of the new big 3, everyone forgot about Kobe. By 2015-16 after Kobe had a few injury ridden seasons anyone under the age of 18 would tell you Lebron was now better.

If you talk to people today, they will tell you Duncan is better, Durant is better, some may even argue Curry or a few other newer names.

It is unreal how people forget what was once this exact same discussion with another player. Whatever is current seems to be who is the GOAT or in the top 10 talks.

Yup, you nailed it. I coulda used ya.

[dasiegel]

Yup, you nailed it. I coulda used ya.

hahaha next time shoot me a text and i'll argue with your friends lol

[SHowley2003]

Ah, I love these conversation. I hear you guys in the Kobe talk. It’s so tough to compare players across decades. So many of these conversations get stuck in the “what have you done for me lately”. I love the Barkley/Pierce comparison though. It’s a great point. For me you have to start by comparing players within their own “generation”. For example would you take Malone or Barkley? Kidd, AI or Nash? Then you expand from there.

I do out an emphasis on rings as historically the greats have won and through the history of the NBA the team with the best player won. Jordan ruined that by being so dominant (he is the GOAT) and then the “super teams have changed things that will take an entire generation to assess IMO.

For example, I believe Pierce and Barkley are both severely underrated these days. It’s tough to compare them thoug as Pierce was able to team up with two other HOFers which lead to a ring. If the Pierce/Walker combo simply added Rondo and Tony Allen they would have likely been to the ECF and Finals a couple of times but never won it. Barkley didn’t play in that type of NBA so the ring becomes a mute point in the comparison. Some could say Barkley should have lead his team to one, but Pierce should have 2-3 if that’s the case.

[ballhawkdawk]

Greatness is measured by achievement. “Who’s better?” requires an objective ability to assess actual performance aka the eye test. Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback of the last 20 years, maybe ever. Aaron Rodgers is the best quarterback of the last 20 years, maybe ever. Sorry to bring football to the basketball section, but it’s the easiest example.

[COMCMax]

Rumor is Thanos was at that game and flinched :D

https://steamusercontent-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/309991739116172177/7811E1CE04BB8C2F31C16362C7EAC6B13C9F3C9B/

[6celtics33]

I think it’s a good way to separate the top 10-15 players of all time but after that no. For example, all the 90s greats didn’t win titles largely due to Jordan. Should they be penalized for that? No, they lost to people better than them.

Chris Paul currently I look at the same way.

He’s played the West his whole career. I don’t judge him as harshly for losing when he lost to Kobe, Duncan, the Warriors every year. They were better.

To the poster above, when did Lebron ever drag his team to a title?

Kyrie and Love might not sound as big a name as Pippen but they were putting up 40 point games and 30-10 games. That’s help.

Wade and Bosh too

[6celtics33]

It’s not a coincidence that all the very best players have succeeded at the highest levels and led their team to a title

[salthill]

It’s not a coincidence that all the very best players have succeeded at the highest levels and led their team to a title


That’s a circular argument. You’ve defined “best” as winning championships.
(I’m prickly because I’m a Dolphins/Marino fan. [emoji2])

[6celtics33]

That’s a circular argument. You’ve defined “best” as winning championships.
(I’m prickly because I’m a Dolphins/Marino fan. [emoji2])

Football players only play half the game. Quarterbacks have an impact but not the same as an elite basketball player playing 42/48 minutes who has the ball in their hands quite a bit and plays defense.

[salthill]

Football players only play half the game. Quarterbacks have an impact but not the same as an elite basketball player playing 42/48 minutes who has the ball in their hands quite a bit and plays defense.


Very true. A basketball player has much more influence over the final outcome than any one football player, both in terms of their direct performance and their influence on the other players on the court.

[indyguy]

I hate ranking.

Had argument with a coworker that doesn't know anything more about the NBA than what he sees in his social media feed. Telling me Kobe isn't top 10 player without Shaq.

Whole conversation started because he watched Blue Chips on Netflix lol

Most conversations should start because of watching Blue Chips on Netflix. I'm not sure I want to live in a world that doesn't have conversations start after watching Blue Chips on Netflix!

[dasiegel]

Rumor is Thanos was at that game and flinched :D

https://steamusercontent-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/309991739116172177/7811E1CE04BB8C2F31C16362C7EAC6B13C9F3C9B/

Still the greatest reaction of all time. Not even an eye blink.

I think it’s a good way to separate the top 10-15 players of all time but after that no. For example, all the 90s greats didn’t win titles largely due to Jordan. Should they be penalized for that? No, they lost to people better than them.

Chris Paul currently I look at the same way.

He’s played the West his whole career. I don’t judge him as harshly for losing when he lost to Kobe, Duncan, the Warriors every year. They were better.

To the poster above, when did Lebron ever drag his team to a title?

Kyrie and Love might not sound as big a name as Pippen but they were putting up 40 point games and 30-10 games. That’s help.

Wade and Bosh too

Lebron did it in 06-07 (edit: to the final on his own)

It’s not a coincidence that all the very best players have succeeded at the highest levels and led their team to a title

The top 10 type guys sure but even Dream team level players like Drexler never won until they teamed up with Hakeem and the NBA champ Rockets. KG, Allen, Pierce, Durant, Bosh, Love, and many modern day guys are unreal but needed help to win. David Robinson was never the best player on a title team.

[mc1]

Rings are overrated.

If you carried a team on your back to a title, like LeBron, that's obviously a huge feather in your cap. How many guys have actually done that though? Most championship teams have at least 2 HOFers on the roster. MJ/Pippen. Kobe/Shaq. Durant/Curry(/Thompson?). The list goes on. There's 5 guys on the court at all times. It's not tennis or golf.

When has Lebron ever won the title without any help? You counting 2007 and 2018? They got swept when it counted.

[slum22]

I think for the most part championships have become very overrated in the modern discussion of player rankings. I think when you are discussing a player's historical ranking the resume of the player begins with his statistical accomplishments. You have to have achieved a certain threshold of statistical success, whether it be in your peak or over the course of your career, to be put into any tier of all time ranking: whether it be top 3, top 10, top 25, top 50, etc. Once you fall into a tier then using factors like team success (championships would be included here) as well as awards like MVP's, All-NBA teams, All Star appearances, DPOY's etc. can be used to rank players within certain tiers. I think MVP's and All NBA teams help to parse out players who were truly dominant during their generations vs. guys who could be more statistical compilers. For instance, Mark Jackson currently sits at 4th all time in Assists ahead of Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomas but no one would argue that he was as impactful as either and it bears out based on their awards/honors pedigree. Jackson was very good for a long time. Magic and Isiah were great for a shorter period of time but more impactful overall.

[slum22]

Rings are overrated.

If you carried a team on your back to a title, like LeBron, that's obviously a huge feather in your cap. How many guys have actually done that though? Most championship teams have at least 2 HOFers on the roster. MJ/Pippen. Kobe/Shaq. Durant/Curry(/Thompson?). The list goes on. There's 5 guys on the court at all times. It's not tennis or golf.

Lebron never carried a team to a title. He played with three HOFers in Miami (Ray Allen past his prime but Wade and Bosh in their primes) and depending on how their careers unfold from here two more in Cleveland. At the very least Kyrie and Love were All-Stars during the Cleveland run. Kyrie averaged 30 points per game during their comeback from the 3-1 deficit and made the series winning shot. And not on a Paxson, Kerr kickout, the play was run for Kyrie to take and make the shot. And I am not hating on Lebron here, I have him ranked top 2 or 3 all time currently and he still has time to move up.

LOL.

Kobe is the player that drives me maybe the most nuts during these conversations. When I hear people dismissing him today it reminds me of how people older than me must've felt when I was arguing that "my" players were better than theirs.

I remember clear as day that between about 06-10 there were the Kobe GOAT conversations. Was he better than MJ? He had a better outside shot, he scored 81 pts, he had a stretch where he scored 50 pts in 4 straight games. Earlier in his career he had 9 straight 40 point games. He was a #1a and a #1 during 5 championships. He played both sides of the ball, had a killer instinct etc.

Fast forward to 2011ish, when Lebron started going to the Finals and was part of the new big 3, everyone forgot about Kobe. By 2015-16 after Kobe had a few injury ridden seasons anyone under the age of 18 would tell you Lebron was now better.

If you talk to people today, they will tell you Duncan is better, Durant is better, some may even argue Curry or a few other newer names.

It is unreal how people forget what was once this exact same discussion with another player. Whatever is current seems to be who is the GOAT or in the top 10 talks.

First, the Barnes/Kobe Gif is amazing. That is possibly greater than his 81 point game, lol. If you told me you were going to push the ball in my face I would still probably reflexively flinch. For Kobe to stand there like that was probably the Boss-est thing I have ever seen on the court. That said, let's calm down a little. Lebron is better than Kobe historically (at least in my opinion). Kobe's greatest skill was his scoring and Lebron will likely finish his career with more total points and a higher scoring average and a higher shooting percentage. Saying Kobe is not as good as Lebron is not forgetting how great Kobe was/is or hating on Kobe any more than saying MJ is greater than Lebron is not a knock or hating on Lebron. Lebron is a top 3 all timer and Kobe is a top 10 all timer.

[dasiegel]

First, the Barnes/Kobe Gif is amazing. That is possibly greater than his 81 point game, lol. If you told me you were going to push the ball in my face I would still probably reflexively flinch. For Kobe to stand there like that was probably the Boss-est thing I have ever seen on the court. That said, let's calm down a little. Lebron is better than Kobe historically (at least in my opinion). Kobe's greatest skill was his scoring and Lebron will likely finish his career with more total points and a higher scoring average and a higher shooting percentage. Saying Kobe is not as good as Lebron is not forgetting how great Kobe was/is or hating on Kobe any more than saying MJ is greater than Lebron is not a knock or hating on Lebron. Lebron is a top 3 all timer and Kobe is a top 10 all timer.

I really think this has become concrete in the way it has become concrete that MJ is the GOAT... and it shouldn't be.

If you talk to anyone who saw prime Kareem, prime Magic, prime Bird, prime Wilt, prime Russell this is not such an easy topic. For me, Jordan is the best I ever saw play.

And Kobe is the second! Like you said we are talking about 2 top ten talents so there will always be a debate. But most people today see Lebron as a clear cut #2 and ahead of Kobe. And I do not want the thread to turn into the same MJ/Lebron/GOAT stuff. But give me the guy who will take the big shot all the time. Give me the guy that will guard the other team's best player well. Give me the guy who regardless of career scoring #s will get you 40 with miminal effort. To me that is more Kobe.

Below is a video I randomly came across last night when I was basketball nerding. Not of Kobe but of MJ.

For some reason the score first guys like MJ and Kobe always seem to get passed over when it comes to assists and rebounds. Well in the 90s and early 2000s the Centers and PFs rebounded. Guards and many SFs did not. Just a different game. And if you think about a guy like MJ, several of his biggest moments were "the correct pass."

Watch the last 2 minutes of this clip (or the whole thing if you love ball and are bored) and tell me MJ couldn't get 10 ast easily if that was what his team needed. I feel Kobe also had these moments and many great scorers. Sometimes you can draw so much attention it's better to be a scorer who makes the timely correct pass.

Start at 11:00 in

0VJOQPCpAmg

[slum22]

I really think this has become concrete in the way it has become concrete that MJ is the GOAT... and it shouldn't be.

If you talk to anyone who saw prime Kareem, prime Magic, prime Bird, prime Wilt, prime Russell this is not such an easy topic. For me, Jordan is the best I ever saw play.

And Kobe is the second! Like you said we are talking about 2 top ten talents so there will always be a debate. But most people today see Lebron as a clear cut #2 and ahead of Kobe. And I do not want the thread to turn into the same MJ/Lebron/GOAT stuff. But give me the guy who will take the big shot all the time. Give me the guy that will guard the other team's best player well. Give me the guy who regardless of career scoring #s will get you 40 with miminal effort. To me that is more Kobe.

Below is a video I randomly came across last night when I was basketball nerding. Not of Kobe but of MJ.

For some reason the score first guys like MJ and Kobe always seem to get passed over when it comes to assists and rebounds. Well in the 90s and early 2000s the Centers and PFs rebounded. Guards and many SFs did not. Just a different game. And if you think about a guy like MJ, several of his biggest moments were "the correct pass."

Watch the last 2 minutes of this clip (or the whole thing if you love ball and are bored) and tell me MJ couldn't get 10 ast easily if that was what his team needed. I feel Kobe also had these moments and many great scorers. Sometimes you can draw so much attention it's better to be a scorer who makes the timely correct pass.

Start at 11:00 in

0VJOQPCpAmg

Yeah, I am not gonna argue with anyone who wants to say it is MJ > Kobe > Lebron or if someone wants to say Lebron > MJ > Kobe. I have it as MJ > Lebron > Kobe. Everyone is allowed to choose what is important to them in figuring their personal rankings. In regards to Kobe vs. Lebron, I just feel like Lebron could do more things at his size than Kobe could do at his size. Couldn't go wrong with any of the three though, as players or collectables :D

[COMCMax]

We all agree Blue Chips is a solid movie is what this poll has produced :D

Was the white 3 point shooter from the movie a up and coming colllege athlete irl? Don't recognize him.

[slum22]

We all agree Blue Chips is a solid movie is what this poll has produced :D

Was the white 3 point shooter from the movie a up and coming colllege athlete irl? Don't recognize him.

I think that was Matt Nover. He played for Indiana and I don't remember him being a particularly big NBA prospect even at the time. I think he was a pretty good college player.

[SK40]

Ah, I love these conversation. I hear you guys in the Kobe talk. It’s so tough to compare players across decades. So many of these conversations get stuck in the “what have you done for me lately”. I love the Barkley/Pierce comparison though. It’s a great point. For me you have to start by comparing players within their own “generation”. For example would you take Malone or Barkley? Kidd, AI or Nash? Then you expand from there.

I do out an emphasis on rings as historically the greats have won and through the history of the NBA the team with the best player won. Jordan ruined that by being so dominant (he is the GOAT) and then the “super teams have changed things that will take an entire generation to assess IMO.

For example, I believe Pierce and Barkley are both severely underrated these days. It’s tough to compare them thoug as Pierce was able to team up with two other HOFers which lead to a ring. If the Pierce/Walker combo simply added Rondo and Tony Allen they would have likely been to the ECF and Finals a couple of times but never won it. Barkley didn’t play in that type of NBA so the ring becomes a mute point in the comparison. Some could say Barkley should have lead his team to one, but Pierce should have 2-3 if that’s the case.

Drexler and The Dream not enough for Chuck?

[Kobe101]

Yup, you nailed it. I coulda used ya.


This isn’t going to be a popular post and let me start by saying look at my name Kobe is my favorite player.

But LeBron is already better and Durant is closing in. Technology, better nutrition, better workouts it’s bound to happen.

Kobe would bully Curry on D but it’s not the same position so it’s not really fair to curry who is absolutely great in his own right.

And here is where the post will get unpopular.... Lebron is better then Jordan. Athletes are better. Jordan would not have beaten then Spurs or Warriors.

Yeah he’s 6-0 in Finals. Cute stat. Did he play 6 years? No. The East was the dominant conference which he didn’t make it out of more times then Lebron has lost finals. And he had Pippen another arguably top 20 or better player ever. Crap Pip almost won MVP and took them to finals when Jordan took break and that says ALOT.

Cavs made it to how many finals with Lebron ? Now he’s gone and there is a better chance of them getting a top 5 pick then making playoffs.

[27426]

This isn’t going to be a popular post and let me start by saying look at my name Kobe is my favorite player.

But LeBron is already better and Durant is closing in. Technology, better nutrition, better workouts it’s bound to happen.

Kobe would bully Curry on D but it’s not the same position so it’s not really fair to curry who is absolutely great in his own right.

And here is where the post will get unpopular.... Lebron is better then Jordan. Athletes are better. Jordan would not have beaten then Spurs or Warriors.

Yeah he’s 6-0 in Finals. Cute stat. Did he play 6 years? No. The East was the dominant conference which he didn’t make it out of more times then Lebron has lost finals. And he had Pippen another arguably top 20 or better player ever. Crap Pip almost won MVP and took them to finals when Jordan took break and that says ALOT.

Cavs made it to how many finals with Lebron ? Now he’s gone and there is a better chance of them getting a top 5 pick then making playoffs.

Do you think Jordan would have lost to the 2011 Mavs in the Finals if he had LeBron's Heat team? Because I can't picture the Heat losing if Jordan had played instead of LeBron. I believe LeBron and the Heat were heavy favorites to win that year but they lost.

[6celtics33]

6-0 is a cute stat..... love it

Here is a few more

Lebron 18-31 in the Finals

What’s that you say? Nobody can beat the warriors

Lebron is 11-16 in the Finals against non Warrior teams

What’s that you say? 07 was a victory just getting there, take it off too

He’s still only 11-12 during his heat run

Can’t manage .500 with his super teams

Looks like he needs more than nutrition and better athletic ability

[6celtics33]

It’s 2 different conversations. You can have a ranking based on who you think is the most capable individual player of producing various stats and awards vs who is able to bring the most to the 5 on 5 outcome. Or a combination of the 2 and have 3 different orders.

Mental toughness and relentlessness is something that gets ignored far too much and is unfortunately not something the nerds can turn into a metric so people that don’t play don’t understand it.

[6celtics33]

Too many times Jordan’s first defense is 6-0 but don’t forget

5 MVP’s
6 Finals MVP’s
10 scoring titles
Def POY
9x 1st team all nba
9x 1st team defense
30.12 record
33.4 playoff record
41.0 finals record

Tons of playoff theatre

You can make an easy longevity case that Lebron has total value greater than Jordan due to playing high level longer but if you go that route, Kareem is your competition not MJ

[robert0629]

This isn’t going to be a popular post and let me start by saying look at my name Kobe is my favorite player.

But LeBron is already better and Durant is closing in. Technology, better nutrition, better workouts it’s bound to happen.

Kobe would bully Curry on D but it’s not the same position so it’s not really fair to curry who is absolutely great in his own right.

And here is where the post will get unpopular.... Lebron is better then Jordan. Athletes are better. Jordan would not have beaten then Spurs or Warriors.

Yeah he’s 6-0 in Finals. Cute stat. Did he play 6 years? No. The East was the dominant conference which he didn’t make it out of more times then Lebron has lost finals. And he had Pippen another arguably top 20 or better player ever. Crap Pip almost won MVP and took them to finals when Jordan took break and that says ALOT.

Cavs made it to how many finals with Lebron ? Now he’s gone and there is a better chance of them getting a top 5 pick then making playoffs.

It's not a stat, it's a result. That's what the greatest players do, they rise up in the biggest moments and lead their teams to victory. They don't just compile stats and then make excuses when they lose. That's what the 6-0 means. It's a reminder of what fans witnessed him do on the court.

As some posters on here have pointed out during these endless debates, there is no GOAT. There's just opinions. If some of you want LeBron to be your GOAT, then by all means. But think about who your choosing to be your GOAT. You're choosing a player who has been Defeated more often on the biggest stage than he's won. What does that say about you as fans? Would you rather celebrate a player who loses than one who wins?

Stats are important to get us to a certain point, but they don't tell the whole story. Plus they're incredibly boring. In the end watching the greatest players lead their teams to championships are what tips the scales for many in these GOAT debates. As fans we don't get rings or trophies, but what we do get are memories. Thinking back, Jordan has more iconic moments in the Finals than any other player I can think of. I'm not talking about highlights here. I'm talking about moments where he rose to a level that few have seen and nobody ever forgets. The layup where he switches hands against the Lakers in game 2 in 1991, the shrug after making six threes against the Blazers in game 1 in 1992, the shot against Barkley in game 4 in 1993 where Barkley falls to the ground and Jordan throws his arms up with fists clenched, falling into Pippen's arms after hitting a three in game 5 in 1997 against the Jazz (the flu game), and the shot against Russell in game 6 in 1997 against the jazz are all iconic moments that we as fans will never forget where we witnessed a player reach such incredible heights. This is why so many fans choose him as the GOAT over all others. As fans we wish to celebrate victory over defeat.

LeBron is a tremendous player, but in his 15 year career he has only one epic moment in the Finals. Once again, I'm not talking about highlights here. I'm not referring to a play where he throws the ball off the backboard and dunks in a game that his team lost. His only iconic Finals' moment is the block on Iguodala in game 7 against the Warriors in 2016. Instead what we have more often with LeBron in the Finals are moments of defeat. We have him cramping up in big moments, Jason Terry hitting the game winning shot in his face, and missing the three point shot against the Spurs only to have Ray Allen save the Heat on the next shot. The problem with LeBron is he freezes up in big moments. For example, in game 3 against the Warriors in 2017 with the Cavs down 2-0 Kyrie leads the Cavs to a lead late in the game. Not only does LeBron disappear in the 4th quarter which allows the Warriors to come back, he can't even get a shot off to tie the game in the final seconds. He has the ball behind the three point arc with the Cavs trailing by three, and he's stripped by Iguodala to end the game. For all the excuses about LeBron not being able to win it all because the competition is too great, if he's the GOAT why couldn't he at least win this one game? If he's the GOAT, why are we as fans left with moments of failure like this over moments where he has the opportunity to lead his team to victory?

[rats60]

Rings are overrated.

If you carried a team on your back to a title, like LeBron, that's obviously a huge feather in your cap. How many guys have actually done that though? Most championship teams have at least 2 HOFers on the roster. MJ/Pippen. Kobe/Shaq. Durant/Curry(/Thompson?). The list goes on. There's 5 guys on the court at all times. It's not tennis or golf.

When was that? I remember Kyrie hitting the game winning shot. I remember Ray Allen hitting the shot to save the season. I remember Jordan hitting the game winning shot against the Jazz. LeBron? No.

The only guys to carry a team were Bill Walton with the Blazers and Hakeem Olajuwon's 1st championship with the Rockets. The Sonics and Pistons won titles without a superstar. LeBron has had a ton of talent to help him, Wade, Bosh, Allen, Kyrie, Love. Now if he had beat the Spurs his first go round in Cleveland, that would be another story.

[cardsdownunder]

For me personally its the combination of leading your team to championships. You have to the the leader of the team that wins. That combo ranks #1 for me

Agree. And this is exactly why all of the chatter about KD joining the Warriors will be forgotten over time. What will be remembered are his rings and Finals MVPs as the leader of the Ws' championship teams. I'm not even a huge KD fan but the details are always lost and forgotten over time.

[drobfan8]

For me it starts with rings, the best players win, no excuses. It's as simple as that.

There's a reason Stockton and Malone never won, they weren't quite good enough to make the big plays to win the big one when they had opportunities.

Stats are cool and all, but man they don't tell the entire story.

[spurs50fan]

I think we (fans) put the weight on # of rings so yes it is overrated

Players, in turn, feel the pressure. The need to boost their brands. So they start maneuvering to get to the best situation to win right away. So yes rings are overrated when ranking because it really isn't that hard to position yourself to get one. Then you almost HAVE to put them into the HOF, because....well they have these rings.....

As far as what I see when deciding who is better? Leadership, Skill and the ability to maximize your teammates potential. I feel like most of the things we use to judge can easily be manipulated. Especially by a league driven more by profit than competitiveness

[rhigh2390]

Do you think Jordan would have lost to the 2011 Mavs in the Finals if he had LeBron's Heat team? Because I can't picture the Heat losing if Jordan had played instead of LeBron. I believe LeBron and the Heat were heavy favorites to win that year but they lost.

6-0 is a cute stat..... love it

Here is a few more

Lebron 18-31 in the Finals

What’s that you say? Nobody can beat the warriors

Lebron is 11-16 in the Finals against non Warrior teams

What’s that you say? 07 was a victory just getting there, take it off too

He’s still only 11-12 during his heat run

Can’t manage .500 with his super teams

Looks like he needs more than nutrition and better athletic ability

It’s 2 different conversations. You can have a ranking based on who you think is the most capable individual player of producing various stats and awards vs who is able to bring the most to the 5 on 5 outcome. Or a combination of the 2 and have 3 different orders.

Mental toughness and relentlessness is something that gets ignored far too much and is unfortunately not something the nerds can turn into a metric so people that don’t play don’t understand it.

Too many times Jordan’s first defense is 6-0 but don’t forget

5 MVP’s
6 Finals MVP’s
10 scoring titles
Def POY
9x 1st team all nba
9x 1st team defense
30.12 record
33.4 playoff record
41.0 finals record

Tons of playoff theatre

You can make an easy longevity case that Lebron has total value greater than Jordan due to playing high level longer but if you go that route, Kareem is your competition not MJ

It's not a stat, it's a result. That's what the greatest players do, they rise up in the biggest moments and lead their teams to victory. They don't just compile stats and then make excuses when they lose. That's what the 6-0 means. It's a reminder of what fans witnessed him do on the court.

As some posters on here have pointed out during these endless debates, there is no GOAT. There's just opinions. If some of you want LeBron to be your GOAT, then by all means. But think about who your choosing to be your GOAT. You're choosing a player who has been Defeated more often on the biggest stage than he's won. What does that say about you as fans? Would you rather celebrate a player who loses than one who wins?

Stats are important to get us to a certain point, but they don't tell the whole story. Plus they're incredibly boring. In the end watching the greatest players lead their teams to championships are what tips the scales for many in these GOAT debates. As fans we don't get rings or trophies, but what we do get are memories. Thinking back, Jordan has more iconic moments in the Finals than any other player I can think of. I'm not talking about highlights here. I'm talking about moments where he rose to a level that few have seen and nobody ever forgets. The layup where he switches hands against the Lakers in game 2 in 1991, the shrug after making six threes against the Blazers in game 1 in 1992, the shot against Barkley in game 4 in 1993 where Barkley falls to the ground and Jordan throws his arms up with fists clenched, falling into Pippen's arms after hitting a three in game 5 in 1997 against the Jazz (the flu game), and the shot against Russell in game 6 in 1997 against the jazz are all iconic moments that we as fans will never forget where we witnessed a player reach such incredible heights. This is why so many fans choose him as the GOAT over all others. As fans we wish to celebrate victory over defeat.

LeBron is a tremendous player, but in his 15 year career he has only one epic moment in the Finals. Once again, I'm not talking about highlights here. I'm not referring to a play where he throws the ball off the backboard and dunks in a game that his team lost. His only iconic Finals' moment is the block on Iguodala in game 7 against the Warriors in 2016. Instead what we have more often with LeBron in the Finals are moments of defeat. We have him cramping up in big moments, Jason Terry hitting the game winning shot in his face, and missing the three point shot against the Spurs only to have Ray Allen save the Heat on the next shot. The problem with LeBron is he freezes up in big moments. For example, in game 3 against the Warriors in 2017 with the Cavs down 2-0 Kyrie leads the Cavs to a lead late in the game. Not only does LeBron disappear in the 4th quarter which allows the Warriors to come back, he can't even get a shot off to tie the game in the final seconds. He has the ball behind the three point arc with the Cavs trailing by three, and he's stripped by Iguodala to end the game. For all the excuses about LeBron not being able to win it all because the competition is too great, if he's the GOAT why couldn't he at least win this one game? If he's the GOAT, why are we as fans left with moments of failure like this over moments where he has the opportunity to lead his team to victory?

When was that? I remember Kyrie hitting the game winning shot. I remember Ray Allen hitting the shot to save the season. I remember Jordan hitting the game winning shot against the Jazz. LeBron? No.

The only guys to carry a team were Bill Walton with the Blazers and Hakeem Olajuwon's 1st championship with the Rockets. The Sonics and Pistons won titles without a superstar. LeBron has had a ton of talent to help him, Wade, Bosh, Allen, Kyrie, Love. Now if he had beat the Spurs his first go round in Cleveland, that would be another story.

Mmm mmm mmm. Straight preaching for 6 straight posts. Love it!

I think it's definitely a combination of a lot of things when it comes to GOAT debates. It's all opinion, so people can pick who they want.

[dasiegel]

This isn’t going to be a popular post and let me start by saying look at my name Kobe is my favorite player.

But LeBron is already better and Durant is closing in. Technology, better nutrition, better workouts it’s bound to happen.

Kobe would bully Curry on D but it’s not the same position so it’s not really fair to curry who is absolutely great in his own right.

And here is where the post will get unpopular.... Lebron is better then Jordan. Athletes are better. Jordan would not have beaten then Spurs or Warriors.

Yeah he’s 6-0 in Finals. Cute stat. Did he play 6 years? No. The East was the dominant conference which he didn’t make it out of more times then Lebron has lost finals. And he had Pippen another arguably top 20 or better player ever. Crap Pip almost won MVP and took them to finals when Jordan took break and that says ALOT.

Cavs made it to how many finals with Lebron ? Now he’s gone and there is a better chance of them getting a top 5 pick then making playoffs.

Well you are right, this isn't gonna be a popular post, lol. To be 6-0 in the Finals has to mean a lot. It shows you were there 6 times and you made it happen each time. It also says a lot that you knocked off so many greats in your path. Ewing, Miller, Drexler, Magic, Isiah, Barkley, Malone, Stockton.

Admittedly, his team was just better than the other teams on the 2nd 3peat, but the first 3peat Pippen was just coming into his own and so was Grant. It wasn't a dominant unbeatable team.

Durant on paper may be more talented than almost any player ever to play offensively. He's basically a 6'10ish (they change his height each week) version of any all time great shooting guard. But with another top 10 player he couldn't win. He will have 3 titles after this year but so could most stars that joined GSW who was already making the trip to the Finals yearly before he got there.

Don't underestimate Kobe. And don't overestimate the nutrition and diet and regimens of training. You take any top 5 player from any generation and they could still play today. Even if their 40 yd dash would be .2 slower because of science, most of the game on that level has to do with practice and mental toughness. Bad footage and mediocre end of the bench talent does not take away from the cream of the crop. Centers from 30 years ago would dominate today as one example because they were skilled and legit 7 footers even though they weren't always as strong as far as weightlifting or performance training in newer functional exercise.

[Wiseysez]

But he’s not even the greatest MJ of all time...

[ballhawkdawk]

Y’all waste a lot of time talking in circles. The original question was interesting, but it’s hardly surprising it turned into what it did. Lots of Wikipedia and basketballreference copy paste.

[dasiegel]

Pretty close in the poll right now. Rings still #1 but stats a close #2 and in 3rd the ability to carry a team.

[Harper]

I love win shares. Stats shouldn’t mean much if you are losing games. Not perfect by any means, but that is probably my favorite stat for that reason. I hate stat padders on losing teams.

[pgisback]

I look at it like this, you put Lebron on the Bulls with Phil jackson and Scottie and he wins 8 straight finals (he’s a machine, doesn’t retire). I don’t think MJ wins any championships on lebrons teams. Maybe one with the Heat. So rings definitely do not tell the whole story.

[dasiegel]

I look at it like this, you put Lebron on the Bulls with Phil jackson and Scottie and he wins 8 straight finals (he’s a machine, doesn’t retire). I don’t think MJ wins any championships on lebrons teams. Maybe one with the Heat. So rings definitely do not tell the whole story.

I look at it the same way but the opposite. I don't think Lebron wins with the Bulls especially the first 3 years. But again, it's not a GOAT thread.

It's what are you looking at when you are measuring players in that discussion.

[drobfan8]

I look at it like this, you put Lebron on the Bulls with Phil jackson and Scottie and he wins 8 straight finals (he’s a machine, doesn’t retire). I don’t think MJ wins any championships on lebrons teams. Maybe one with the Heat. So rings definitely do not tell the whole story.

HA HA HA!!!!

Incredible.

Thanks for the laugh.

Bron and Pippen!!! Who the hell is winning you the game when you're down 1?

MJ doesn't win a chip with LeBron's teams!!! Classic. Yeah he'd do it real tough with D. Wade, Bosh and Ray Ray

And Love, Kyrie and TT.

Jesus, I'm dead. :rolleyes:



I honestly think it would be a struggle for LeBron vs the 90s Knicks and Pacers. I'm not sure he'd beat them EVERY time like MJ did. LeBron got beat by Dwight Howard, and he got taken to 7 multiple times by the Paul George Pacers so I'd give the 90s Knicks and Pacers a chance against him.

[rhigh2390]

HA HA HA!!!!

Incredible.

Thanks for the laugh.

Bron and Pippen!!! Who the hell is winning you the game when you're down 1?

MJ doesn't win a chip with LeBron's teams!!! Classic. Yeah he'd do it real tough with D. Wade, Bosh and Ray Ray

And Love, Kyrie and TT.

Jesus, I'm dead. :rolleyes:



I honestly think it would be a struggle for LeBron vs the 90s Knicks and Pacers. I'm not sure he'd beat them EVERY time like MJ did. LeBron got beat by Dwight Howard, and he got taken to 7 multiple times by the Paul George Pacers so I'd give the 90s Knicks and Pacers a chance against him.

Just let him sound dumb. I doubt he even believes the stuff he types on here. Lebron would have won the chip every year from 1985-2003 if that's when he played and if Jordan played from 2004-now, he wouldn't even make the playoffs any of the years. Lebron has just had the worst luck of any human being ever for being born when he was and having to play in this time period lol.

[cardmole]

When deciding who is better

Rings: Bill Russell
Stats: Wilt Chamberlain
Ability to be a franchise player: Dirk & Kobe
How much help they had: Bill Russell

[drobfan8]

When deciding who is better

Rings: Bill Russell
Stats: Wilt Chamberlain
Ability to be a franchise player: Dirk & Kobe
How much help they had: Bill Russell

Still no love for the great Tim Duncan. Rough

[pgisback]

HA HA HA!!!!

Incredible.

Thanks for the laugh.

Bron and Pippen!!! Who the hell is winning you the game when you're down 1?

MJ doesn't win a chip with LeBron's teams!!! Classic. Yeah he'd do it real tough with D. Wade, Bosh and Ray Ray

And Love, Kyrie and TT.

Jesus, I'm dead. :rolleyes:



I honestly think it would be a struggle for LeBron vs the 90s Knicks and Pacers. I'm not sure he'd beat them EVERY time like MJ did. LeBron got beat by Dwight Howard, and he got taken to 7 multiple times by the Paul George Pacers so I'd give the 90s Knicks and Pacers a chance against him.

Lol. Bulls won 50 games without Jordan. Lebrons teams become lottery teams. Lebron would easily dominate the 90s. With Scottie and Phil? Get outta here. 8-0 against weak 90s teams easily!! There weren’t any Warriors/Spurs dynasties in the 90s.

[drobfan8]

Just let him sound dumb. I doubt he even believes the stuff he types on here. Lebron would have won the chip every year from 1985-2003 if that's when he played and if Jordan played from 2004-now, he wouldn't even make the playoffs any of the years. Lebron has just had the worst luck of any human being ever for being born when he was and having to play in this time period lol.

Oh man it just gets crazier every time.

[the mesiah]

To me, it's a combination of tangibles and intangibles. Stats, rings, impact, eye test, etc.. Ranking players is needless but it IS fun.


I think I see it in this way as well ,I see overall stats , rings , court generalship on how they control the game or take over , and biggest one to me that no one ever says is the eye test.I know it’s more of a opinion but I’ve never been into analytics so give me the eye test all day since it’s what I believe in my years of watching and playing the game .

[drobfan8]

Lol. Bulls won 50 games without Jordan. Lebrons teams become lottery teams. Lebron would easily dominate the 90s. With Scottie and Phil? Get outta here. 8-0 against weak 90s teams easily!! There weren’t any Warriors/Spurs dynasties in the 90s.

LeBron's teams totally break up, they aint even close to the same thing once he leaves a trail of destruction behind.

That's like saying how did the Bulls do in 99? They became a lottery team man! Sure nobody was left, but it don't matter!

Scottie went and teamed up with stud teams after MJ and they didn't even get to a finals.

LeBron would be the same LeBron in the 90s. Gaudy numbers but needs someone to finish the game for him, Pippen and Phil can't do it.

LeBron didn't beat a Spurs or GS dynasty anyway.

Ray Ray got em vs an old AF Spurs squad (who wiped the floor with them the next season) Boris Diaw literally had his way with your boy LeBron.

And Dray Green and Bogut went out, so Bron beat Steph and Klay, but needed Kyrie's 40 pts and K. Love to do it. Weird that GS then wiped the floor with LeBron again the next season.


Just enjoy Bron going to what, his 6th team now? Lakers will get him all the help he needs so don't worry. It's sad to watch him leave 2 teams he won with, his fanatics can't say that he had to leave because he can't win there anymore...


Gimme Tim Duncan's 19 seasons over the 6 or 7 you get from LeBron anyday.

[robert0629]

I'm a big stats guy, but they do have their limitations. The problem with stats is you have to put them in context. It's nearly impossible to compare players across different eras. How do you account for pace of play and rule changes?

It's a waste of time to try and compare assist numbers from different eras. Because it's a judgement call by an official scorer, how can we be certain how accurate assist numbers are? NBA official scorers have gotten extremely generous giving out assists over the years. This probably started around the time Magic and Stockton were chasing records, but it seems to be getting worse. It's especially becoming an issue recently with all the triple-doubles players are getting. Some teams' official scorers have been more generous than others in recent years - the Lakers, Clippers, and Warriors for example. It's pretty obvious the NBA wants this. Given their playoff format, it's not easy for them to sell fans on regular season games. Players putting up ridiculous stats and triple-doubles is one way for them to do this. Sometimes when I'm bored I'll watch a game and go over the play-by-play on my computer at the same time. It's amazing how many assists players are getting for doing nothing. I can't tell you how many times I see players get an assist for throwing an outlet pass to a teammate who then dribbles past two defenders to score. Assists have become a useless stat for me, and the players who always have the ball in their hands benefit the most.

Rebounds are another issue. Players are not only becoming lazy on defense, many of them are cherry picking rebounds. Leaving their man too early or not helping their teammates on defense has become common place in the NBA these days. Westbrook is probably the worst offender, but there are others who are padding stats. The triple-double has become too important to these players.

I know shooting percentage is important, but it's another stat that can be misleading. Players will no longer take difficult shots for fear of hurting their percentages. Durant has all but admitted this. It may seem that not taking a difficult shot is a good thing, but this is not always the case. Sometimes teams need their best players to step up in big moments and hit tough shots. Say what you want about Kobe, buy that guy could've cared a less about his shooting percentages. No player in NBA history hit more tough shots than Kobe. I miss the days of players hitting tough contested shots.

[6celtics33]

Still no love for the great Tim Duncan. Rough

Duncan gets over looked, Russell had too much help, Jordan couldn’t win today

But the biggest loser of any top 10 great would be 8-0 if only...

James Harden is the 4th best Sg ever. West not top 10.

Been reading some gems here lately

Blowout be funny sometimes

[VIII]

Jordan won't be the GOAT if he doesn't have the rings, and more rings than all modern franchise players. Hobby wise, if Kobe had gotten that 6th ring, a lot of story line and price of cards would have been different today. So, if Lebron can get to 6 rings than he should definitely be in the discuss to be the GOAT. But if he fall short then let's not come up with a whole bunch of matrix trying to explain the unexplainable. GOAT should be measured by achievement not talent and physical attributes.

The end goal every year is to win rings.

[ballhawkdawk]

Jordan won't be the GOAT if he doesn't have the rings, and more rings than all modern franchise players. Hobby wise, if Kobe had gotten that 6th ring, a lot of story line and price of cards would have been different today. So, if Lebron can get to 6 rings than he should definitely be in the discuss to be the GOAT. But if he fall short then let's not come up with a whole bunch of matrix trying to explain the unexplainable. GOAT should be measured by achievement not talent and physical attributes.

The end goal every year is to win rings.

Robert Horry. That’s why putting too much weight into one criteria doesn’t work.

[VIII]

@ballhawkdawk - read the entire sentence - *franchise players.

[cardsdownunder]

When deciding who is better

Rings: Bill Russell
Stats: Wilt Chamberlain
Ability to be a franchise player: Dirk & Kobe
How much help they had: Bill Russell

agree mate!

[cardsdownunder]

Duncan gets over looked, Russell had too much help, Jordan couldn’t win today


very true

[ballhawkdawk]

@ballhawkdawk - read the entire sentence - *franchise players.

My point remains. Being a franchise player with 5 championships doesn’t automatically make you better than a franchise player with 1. See Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers. It’s an elementary argument when comparing individual players in team sports. I think it’s an important criteria when gauging greatness, but the discussion doesn’t begin and end with it.

[COMCMax]

These threads always have so many words.

The answer is. There isn't one.

[jcardstore]

What a shocker this is turning into a Lebron/MJ debate with the same airheads on each side.

Just came to say Kobe is overrated... that is all

[27426]

I look at it like this, you put Lebron on the Bulls with Phil jackson and Scottie and he wins 8 straight finals (he’s a machine, doesn’t retire). I don’t think MJ wins any championships on lebrons teams. Maybe one with the Heat. So rings definitely do not tell the whole story.

Like I said, LeBron and the Heat were the heavy favorites but LeBron had a meltdown and lost to the Mavs. I don’t recall Jordan having 4th quarter meltdowns multiple times like LeBron did in the Finals.

I love LeBron. I actually like him better than Jordan as a person and I’m rooting for him. But I just can’t picture Jordan losing to the 2011 Mavs with LeBron’s Heat. That’s just my opinion though. Of course, you’re entitled to yours.

[mc1]

My point remains. Being a franchise player with 5 championships doesn’t automatically make you better than a franchise player with 1. See Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers. It’s an elementary argument when comparing individual players in team sports. I think it’s an important criteria when gauging greatness, but the discussion doesn’t begin and end with it.

What does football have to do with anything we are discussing? 8-9 players for basketball contribute to a team while over 30 do so in football. Basketball players are expected to contribute on offense and defense, in football Brady and Rodgers have no control of how their D plays.

[pgisback]

LeBron's teams totally break up, they aint even close to the same thing once he leaves a trail of destruction behind.

That's like saying how did the Bulls do in 99? They became a lottery team man! Sure nobody was left, but it don't matter!

Scottie went and teamed up with stud teams after MJ and they didn't even get to a finals.

LeBron would be the same LeBron in the 90s. Gaudy numbers but needs someone to finish the game for him, Pippen and Phil can't do it.

LeBron didn't beat a Spurs or GS dynasty anyway.

Ray Ray got em vs an old AF Spurs squad (who wiped the floor with them the next season) Boris Diaw literally had his way with your boy LeBron.

And Dray Green and Bogut went out, so Bron beat Steph and Klay, but needed Kyrie's 40 pts and K. Love to do it. Weird that GS then wiped the floor with LeBron again the next season.


Just enjoy Bron going to what, his 6th team now? Lakers will get him all the help he needs so don't worry. It's sad to watch him leave 2 teams he won with, his fanatics can't say that he had to leave because he can't win there anymore...


Gimme Tim Duncan's 19 seasons over the 6 or 7 you get from LeBron anyday.

Lol, past 4 years Lebron has more points, assists, rebounds, steals, and blocks, while shooting better from the field in the Finals than MJ did in his best 4 years. Put Lebron on the 90s bulls team with the weak competition. It wouldn't even be fair. 8-0 easily. I can't see MJ leading Lebron's teams to the Finals like Lebron has. Having a mastermind like Phil and a system goes a long way. Just being that much better than everyone and patching teams together to get to the Finals like Lebron has, is one of the more impressive feats I've seen.

[ballhawkdawk]

What does football have to do with anything we are discussing? 8-9 players for basketball contribute to a team while over 30 do so in football. Basketball players are expected to contribute on offense and defense, in football Brady and Rodgers have no control of how their D plays.

You just made my point. One individual can’t control the whole game... hence team sport. 8 players, 30 players, whatever.... individual greatness isn’t solely measured by team achievement.

[rhigh2390]

You just made my point. One individual can’t control the whole game... hence team sport. 8 players, 30 players, whatever.... individual greatness isn’t solely measured by team achievement.

You don't think basketball is a sport where an individual player has more influence on the outcome than any other sport?

[Orangejello727]

My point remains. Being a franchise player with 5 championships doesn’t automatically make you better than a franchise player with 1. See Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers. It’s an elementary argument when comparing individual players in team sports. I think it’s an important criteria when gauging greatness, but the discussion doesn’t begin and end with it.

It does. No matter how you spin stats and storylines, the leader of a team or franchise player that leads their team to 6 championships vs 1 championship is logically better.

Its better if you look at it from a 50,000 feet level. Would you rather be a leader with 6 rings or 1 ring? Pick one. If you choose being a leader / franchise player with only 1 ring over 6, please explain why?

[Orangejello727]

Lol, past 4 years Lebron has more points, assists, rebounds, steals, and blocks, while shooting better from the field in the Finals than MJ did in his best 4 years. Put Lebron on the 90s bulls team with the weak competition. It wouldn't even be fair. 8-0 easily. I can't see MJ leading Lebron's teams to the Finals like Lebron has. Having a mastermind like Phil and a system goes a long way. Just being that much better than everyone and patching teams together to get to the Finals like Lebron has, is one of the more impressive feats I've seen.

All that is meaningless unless it leads to a championship. What you are trying to say is making the finals and losing 8 times is better than making it 1 time and winning the championship?? Coming in 2nd, 3rd and 4th mulitple times ever equates to coming in 1st. I dont understand this logic that somehow coming close a bunch of times is better than winning. I guess that would make Jim Kelly one of the GOAT QBs right? I mean he never won, but damn did he come close a bunch of time! Even better, if you put Jim Kelly on another team, he could have been 10-0 for super bowls.


Ill give you one thing. Your chase for hypotheticals scenarios could win Lebron more rings. I mean I guess he could be a championship in a "What if" world.

[drobfan8]

I hate it when people crossover sports. We're talking basketball here.

It's funny, some like to devalue rings as an argument (LeBron fans generally) yet I'm yet to see anyone try and make the argument that an NBA player with 1 or 0 rings is in the top 10 Greats of the game.

Sorry, but the best players usually win at the highest level.

[drobfan8]

Lol, past 4 years Lebron has more points, assists, rebounds, steals, and blocks, while shooting better from the field in the Finals than MJ did in his best 4 years. Put Lebron on the 90s bulls team with the weak competition. It wouldn't even be fair. 8-0 easily. I can't see MJ leading Lebron's teams to the Finals like Lebron has. Having a mastermind like Phil and a system goes a long way. Just being that much better than everyone and patching teams together to get to the Finals like Lebron has, is one of the more impressive feats I've seen.

Wow, incredible stuff, I never realized that.

Did he win all 4 times? Because he's so dominant? Or maybe he's making up for that time vs the Mavs he averaged 2 points in the 4th for the SERIES!

Doesn't LeBron have the most single digit playoff scoring games out of the best players of all time?

Hopefully he'll play another 7 years and LA give him 6 All Stars so we can see him congratulate himself like last time.

[pgisback]

All that is meaningless unless it leads to a championship. What you are trying to say is making the finals and losing 8 times is better than making it 1 time and winning the championship?? Coming in 2nd, 3rd and 4th mulitple times ever equates to coming in 1st. I dont understand this logic that somehow coming close a bunch of times is better than winning. I guess that would make Jim Kelly one of the GOAT QBs right? I mean he never won, but damn did he come close a bunch of time! Even better, if you put Jim Kelly on another team, he could have been 10-0 for super bowls.


Ill give you one thing. Your chase for hypotheticals scenarios could win Lebron more rings. I mean I guess he could be a championship in a "What if" world.

Well when you compare people in different eras you have to use some hypotheticals. I just find it much more logical that players that dominate todays game would dominate even more 25 years ago than the other way around, haha. Only people with weird emotional attachments to the 90s think that basketball players have gotten weaker, slower, and less talented over the span of 25 years. Adding Lebron james to a 50 win team in the 90s. Haha. Not sure what basketball you guys have been watching in your lives. I watched 90s basketball. Lebron would be by far the most unstoppable player on the court.

[Orangejello727]

Well when you compare people in different eras you have to use some hypotheticals. I just find it much more logical that players that dominate todays game would dominate even more 25 years ago than the other way around, haha. Only people with weird emotional attachments to the 90s think that basketball players have gotten weaker, slower, and less talented over the span of 25 years. Adding Lebron james to a 50 win team in the 90s. Haha. Not sure what basketball you guys have been watching in your lives. I watched 90s basketball. Lebron would be by far the most unstoppable player on the court.

I dont understand how you can compare players from different eras and confirm that its fact as if they did play one another? How do you do that without actual facts and use it as factual data?

Like I said, you can be the champion of "Hypothetical" championships and teams. The king of "What if" wins. But if you want to talk about what really happend and actual facts, then im sorry, but What ifs do not count as real feats.

MJ has 6 rings because he won 6 rings. If you want Lebron to have 3 real rings and 4 imaginary fake "what if" rings that me might have won if played in the 90s?? , be my guest.

[drobfan8]

And in 25 years time the players will be so advanced that they would make LeBron look like stacey Augmon amirite?

Because, that's how fast we are evolving.

I can't wait for this new type of freak athlete.....

[pgisback]

And in 25 years time the players will be so advanced that they would make LeBron look like stacey Augmon amirite?

Because, that's how fast we are evolving.

I can't wait for this new type of freak athlete.....

Absolutely, I have zero doubt in 25 years there will be a player better than Lebron James dominating a better talent pool of players.

[jcardstore]

LEBRON LEBRON!!!!!
JORDAN JORDAN!!!!
RINGS STATS WARRIORS BULLS BLAH BLAH BLAH

Am I doing this right guys?

[6celtics33]

And in 25 years time the players will be so advanced that they would make LeBron look like stacey Augmon amirite?

Because, that's how fast we are evolving.

I can't wait for this new type of freak athlete.....

I can't figure out why he doesn't get that anybody playing long ago or even 20 years ago would have the same advantages as everyone else if playing today. I really don't think that's that complicated of a thing.

Furthermore, Jordan played against Duncan/Robinson Spurs and beat them in the regular season. These weak 90s teams beat them in the playoffs, the same Spurs you and I both love and the same Spurs that spanked Lebron 2/3 times and he proclaims as the all time dynasty. I'm sure in his mind David Robinson and Sean Elliot are a worse supporting cast than Parker and Ginobili. But whatever

Now is so much better..

[6celtics33]

And it's not some weird emotional attachment when you're talking about stuff that actually happened. I can play that game.

Son, if Jordan was able to pick his big 3 and hop teams multiple times son he would've never wanted to retire ever and he'd be at 45,000 points and 10 titles.

See, weird emotional attachments make you say crazy things that didn't happen just based on how you feel like a guy with an 18-31 finals record would suddenly be 8-0 if things were just a little different. Somebody that has showed over and over he doesn't know how to close or win against strong teams.

Warriors blah blah is right. Lebron has lost to 3 different franchises in the Finals. If he had beat everyone else or even sniffed .500 maybe he'd get a pass against the warriors but it's irrelevant. Lots of teams beat Lebron so it makes perfect sense why Lebron lovers would fall in love with the idea that suddenly a great player can't influence the title winning team even though the history of the game says otherwise up until Lebron.

[dbird3312]

What a shocker this is turning into a Lebron/MJ debate with the same airheads on each side.

Just came to say Kobe is overrated... that is all



What he said.

[PKIPP]

I hate it when people crossover sports. We're talking basketball here.

It's funny, some like to devalue rings as an argument (LeBron fans generally) yet I'm yet to see anyone try and make the argument that an NBA player with 1 or 0 rings is in the top 10 Greats of the game.

Sorry, but the best players usually win at the highest level.

I've seen plenty of ppl who think jerry west is a top ten all time player, as well as Karl Malone. Sorry bud, you lose

[hofcollector2]

Lebron dominated the east during his time and in his prime
Michael Jordan dominated the entire league during his time and in his prime


It's not close

[Orangejello727]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCSxTB7W0AU_IQu.jpg

[slum22]

Man, this thread has really gotten derailed. Can we have a Lebron/MJ cease fire? Or at least carry on the Lebron/MJ argument in one of the hundreds of threads on here about that subject? Or maybe it's too late for the OP and his thread here.

[robert0629]

Lol, past 4 years Lebron has more points, assists, rebounds, steals, and blocks, while shooting better from the field in the Finals than MJ did in his best 4 years. Put Lebron on the 90s bulls team with the weak competition. It wouldn't even be fair. 8-0 easily. I can't see MJ leading Lebron's teams to the Finals like Lebron has. Having a mastermind like Phil and a system goes a long way. Just being that much better than everyone and patching teams together to get to the Finals like Lebron has, is one of the more impressive feats I've seen.

So winning doesn't matter as long as he has the better stats? The problem is you can't put any of those stats in context. The other problem is LeBron is one of the NBA's best stat padders. Even his own teammates have called him out on it. He always has to have the ball in his hands on every possession. So of course he's going to dominate the stat sheet. With a few seconds left on the shot clock he's either going to shoot the ball or pass it to someone who then has to shoot to avoid a shot clock violation. It's difficult for other players to get assists when LeBron won't give them enough time to pass to someone else.

You know there's this thing where a player can move without the ball and be really valuable to his team. When Phil Jackson took over as coach of the Bulls he convinced Jordan to play off the ball. A Player of Jordan's ability who does this can be pretty much impossible to stop. Defenses always have to account for them and you never know where he's going. Hypothetically, a player moving without the ball can be as important as the ball handler or the shooter even if he never touches the ball on a possession, because he's drawing the defense toward him and allowing his teammates easy points. So what stats do these players get? Next time you watch the Warriors play, watch Curry closely. This guy's unbelievable. You could argue that he's more valuable playing off the ball than he is as a facilitator. If a defense lets him roam free, forget about it - easy points. If they try to prevent him from getting the ball it leads to easy points for his teammates.

I'm not saying LeBron can't play off the ball, but I've never seen him do it effectively. In other words, he's never really tried. When he played with Wade and Kyrie, it was each player takes a turn playing iso ball while the other stands and watches. The problem is LeBron is so convinced that his system works that he refuses to play any other way. He's had a lot of success against the bad teams, but when he goes up against teams that play good team basketball he hasn't gotten positive results.

As for the rebounds, I don't see him getting too many offensive rebounds. What I see with LeBron is him standing in the center of the court on defense and cheating toward the basket to get easy rebounds. That's why his defensive metrics have been horrendous the last few years. He's supposed to be helping his teammates, only the majority of time he's not doing that because he's cherry picking for rebounds. I've even seen him direct his teammates to defend a player he normally defends so that he can play closer to the basket. He usually does this when he's close to a triple-double or something. Sorry, but stats aren't everything and his style of play hasn't been good enough to beat the best teams throughout his career.

[drobfan8]

I've seen plenty of ppl who think jerry west is a top ten all time player, as well as Karl Malone. Sorry bud, you lose

I see reading is a struggle for you.

"I'm yet to see...."

Jerry West top 10? I could hear an argument. All those times in the finals and only got 1 right? Yikes

Karl Malone? Now that's funny.

It's not common.

[Wiseysez]

It’s almost as if people don’t realize that this is a “team” sport. Coaching matters to a “team”. Not necessarily to the superstar, but to the “team”. Coaching matters a lot.

[drobfan8]

It’s almost as if people don’t realize that this is a “team” sport. Coaching matters to a “team”. Not necessarily to the superstar, but to the “team”. Coaching matters a lot.

Yep, see E. Spoelstra, T. Lue and D. Rivers. Those dudes were the main reason those teams won. :coffee:

[Wiseysez]

No. But perhaps a Jackson or a Poppovich could have led to more than 3 titles. Perhaps. There’s no way of knowing one way or the other. But it’s all part of the equation.

[6celtics33]

No. But perhaps a Jackson or a Poppovich could have led to more than 3 titles. Perhaps. There’s no way of knowing one way or the other. But it’s all part of the equation.

You’re right but that would involve giving up some control, allowing yourself to be coached, being a teammate in a system, allowing your teammates to be part of the system and helping them grow so they can be counted on late in games.

Not everyone is willing to do that.

You mention Pop and Phil. Neither of those coaches had any success before MJ and Duncan. Duncan was the ultimate guy to build around and Jordan ultimately gave in after some kicking and screaming because he wanted to win more than anything else. But he wasn’t happy about it.

Lebron is the system so it’s no surprise that when he leaves things collapse. The others haven’t done anything but stand in a corner for however long they’ve been there and get all the blame put on them for team failures.

[drobfan8]

No. But perhaps a Jackson or a Poppovich could have led to more than 3 titles. Perhaps. There’s no way of knowing one way or the other. But it’s all part of the equation.

Jackson didn't coach anyone to anything. He had by far the best talent year in and out.

Pop runs a system, LeBron isn't a system player.

These just seem like more excuses as always.

LeBron has walked away from teams that have won. He makes his own bed.

[6celtics33]

They keep saying team game team game, that’s the crazy thing about a team game, the team has to be built and be involved and not threw together like its a pickup game on a Saturday afternoon.