Are Championships Overrated When Ranking?

[dasiegel]

I love listening to sports talk radio and all the sports debate shows but man some of the arguments on who is better than who drive me nuts. The argument always comes down to who has more championships.

To me that is a method of dividing the best of the best from each other but it doesn't tell the whole picture. It doesn't even tell most of the picture.

I think that we all agree that the end goal is to win and winning means something. On one hand. that is why I feel a guy like Chauncey Billups is a HOF'er whether he is in or not. Because to me, he was the best player and the leader on a team that was dominant for about 5 years and beat a Shaq/Kobe Laker team nobody ever expected them to beat.

But there is a long list of guys who never won a title: Barkley, Stockton, Malone, Ewing, Miller, Baylor, etc. There is another list of guys who won a title later in their careers as role players or second/third tier stars like Robinson, Mourning, Payton, Kidd, etc.

Deciding who is better Jason Kidd or Allen Iverson for example I'm sure can go either way depending on who you ask. But Kidd's title as a solid semi-star on Dallas should not be the tie breaker. He was a nice part of that team but that was Dirk's team. He was a steady PG with great leadership but he was about the 7th offensive option on that team. I think you would have to ask who could do more statistically, who could get a team further with less, who could take over a game more, etc.

Carrying a team for your whole career and never winning should still mean a lot. If you get to the Finals but can't get over the hump as a team it doesn't usually mean the player was not as good as another player, but the team wasn't as good as the other team. Lebron is better than everyone on the Warriors but the Cavs usually weren't.

As a fan and as a "who's better" ranker, I would take a guy like Barkley over a guy like Pierce (even though I like them both a lot) and not just take the guy with the ring. There are way too many other factors when saying who was a better player.

[Orangejello727]

For me personally its the combination of leading your team to championships. You have to the the leader of the team that wins. That combo ranks #1 for me

[Duncancollector]

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

For me personally its the combination of leading your team to championships. You have to the the leader of the team that wins. That combo ranks #1 for me

Agree 100%

[brettmik59]

Rings are overrated.

If you carried a team on your back to a title, like LeBron, that's obviously a huge feather in your cap. How many guys have actually done that though? Most championship teams have at least 2 HOFers on the roster. MJ/Pippen. Kobe/Shaq. Durant/Curry(/Thompson?). The list goes on. There's 5 guys on the court at all times. It's not tennis or golf.

[COMCMax]

I hate ranking.

Had argument with a coworker that doesn't know anything more about the NBA than what he sees in his social media feed. Telling me Kobe isn't top 10 player without Shaq.

Whole conversation started because he watched Blue Chips on Netflix lol

[pennywise]

Originally Posted by COMCMax

Whole conversation started because he watched Blue Chips on Netflix lol

Love that movie. Most of the acting is abysmal but dammit I love that movie.


To me, it's a combination of tangibles and intangibles. Stats, rings, impact, eye test, etc.. Ranking players is needless but it IS fun.

[COMCMax]

Originally Posted by pennywise

Love that movie. Most of the acting is abysmal but dammit I love that movie.


To me, it's a combination of tangibles and intangibles. Stats, rings, impact, eye test, etc.. Ranking players is needless but it IS fun.

Yea, great flick. I don't mind discussing rankings with people...in our hobby. Lol

Coworker turned into Pat Riley on me from his social media, fantasy, and sports center top 10 plays background knowledge in sports.

[dasiegel]

Originally Posted by COMCMax

I hate ranking.

Had argument with a coworker that doesn't know anything more about the NBA than what he sees in his social media feed. Telling me Kobe isn't top 10 player without Shaq.

Whole conversation started because he watched Blue Chips on Netflix lol

LOL.

Kobe is the player that drives me maybe the most nuts during these conversations. When I hear people dismissing him today it reminds me of how people older than me must've felt when I was arguing that "my" players were better than theirs.

I remember clear as day that between about 06-10 there were the Kobe GOAT conversations. Was he better than MJ? He had a better outside shot, he scored 81 pts, he had a stretch where he scored 50 pts in 4 straight games. Earlier in his career he had 9 straight 40 point games. He was a #1a and a #1 during 5 championships. He played both sides of the ball, had a killer instinct etc.

Fast forward to 2011ish, when Lebron started going to the Finals and was part of the new big 3, everyone forgot about Kobe. By 2015-16 after Kobe had a few injury ridden seasons anyone under the age of 18 would tell you Lebron was now better.

If you talk to people today, they will tell you Duncan is better, Durant is better, some may even argue Curry or a few other newer names.

It is unreal how people forget what was once this exact same discussion with another player. Whatever is current seems to be who is the GOAT or in the top 10 talks.

[VIII]

@dasiegel is right on point. Can't explain it any better.

[COMCMax]

Originally Posted by dasiegel

LOL.

Kobe is the player that drives me maybe the most nuts during these conversations. When I hear people dismissing him today it reminds me of how people older than me must've felt when I was arguing that "my" players were better than theirs.

I remember clear as day that between about 06-10 there were the Kobe GOAT conversations. Was he better than MJ? He had a better outside shot, he scored 81 pts, he had a stretch where he scored 50 pts in 4 straight games. Earlier in his career he had 9 straight 40 point games. He was a #1a and a #1 during 5 championships. He played both sides of the ball, had a killer instinct etc.

Fast forward to 2011ish, when Lebron started going to the Finals and was part of the new big 3, everyone forgot about Kobe. By 2015-16 after Kobe had a few injury ridden seasons anyone under the age of 18 would tell you Lebron was now better.

If you talk to people today, they will tell you Duncan is better, Durant is better, some may even argue Curry or a few other newer names.

It is unreal how people forget what was once this exact same discussion with another player. Whatever is current seems to be who is the GOAT or in the top 10 talks.

Yup, you nailed it. I coulda used ya.

[dasiegel]

Originally Posted by COMCMax

Yup, you nailed it. I coulda used ya.

hahaha next time shoot me a text and i'll argue with your friends lol

[SHowley2003]

Ah, I love these conversation. I hear you guys in the Kobe talk. It’s so tough to compare players across decades. So many of these conversations get stuck in the “what have you done for me lately”. I love the Barkley/Pierce comparison though. It’s a great point. For me you have to start by comparing players within their own “generation”. For example would you take Malone or Barkley? Kidd, AI or Nash? Then you expand from there.

I do out an emphasis on rings as historically the greats have won and through the history of the NBA the team with the best player won. Jordan ruined that by being so dominant (he is the GOAT) and then the “super teams have changed things that will take an entire generation to assess IMO.

For example, I believe Pierce and Barkley are both severely underrated these days. It’s tough to compare them thoug as Pierce was able to team up with two other HOFers which lead to a ring. If the Pierce/Walker combo simply added Rondo and Tony Allen they would have likely been to the ECF and Finals a couple of times but never won it. Barkley didn’t play in that type of NBA so the ring becomes a mute point in the comparison. Some could say Barkley should have lead his team to one, but Pierce should have 2-3 if that’s the case.

[ballhawkdawk]

Greatness is measured by achievement. “Who’s better?” requires an objective ability to assess actual performance aka the eye test. Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback of the last 20 years, maybe ever. Aaron Rodgers is the best quarterback of the last 20 years, maybe ever. Sorry to bring football to the basketball section, but it’s the easiest example.

[COMCMax]

Rumor is Thanos was at that game and flinched

[6celtics33]

I think it’s a good way to separate the top 10-15 players of all time but after that no. For example, all the 90s greats didn’t win titles largely due to Jordan. Should they be penalized for that? No, they lost to people better than them.

Chris Paul currently I look at the same way.

He’s played the West his whole career. I don’t judge him as harshly for losing when he lost to Kobe, Duncan, the Warriors every year. They were better.

To the poster above, when did Lebron ever drag his team to a title?

Kyrie and Love might not sound as big a name as Pippen but they were putting up 40 point games and 30-10 games. That’s help.

Wade and Bosh too

[6celtics33]

It’s not a coincidence that all the very best players have succeeded at the highest levels and led their team to a title

[salthill]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

It’s not a coincidence that all the very best players have succeeded at the highest levels and led their team to a title

That’s a circular argument. You’ve defined “best” as winning championships.
(I’m prickly because I’m a Dolphins/Marino fan. )

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by salthill

That’s a circular argument. You’ve defined “best” as winning championships.
(I’m prickly because I’m a Dolphins/Marino fan. )

Football players only play half the game. Quarterbacks have an impact but not the same as an elite basketball player playing 42/48 minutes who has the ball in their hands quite a bit and plays defense.

[salthill]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

Football players only play half the game. Quarterbacks have an impact but not the same as an elite basketball player playing 42/48 minutes who has the ball in their hands quite a bit and plays defense.

Very true. A basketball player has much more influence over the final outcome than any one football player, both in terms of their direct performance and their influence on the other players on the court.

[indyguy]

Originally Posted by COMCMax

I hate ranking.

Had argument with a coworker that doesn't know anything more about the NBA than what he sees in his social media feed. Telling me Kobe isn't top 10 player without Shaq.

Whole conversation started because he watched Blue Chips on Netflix lol

Most conversations should start because of watching Blue Chips on Netflix. I'm not sure I want to live in a world that doesn't have conversations start after watching Blue Chips on Netflix!

[dasiegel]

Originally Posted by COMCMax

Rumor is Thanos was at that game and flinched

Still the greatest reaction of all time. Not even an eye blink.

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

I think it’s a good way to separate the top 10-15 players of all time but after that no. For example, all the 90s greats didn’t win titles largely due to Jordan. Should they be penalized for that? No, they lost to people better than them.

Chris Paul currently I look at the same way.

He’s played the West his whole career. I don’t judge him as harshly for losing when he lost to Kobe, Duncan, the Warriors every year. They were better.

To the poster above, when did Lebron ever drag his team to a title?

Kyrie and Love might not sound as big a name as Pippen but they were putting up 40 point games and 30-10 games. That’s help.

Wade and Bosh too

Lebron did it in 06-07 (edit: to the final on his own)

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

It’s not a coincidence that all the very best players have succeeded at the highest levels and led their team to a title

The top 10 type guys sure but even Dream team level players like Drexler never won until they teamed up with Hakeem and the NBA champ Rockets. KG, Allen, Pierce, Durant, Bosh, Love, and many modern day guys are unreal but needed help to win. David Robinson was never the best player on a title team.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by brettmik59

Rings are overrated.

If you carried a team on your back to a title, like LeBron, that's obviously a huge feather in your cap. How many guys have actually done that though? Most championship teams have at least 2 HOFers on the roster. MJ/Pippen. Kobe/Shaq. Durant/Curry(/Thompson?). The list goes on. There's 5 guys on the court at all times. It's not tennis or golf.

When has Lebron ever won the title without any help? You counting 2007 and 2018? They got swept when it counted.

[slum22]

I think for the most part championships have become very overrated in the modern discussion of player rankings. I think when you are discussing a player's historical ranking the resume of the player begins with his statistical accomplishments. You have to have achieved a certain threshold of statistical success, whether it be in your peak or over the course of your career, to be put into any tier of all time ranking: whether it be top 3, top 10, top 25, top 50, etc. Once you fall into a tier then using factors like team success (championships would be included here) as well as awards like MVP's, All-NBA teams, All Star appearances, DPOY's etc. can be used to rank players within certain tiers. I think MVP's and All NBA teams help to parse out players who were truly dominant during their generations vs. guys who could be more statistical compilers. For instance, Mark Jackson currently sits at 4th all time in Assists ahead of Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomas but no one would argue that he was as impactful as either and it bears out based on their awards/honors pedigree. Jackson was very good for a long time. Magic and Isiah were great for a shorter period of time but more impactful overall.

[slum22]

Originally Posted by brettmik59

Rings are overrated.

If you carried a team on your back to a title, like LeBron, that's obviously a huge feather in your cap. How many guys have actually done that though? Most championship teams have at least 2 HOFers on the roster. MJ/Pippen. Kobe/Shaq. Durant/Curry(/Thompson?). The list goes on. There's 5 guys on the court at all times. It's not tennis or golf.

Lebron never carried a team to a title. He played with three HOFers in Miami (Ray Allen past his prime but Wade and Bosh in their primes) and depending on how their careers unfold from here two more in Cleveland. At the very least Kyrie and Love were All-Stars during the Cleveland run. Kyrie averaged 30 points per game during their comeback from the 3-1 deficit and made the series winning shot. And not on a Paxson, Kerr kickout, the play was run for Kyrie to take and make the shot. And I am not hating on Lebron here, I have him ranked top 2 or 3 all time currently and he still has time to move up.

Originally Posted by dasiegel

LOL.

Kobe is the player that drives me maybe the most nuts during these conversations. When I hear people dismissing him today it reminds me of how people older than me must've felt when I was arguing that "my" players were better than theirs.

I remember clear as day that between about 06-10 there were the Kobe GOAT conversations. Was he better than MJ? He had a better outside shot, he scored 81 pts, he had a stretch where he scored 50 pts in 4 straight games. Earlier in his career he had 9 straight 40 point games. He was a #1a and a #1 during 5 championships. He played both sides of the ball, had a killer instinct etc.

Fast forward to 2011ish, when Lebron started going to the Finals and was part of the new big 3, everyone forgot about Kobe. By 2015-16 after Kobe had a few injury ridden seasons anyone under the age of 18 would tell you Lebron was now better.

If you talk to people today, they will tell you Duncan is better, Durant is better, some may even argue Curry or a few other newer names.

It is unreal how people forget what was once this exact same discussion with another player. Whatever is current seems to be who is the GOAT or in the top 10 talks.

First, the Barnes/Kobe Gif is amazing. That is possibly greater than his 81 point game, lol. If you told me you were going to push the ball in my face I would still probably reflexively flinch. For Kobe to stand there like that was probably the Boss-est thing I have ever seen on the court. That said, let's calm down a little. Lebron is better than Kobe historically (at least in my opinion). Kobe's greatest skill was his scoring and Lebron will likely finish his career with more total points and a higher scoring average and a higher shooting percentage. Saying Kobe is not as good as Lebron is not forgetting how great Kobe was/is or hating on Kobe any more than saying MJ is greater than Lebron is not a knock or hating on Lebron. Lebron is a top 3 all timer and Kobe is a top 10 all timer.

[dasiegel]

Originally Posted by slum22

First, the Barnes/Kobe Gif is amazing. That is possibly greater than his 81 point game, lol. If you told me you were going to push the ball in my face I would still probably reflexively flinch. For Kobe to stand there like that was probably the Boss-est thing I have ever seen on the court. That said, let's calm down a little. Lebron is better than Kobe historically (at least in my opinion). Kobe's greatest skill was his scoring and Lebron will likely finish his career with more total points and a higher scoring average and a higher shooting percentage. Saying Kobe is not as good as Lebron is not forgetting how great Kobe was/is or hating on Kobe any more than saying MJ is greater than Lebron is not a knock or hating on Lebron. Lebron is a top 3 all timer and Kobe is a top 10 all timer.

I really think this has become concrete in the way it has become concrete that MJ is the GOAT... and it shouldn't be.

If you talk to anyone who saw prime Kareem, prime Magic, prime Bird, prime Wilt, prime Russell this is not such an easy topic. For me, Jordan is the best I ever saw play.

And Kobe is the second! Like you said we are talking about 2 top ten talents so there will always be a debate. But most people today see Lebron as a clear cut #2 and ahead of Kobe. And I do not want the thread to turn into the same MJ/Lebron/GOAT stuff. But give me the guy who will take the big shot all the time. Give me the guy that will guard the other team's best player well. Give me the guy who regardless of career scoring #s will get you 40 with miminal effort. To me that is more Kobe.

Below is a video I randomly came across last night when I was basketball nerding. Not of Kobe but of MJ.

For some reason the score first guys like MJ and Kobe always seem to get passed over when it comes to assists and rebounds. Well in the 90s and early 2000s the Centers and PFs rebounded. Guards and many SFs did not. Just a different game. And if you think about a guy like MJ, several of his biggest moments were "the correct pass."

Watch the last 2 minutes of this clip (or the whole thing if you love ball and are bored) and tell me MJ couldn't get 10 ast easily if that was what his team needed. I feel Kobe also had these moments and many great scorers. Sometimes you can draw so much attention it's better to be a scorer who makes the timely correct pass.

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