"wrong foil color" Kobe rookie - what to do

[Nomad]

So,

This has been on my mind the past couple years, as I have seen the basketball market rise and crater and gone from troll to accepted member to troll and back again.

What should I do with the Kobe rookie graded "wrong foil color" error/variation, still presumably at the CSG vault in Florida?

A recap:

The first indicator that it was an interesting find was my own research and criterion of a good error/variation being that which both a seasoned 90s collector and a relative newbie (me) could believe in good faith was in fact a rare variation.

The second was the attention it garnered on Blowout, though actually a lot of money is riding on set propositions in clcting, and there is more inertia going backward, as sunk investment choices blah blah... didn't quite realize that at the time.

The third was that, despite my booking a booth at the first Mint Collective in LV, CSG refused to send it to me by mail or bring it in person for me to pick up. Reason, I finally pried out, was the insurance level I sent it in at was so low they could not in good faith take it out of the vault it unless I picked it up in person. The value was unknown.

The fourth was that neither PSA (duh) or Beckett (whoah) would think of grading it, but the head Beckett grader, known for his interest in errors/variations, had recently been poached by CSG. So miraculously it was reputably graded.

The fifth was that a Golden representative could not be convinced a) that it was not a back-doored card b) that there were not other examples in still unopened boxes or c) even if these criterion were met, it would be worthy of inclusion in a premier level auction.

The sixth was that some veteran BO member made the actual effort of ordering a few "silvers" he saw off eBay. Later turned out that, yes, gold foil can appear silver on a bad scanner.

The seventh is that I reached out to someone who knew all about Topps production of 90s and he said the manufacturing was outsourced and that blah blah I forget. Anyway, 99 % proved the pack-pulled aspect, which I had confirmed initially (the collector remembered pulling it).

The eight is Kobe himself. Foil variation of his first pro card. A remnant of a first batch before they perfected the ink color that somehow made it into a pack. Sounds fictional but plausibly true.

[Blake050]

Do you have a picture of the card?

[GOATcards]

make this about the card of a stronger GOAT candidate and then I'll be more interested, strain is strawberry pie

[Nomad]

Do you have a picture of the card?

https://i.imgur.com/oaUydY8l.png

https://i.imgur.com/oOYEAjMl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/kj5eHSYl.jpg

that last one a norm check purchased from same clcter.

[Blake050]

What would you estimate the value of this card? Hypothetically, what amount would it take for you to sell it?

[Nomad]

make this about the card of a stronger GOAT candidate and then I'll be more interested, strain is strawberry pie

glass house - waiting game.. and hot green tea with tropical florals

[Nomad]

What would you estimate the value of this card? Hypothetically, what amount would it take for you to sell it?

I would prefer to trade it with some cash on top. I want a more diversified 90s insert collection. I can say off the top of my head that 10 PMG greens exist.

Probably a few dozen more 96-97 Topps Finest boxes have been opened since 2021. Another few thousand old collections gone through and plundered. So, well, let's just say to be generous that 5 of these might plausibly exist.

[Blake050]

I would prefer to trade it with some cash on top. I want a more diversified 90s insert collection. I can say off the top of my head that 10 PMG greens exist.

Last sale of a Kobe PMG green that I can find was in March 2020 for almost $150k.

Last sale of a Kobe PMG red was in August 2023 for a PSA "Authentic" slab for $84k.

So you'd value this around $150k?

[Nomad]

That sounds reasonable. Although green is probably more like $250k now. A something something Kobe insert just did six figures on Golden.

Also I want to help the original clcter build a basketball park or something.

[Blake050]

If you had to guess, what do you think it would go for if you put it up for ebay auction starting at 99 cents?

[tjforce]

$0.99 and let it ride.

Pay for any kind of eBay promoted listing if you'd like.

[Nomad]

Probably not the right question for this kind of card. As with fake news, no serious collector would buy an error like this on the bay unless it was a stab in the dark steal. Because it wouldn't come up in any other way.

Sorry, it won't.

[Archangel1775]

The third was that, despite my booking a booth at the first Mint Collective in LV, CSG refused to send it to me by mail or bring it in person for me to pick up. Reason, I finally pried out, was the insurance level I sent it in at was so low they could not in good faith take it out of the vault it unless I picked it up in person. The value was unknown.

USPS: Registered mail max insurance: $50,000
FedEx: Max $100,000
UPS" Max $100,000

You both believe it's worth more than $100k? Don't get me wrong, I'm probably picking it up if it's worth more than a car.

Edited to add: I see now you feel its the equivalent or better to a PMG Green.

[Nomad]

That's what I came to believe. I mean, to be honest it cost me $500 and a lot of time, effort, and gas to set up in LV. If a grading card company cannot bring a specific card to a show it's because the insurance value is unknown and potentially substantial.

Coupled with my own sense of the card's rarity, etc... I know a little about cards and collecting.

Anyhaps, without the card in hand there was no conversation starter. Still had a lot of fun and basically broke even on the booth and food costs.

[Archangel1775]

Interesting card. Never heard of it until today. I wonder if it came from a promo or pre-production set. I know Topps had member's only, Finals and all sorts of sets during that decade. Maybe a set given to executives. Good luck on the sale.

[Nomad]

It is a manufacturing error, closest parallel is the Bronze, Gold, and Silver Neismith 50th Anniversary HOF foil error/variations a couple years later, good luck prying those from collections.

I am actually wondering specifically where to bring it after picking it up in Florida sometime before or after Christmas. Is a show a good route? What's the best show in the next few months for that? A dealer? Any dealers experienced in markets willing to consign at my reserve and save me the leg work on seeing if interest exists? Is there an auction house with knowledge and interest in 90s errors? Or even a serious clcter here could throw me a line.

I am definitely not willing to join Insta or Discord over this.

Or is the card tissue paper, which yeah, any card essentially is.

[phdbeckett]

Not a perfect comparison, but a 1992-93 Upper Deck In your face dunk of Michael Jordan correct variation sells $5 delivered on average. There are few examples with Silver foil instead of gold. One is asking $175k, and 2 other listings over 40k.

Terapeak shows on did $55 in June.

Still better than 10x, but no dilutions of fortune in this example.

I also own one in my pc and would be thrilled to get $100 at market if I could.

[Nomad]

So you're saying people are not yet focused on the graded and notated unobtainable, even in the era before RPAs, jerseys, rainbows, 1/1s, and (essentially) numbered cards. Fair enough.

Sounds like a boring collecting environment tho.

[tjforce]

So you're saying people are not yet focused on the graded and notated unobtainable, even in the era before RPAs, jerseys, rainbows, 1/1s, and (essentially) numbered cards. Fair enough.

Sounds like a boring collecting environment tho.

I think the issue is that a lot people don't want to pay big money for uncertainty.

Most folks don't know what this actually is. Is it a parallel? Factory error? Promo? Back door?

People like buying off of comps and it's hard to know what to comp this with.

[Nomad]

True, but higher risk carries higher reward. I mean if in 10 years the card has been before a few eyeballs, those who started collecting 90s cards who weren't even born in the 90s get more knowledgable, and no other copies emerge...

I'm guessing GOAT rookies are where bankrolls allowing such long term positions to become tenable get involved.

or, not GOAT enough...

[Archangel1775]

I would agree that there are Kobe collectors and 90's collectors that would be interested in this card. I do believe the uncertainty is the issue. This reminds me of the 1993 Topps Vault Derek Jeter Full color proof blank back. Though a very special card and concrete provenance, it was only auctioned for $2500 if I recall correctly. Pre-Auction estimates had it between $25k to $125k. That was about a decade ago. I think today it's probably worth the lower end. The problem with this Kobe is, where are the other silver foil cards? There have to be more out there, at least from this insert set.

[Nomad]

So there are two basic provenance things, beyond what I know from the original collector who had no reason not to remember buying the packs at his LCS. Noting that if there were more than one known copy of this error I wouldn't need to go through this:

1) there are "no foil" variations out there but these were all cut from preproduction sheets that this dealer on eBay freely admitted to cutting up (and why shouldn't he)? At the microscopic level, factory cut is very distinct from any other kind of cut, even with a Gretzky O Pee Chee rookie. So one can assume pack pulled. I assume CSG also has chemical analysis to confirm age of foil application and whether oxidation patterns fall within the norm.

2) His theory (bought his sheets from the old factory I guess) was that they were probably revving up the machines and getting the foil ink applicator going at the very start of production and that nearly all cards that had the faulty silver foil were discarded en masse on the floor. They probably stopped production and changed the ink ratio. Occasionally cards slip through, say one fell on the floor instead of the waste basket and a worker subsequently slotted it in a few minutes later.

Now yeah, each card requires a little research in such production error cases. One year can vary from another. But fortunes have been made in other areas of collectables from such nuances.

[GOATcards]

glass house - waiting game.. and hot green tea with tropical florals

cross of FPOG and MAC, both deliciously sweet strains, will look for

(garlic icing rn, and not GMO-based either. huh)

[mc1]

Silver foil >>> wrong foil

You should have told them to label as silver foil instead.

[Nomad]

A true collector will see through the word bias theorem. But yeah, on the reslab I will tell them to label it "true silver, FOTL Kobe, infinity symbol"

[duron]

Gold Minted in Springfields are usually never labeled as such, right?

Isn’t it just accepted as the bronze with printing continuity issues?

And speaking of being “minted,” if this was the coin world numismatists would be losing their minds. But even still, are you being serious when you say a ~150k valuation seems reasonable?

[Nomad]

They usually never are (https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1378459)... TBH honest the color differences must be a lot more subtle (bronze to gold).

So basically there are factors that separate any card beyond the type. Is it a rookie? How many exist? Who is it? Is it graded?

I assume there are second-year Kobes in the Minted in Springfields. So same player, yes. I assume that dozens, if not hundreds of such cards are in existence. (That's still minute, considering the hundreds of thousands of flagship Topps printed).

I see purported golds for sale on eBay but would not personally risk it, given lack of documentation on the slabs. Bronze in the right light/scanner/photoshop looks gold. I don't see any documented sales on the Bay anyway. So we would have to ask collectors at shows what they buy, trade, and sell them for. Even then, the rarity probably far exceeds the price, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone has amassed a full set. Or was the printing error limited to a certain sheet?

I would suggest that someone who does own a genuine gold copy enquire at CSG whether they would be willing to notate the well known foil variation (I think there is an even rarer silver as well?). Then we could get a rough pop count at least, and some certainty, and start talking price.

Then see how long it takes the supply to dry up and the price to trend northward.

With a one of a kind graded rookie Kobe first card variation comps kind of go out the window. Lets say a collector had a few Kobe star rubies, a couple nice EX-2000 /500, several gemmed 50th Anniversary, at least three That's Jam, and too many Dunk N' Go Nuts to count. What do you collect next? That's what drives value.

[The Finest]

Not trying to sound negative but I personally would be surprised if this card sold for 4 figures at auction. I would guess maybe a couple hundred dollars as a novelty. I don't see how this card is even in the same sentence in the same sentence as a PMG especially since the major grading companies wouldn't even grade it. Is there sales in the past that would warrant this 6 figure evaluation? Again, not trying to sound negative, just wondering if there's something I'm missing.

[Nomad]

Well, it's one of a kind. Errors are not a novelty. They are just not part of how collecting and grading in basketball evolved. But then again, realize that basketball didn't even have a set for four years in the 80s. So you know, it's still a young and presumably fluid collecting market.

If you can find a similarly distinct foil color variation on this Kobe rookie, let me know. Buy it for a couple hundred bucks. Except you can't. There are no parallels or other graded variations, so thats it.

I do have a silver foil Fleer Kobe from the same year, but it's not as distinct or obvious a color difference. (A single MJ silver has appeared on the forum, so we know that it was a printing sheet error like Made in Springfield).

It took the rarest stamp find decades to reach its fulcrum price. I mean, collectors in the 1870s believed it didn't exist.

I think we can call CSG one of the big 4?

[The Finest]

Well, it's one of a kind. Errors are not a novelty. They are just not part of how collecting and grading in basketball evolved. But then again, realize that basketball didn't even have a set for four years in the 80s. So you know, it's still a young and presumably fluid collecting market.

If you can find a similarly different foil color on this Kobe rookie, let me know. I do have a silver foil Fleer from the same year, but it's not as distinct and obvious color difference. A single MJ silver has appeared on the forum.

It took the rarest stamp find decades to reach its fulcrum price. I mean, collectors in the 1870s believed it didn't exist.

I think we can call CSG one of the big 4?

Yea CSG is one of the big 4. Be interested to see what it does at auction.

[Nomad]

Im not putting it up at auction without a large reserve. Assuming they would accept it. It might not sell for years. Then again there might be two deep-pocketed rare error GOAT rookie basketball collectors. Sorry, investors. Or baseball error investors wanting to jump pond and see if Honus envy translates to another sport. That's all it takes to establish a high value when something is one of a kind.

By the way, I am having fun. Not taking this super seriously, though yeah, when the chips are down it's 'my card my price.'

[Nomad]

Wow, teapot is just hitting home runs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N886ewla41w) if you want to look at the nuanced actual one of a kind vs. massively inflated price and artificial scarcity debate, which is what this is leading to.

[johnscards]

If this were my card, I would put in on eBay exactly how it is at $0.99 starting price and let it ride. It's interesting, but for all anyone knows, it's some backdoored card and not even pack-pulled. There's just no way to know for absolute certain, unless you were the collector who pulled it from the pack. You say you bought it from that collector, but you didn't pull it, the collector said he did. Again, no way to know with absolute certainty.

[mc1]

$500-1000 is the best estimate

Good luck if you think anyone will pay more than that for a simple foil error

[Nomad]

I'm not gonna diss your estimate, cause you know a lot about cards, but also it's not available at that price. And I could surely use the money.

If you or anyone has a similar GOAT rookie error from the pre-Panini era that is also graded and the only copy known, step forth and let's discuss a trade. I will consider one card for one card on that.

[jcardstore]

$500-1000 is the best estimate

Good luck if you think anyone will pay more than that for a simple foil error

Just consider who you’re talking to. Nomad thinks he can swap his Aaron nesmith cards for Cade

What he can’t seem to understand is that there’s little to no demand for this. Is “supply” low? Sure? Maybe? Who cares?

It’s a niche of a niche with very few people who will care. Doubt it even goes for that much if you just let it run at .99 auction. It’s irrelevant anyways cause it’ll never sell

[Nomad]

Again, scarcity. Does anyone else have similar?

In simple playground terms, my piece of cardboard is more unique and special than yours.

[jcardstore]

Again, scarcity. Does anyone else have similar?

In simple playground terms, my piece of cardboard is more unique and special than yours.

Scarcity doesn’t matter if nobody else cares. I have the only jcard autograph on earth, can’t get more scarce, does that make it valuable?

Value only exists if agreed upon between 2 or more parties. In this case your valuation (which you are perfectly entitled to have) is so far away from anything that could be considered reality, it doesn’t matter.

[Nomad]

Just consider who you’re talking to. Nomad thinks he can swap his Aaron nesmith cards for Cade

So we are still at the stage of Nesmith fan knowledge where two highly educated basketball commentators can discuss the Pacers amazing performance against the Bucks for an hour and not even mention his name.

Either you watch games of teams or you don't and your sample is based on a game where he rolled his ankle and still played 16 minutes with high efficiency. And Math looked like the second coming of Iverson. So you discuss basic math. But it's not to say that higher forms of arithmetic don't exist.

[jcardstore]

So we are still at the stage of Nesmith fan knowledge when two highly educated basketball commentators can discuss the Pacers amazing performance against the Bucks for an hour and not even mention his name.

Either you watch games of teams or you don't and your sample is based on a game where he rolled his ankle and still played 16 minutes with high efficiency everything. And Math looked like the second coming of Iverson. So you discuss Math.

Yes :coffee:

[jcardstore]

I think Nomad got into some of GOATs weed today

[Nomad]

Scarcity doesn’t matter if nobody else cares. I have the only jcard autograph on earth, can’t get more scarce, does that make it valuable?

Value only exists if agreed upon between 2 or more parties. In this case your valuation (which you are perfectly entitled to have) is so far away from anything that could be considered reality, it doesn’t matter.

jcard Bryant, I presume? Still not interested, you're just his brother.

[PLB9eight]

I'm not gonna diss your estimate, cause you know a lot about cards, but also it's not available at that price. And I could surely use the money.

If you or anyone has a similar GOAT rookie error from the pre-Panini era that is also graded and the only copy known, step forth and let's discuss a trade. I will consider one card for one card on that.


It’s not an error. It’s a defect.

[Nomad]

Okay, like I say, semantics. I am actively seeking defect cards. Call it a strategy or defective thinking, but if my bankroll was larger and I wanted that you would have a fair selection in front of me. If they were available. And graded.

I guess you wouldn't have any, on second thoughts. I would have to look really hard, scouring eBay constantly, or pay what someone was willing to sell the card at.

But think how you like. Some people consider flux and recon trash. Some look at them fondly as the two original sets birthed from Chronicles. Some think they are the only worthy new thing Panini has done in four years of raking in dough.

[bradjames12]

Can't be any more valuable than your man crush..

Right?

[PLB9eight]

Okay, like I say, semantics. I am actively seeking defect cards. Call it a strategy or defective thinking, but if my bankroll was larger and I wanted that you would have a fair selection in front of me. If they were available. And graded.

I guess you wouldn't have any, on second thoughts. I would have to look really hard, scouring eBay constantly, or pay what someone was willing to sell the card at.

But think how you like. Some people consider flux and recon trash. Some look at them fondly as the two original sets birthed from Chronicles. Some think they are the only worthy new thing Panini has done in four years of raking in dough.


How’s this any different than the Jordan you dismissed in the other thread? Wrong foil, no foil, same scenario.

[GOATcards]

Yea CSG is one of the big 4. Be interested to see what it does at auction.

I saw CGS slabs for the first time at a LCS the other day, first one I picked up to look at was a mint 9 with white clearly showing against black border on the card's corner :)!

[GOATcards]

I think Nomad got into some of GOATs weed today

I thunk he got his own :confused:

[GOATcards]

Scarcity doesn’t matter if nobody else cares. I have the only jcard autograph on earth, can’t get more scarce, does that make it valuable?

Value only exists if agreed upon between 2 or more parties. In this case your valuation (which you are perfectly entitled to have) is so far away from anything that could be considered reality, it doesn’t matter.

monetary value is just one kind of value. someone might value something very highly personally even if it is worth little monetarily. aesthetic value is its own category, and so on

[Nomad]

And so on. But I am making an argument on why I believe the card could and prolly should could be valued extremely high. Monetarily.

Now I know I will not convince those that are opposed, but a few on the fence may begin to see my point through the simple explanation laid out of true scarcity vs. manufactured scarcity. (simple math: TSC 96-97 total print run - hundies of thousies. PSA 10 Kobe - 333 Graded variations, foil or otherwise - 1)

Beyond that there is the nuanced idea that printing errors bring out really fun complexities in valuation and in fact increase the fun factor of opening old wax that has no parallels or numbering, exponentially. Who needs the same old card in the same old slab, at the end of the day?

Market movers does. Bulk quantities drive listing trends. But also imply there are too many out there.

Anyway, which show is good from December to March on the East Coast? I am thinking of a "like for like" trade challenge.

[jcardstore]

monetary value is just one kind of value. someone might value something very highly personally even if it is worth little monetarily. aesthetic value is its own category, and so on

Certainly he’s talking about valuation in terms of currency but anything can be valued in terms of anything else. It only matters if both parties feel they benefit. Value is that perceived benefit. I can exchange cards for rocks if I valued the rocks more than the cards and you valued the cards more than the rocks

[Nomad]

Absolutely. You can. I can. We can. But I can also influence the needle on certain cards. That's allowed in the hobby. We have seen that the intelligence of average collector is a bag of rocks. They will buy whatever you put before them as desirable. And when they wake up with graded rocks that everyone also has, and can't sell them for the price of the plastic encapsulating them, the market declines 90 percent, with room for further decline. This is because Panini has 30 products to sell us now and dealers depend on new, shiny, and graders depend on bulk submissions. Its an ecosystem of value erected around surplus and the undervaluing of true scarcity.

But anyway, this is all nemawashi.

It's none on the thread so far that I need to convince.

[90skid]

Nomad, why don't you get ahold of spinotron - I'm sure he's willing to straight up trade his Kobe 1/1's or maybe cash+his green PMG for your 1/1 Wrong Foil Color CSG 9 Kobe RC.

I'd love to hear his response.

https://i.imgur.com/QL27Yxal.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/mwdw7mdl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/pkWlpfcl.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/PkKOfkLl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/xP6FSZ7l.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/V7kFStll.jpg

[Nomad]

Spinotron. That's quite an escalation. I hear he destroys Kobe 10s just to keep the pop small.

[Nomad]

Kind of cool how every Kobe thread devolves into a display of bling tho. I admire spins passion, I remember how he like started as an average collector with a Kobe fixation and then felt impelled to get the best of every cornerstone card.

In fact, that may have inspired the Nesmith gambit. I just kick myself that the only prizm rookie I have of note is the (rookie) jersey number 26/199 blue. Though the second year 75/75 75th anniversary is pretty cool.

[duron]

How’s this any different than the Jordan you dismissed in the other thread? Wrong foil, no foil, same scenario.

https://media.tenor.com/qvfHNJsY70AAAAAd/its-not-kai-manning.gif

[bigdog2003]

How’s this any different than the Jordan you dismissed in the other thread? Wrong foil, no foil, same scenario.

He doesn't have the Jordan.

[90sbasketballin]

Went from the Nesmith pump to the Wrong Foil Kobe Pump :D

[Nomad]

I think you do not understand the underlying purpose. I am providing a key for unlocking value in the hobby beyond the more than overpriced breaking and flash non-GU bling ecosystem.

When you get down to it, value is what you would trade something for. It would take one of those cards above (none is a rookie) and cash to make me drive all the way to Florida and spend two days with the CSG vault managers trying to locate the card.

It also has to do with what one of the most respected 90s grading authorities in the hobby would deem worth slabbing with special notation. That is clear pop control and obstacle in the way of quick gainz, as is the funky wrong wording.

Start discussing the nuances of 90s errors. There are lots, they are all interesting, and they cannot be easily categorized and graded in 35 seconds. Each type requires careful consideration. Start thinking at this level and the market will stabilize because now you are thinking as collectors in other established areas that have lasted centuries do. Two threads currently on page one beyond my obvious pump attempt are a good start.

Boom and bust is more fun, for a while. But those who get burned never return or it takes decades. Look at poker.

[Nomad]

Went from the Nesmith pump to the Wrong Foil Kobe Pump :D

Nesmith doesn't require a pump. He may be out with sprained ankle against the 76ers, prolly should not have played 15 more minutes on it TBH, but a narrow victory (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WuWTNUkDSU) against the Bucks arguably worth it. Contained and kept the Bucks from surging right when they were about too and buried two critical threes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spjGaLkYwaQ). Stats don't tell that line but eye test.

[Nomad]

He doesn't have the Jordan.

The Jordan ain't a Kobe rookie and there are probably others. But keep on pushing false equivalences.

From the other thread (https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1572275): "It was very common and really still is for card sheets to miss the foil overlay process and still be packed out. However, this being Jordan, it's worth more than normal."

Now teapot is over rookies (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N886ewla41w), so maybe I should be too. You should hear what he has to say about the Jordan and Rice rookie designs of the 80s.

[Nomad]

request. argue in text all you want but don't pollute my thread with scary faces. Drake memes always welcome.

[bigdog2003]

The Jordan ain't a Kobe rookie and there are probably others. But keep on pushing false equivalences.

From the other thread (https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1572275): "It was very common and really still is for card sheets to miss the foil overlay process and still be packed out. However, this being Jordan, it's worth more than normal."

Now teapot is over rookies (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N886ewla41w), so maybe I should be too. You should hear what he has to say about the Jordan and Rice rookie designs of the 80s.

You have no proof there arent other copies of the Kobe.

[Nomad]

Posted about it two years ago and asked grading companies, auction houses, 90s error experts (they exist) and collectors like Big Dawg or whatever and none have emerged yet. From any player. A BO member ordered a few that looked silver on scans. They were gold.

Nothing is conclusive, but 30 years on a lot of product has been ripped...

[JAMSC]

I’ll trade you a Nesmith Hoops rookie for this

[Nomad]

I trade you for the best player on an Iowa team. I guess that would be collegiate. I mean a Nesmith Hoops rookie. Turquoise or Gold, depending on what you got. Might as well give you easy entry onto the bandwagon.

[duron]

I think you do not understand the underlying purpose. I am providing a key for unlocking value in the hobby beyond the more than overpriced breaking and flash non-GU bling ecosystem.

When you get down to it, value is what you would trade something for. It would take one of those cards above (none is a rookie) and cash to make me drive all the way to Florida and spend two days with the CSG vault managers trying to locate the card.

It also has to do with what one of the most respected 90s grading authorities in the hobby would deem worth slabbing with special notation. That is clear pop control and obstacle in the way of quick gainz, as is the funky wrong wording.

Start discussing the nuances of 90s errors. There are lots, they are all interesting, and they cannot be easily categorized and graded in 35 seconds. Each type requires careful consideration. Start thinking at this level and the market will stabilize because now you are thinking as collectors in other established areas that have lasted centuries do. Two threads currently on page one beyond my obvious pump attempt are a good start.

Boom and bust is more fun, for a while. But those who get burned never return or it takes decades. Look at poker.

Nesmith doesn't require a pump. He may be out with sprained ankle against the 76ers, prolly should not have played 15 more minutes on it TBH, but a narrow victory (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WuWTNUkDSU) against the Bucks arguably worth it. Contained and kept the Bucks from surging right when they were about too and buried two critical threes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spjGaLkYwaQ). Stats don't tell that line but eye test.

The Jordan ain't a Kobe rookie and there are probably others. But keep on pushing false equivalences.

From the other thread (https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1572275): "It was very common and really still is for card sheets to miss the foil overlay process and still be packed out. However, this being Jordan, it's worth more than normal."

Now teapot is over rookies (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N886ewla41w), so maybe I should be too. You should hear what he has to say about the Jordan and Rice rookie designs of the 80s.

request. argue in text all you want but don't pollute my thread with scary faces. Drake memes always welcome.

Posted about it two years ago and asked grading companies, auction houses, 90s error experts (they exist) and collectors like Big Dawg or whatever and none have emerged yet. From any player. A BO member ordered a few that looked silver on scans. They were gold.

Nothing is conclusive, but 30 years on a lot of product has been ripped...

I trade you for the best player on an Iowa team. I guess that would be collegiate. I mean a Nesmith Hoops rookie. Turquoise or Gold, depending on what you got. Might as well give you easy entry onto the bandwagon.

https://us.nihonkohden.com/media/1520/nka_nomad.jpg
https://maxvaluemedical.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/nomad.jpg

[90skid]

It would take one of those cards above (none is a rookie) and cash to make me drive all the way to Florida and spend two days with the CSG vault managers trying to locate the card.


:coffee: :rolleyes:

[Nomad]

Well that's not random. Looks like he got conked out on GOAT's stash and finally having a pleasant sleep, despite intrusive device.

I tried, kids. Tried to be that troll and actually got a solid offer.

[duron]

Well that's not random. Looks like he got conked out on GOAT's stash and finally having a pleasant sleep, despite intrusive device.

I tried, kids. Tried to be that troll and actually got a solid offer.

https://www.stamperdog.com/images/2014/11/14-VeteransDay.jpg

[Nomad]

Damn. Just kidding.

Not to worry though, I'm on it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmLKyZEA2OI).


https://i.imgur.com/DO89piZl.png

[lbailey]

About 3 years ago I was going through my collection and found a Durant topps rookie with the foil missing from the front. This is when the topps kd’s we’re going straight nuts. I sent it to bgs and got them to label it as missing foil. It was a pop 1 of 1 at the time and I put it up on eBay for something like $10k. I was amazing I got no bites. I decided to let it do at auction. It got about 60% what a foil card would have received.

[jcardstore]

Damn. Just kidding.

Not to worry though, I'm on it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmLKyZEA2OI).


https://i.imgur.com/DO89piZl.png

Really hard to tell whether this is parody or not

[Nomad]

I agree. It's kind of scary if it is and really scary if it isn't.

[Nomad]

About 3 years ago I was going through my collection and found a Durant topps rookie with the foil missing from the front. This is when the topps kd’s we’re going straight nuts. I sent it to bgs and got them to label it as missing foil. It was a pop 1 of 1 at the time and I put it up on eBay for something like $10k. I was amazing I got no bites. I decided to let it do at auction. It got about 60% what a foil card would have received.

Should have held on to it. I mean, like I said, I am not really on the "no-foil" bandwagon unless the aesthetics are amazing, but it's unique. Remember a lot of "no foil," if graded, would turn out to be cut preproduction sheets. Probably not as late as 07.

When I have some scratch, like Spinotron, I will put my money on which errors I think have merit. Back when he started collecting Kobe jersey numbers, not too many were valued and now we are halfway there. The jersey number, or even a bookend, does drive sales with certain players, particularly if they merit supercollectors, am I wrong?

[ychui1]

Gotta find my 1996-97 Topps Basketball rc Kobe and Iverson missing foil.

[Nomad]

Gotta find my 1996-97 Topps Basketball rc Kobe and Iverson missing foil.

Unlike the 07 Durant Topps rookie (which is probably a rare find, I'm no expert) those are probably hand cut from sheets in that year, if Topps and TSC outsourced to same printer. To some that is highly confusing. But then look at stamps or coins on why details matter.

Someone actually needs to make a comprehensive online list. This is how in-depth (https://stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=67345) you could take a single 90s issue. The years when foil, diecuts, chromium, and laminates were being introduced actually parallels the official issue of one penny stamps in February 1854. Perforation tech was developing fast. A few types hold not only substantial, but exponential, value.

[Nomad]

Damn. Just kidding.

Not to worry though, I'm on it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmLKyZEA2OI).


https://i.imgur.com/DO89piZl.png

Actually I find this guy hilarious... at least his whiteboard. Most interesting think on the state of hobby in a long time. Obviously has his money stashed in 90 percent loss slabs.

Kind of reminds me of a low-budget version of that Timepiece Gentleman guy, who was just implicated in a $3 million scam (https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/15/us/anthony-farrer-timepiece-gentleman-fbi-arrest-cec/index.html).

He forgot the Nesmith paradigm though. If you play gritty enough, ppl have no choice but to remember a name.

The prognosis is cautiously hopeful. In the 76ers game the male announcer could not pronounce his name. Even after corrected by the female announcer, he persisted in Neh-smith. But by the time of the rematch, he had his name down solid.

Similarly, The Athletic NBA Show guy runs through the list (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t72ym_QgKoQ), Haliburton, Myles, Toppin, Math, Nembhard. When the other guy prods him Nesmith, he does a second take "Aaron Nesmith's been doing good for them, and that's a dude I wrote off a while ago."

Yeah, a crash collection may be the equivalent of a silver Kobe: not worthy of scorn, but not exactly Insta friendly. But, unlike with static markets, all is fair in cards and war. Things evolve, teams that shouldn't win do. And people finally begin to figure out the reasons why.

[cms11]

He forgot the Nesmith paradigm though. If you play gritty enough, ppl have no choice but to remember a name.

You'll remember the name: Toumani Camara.

[Nomad]

Start a thread and convince me. I'll probably troll you for two solid years, but you have a chance.

[phdbeckett]

Isn't this a rookie year insert, and not a "Rookie card." Some say there is a BIG difference.

[Nomad]

Yes, technically, because all rookies in TSC were numbered as a subset. But there is no "base" rookie in TSC, which is how that distinction came about (ala Mosaic Rookie Debut). Other than the numbering, there is no indication of insert on the card, so it doesn't meet the traditional definition either. Companies had not quite realized that we need lots of parallels and inserts of every rookie to spread the hit love. They simply printed to the moon.

So we can say this predates that riveting, hair-splitting debate.

And this is counterbalanced by the fact that it's Kobe's first pro card, which again many collectors don't care about, but some do.

Some say its not a game taken photo, it predates when Kobe stepped on the floor. Others point to it as a fascinating early use of the Photoshop app.

But at the end of the day, it came out a week before the Fleer set in January, 1997, and I am probably not alone in thinking that that makes it coolest.

[Archangel1775]

Yes, technically, because all rookies in TSC were numbered as a subset. But there is no "base" rookie in TSC, which is how that distinction came about (ala Mosaic Rookie Debut). Other than the numbering, there is no indication of insert on the card, so it doesn't meet the traditional definition either. Companies had not quite realized that we need lots of parallels and inserts of every rookie to spread the hit love. They simply printed to the moon.



I believe in order for Beckett to call it an official rookie card, it needs to be numbered as part of the base set, design withstanding. This was brought up ad nauseum in Baseball's 2021 Bowmans Best set thread.

[mc1]

Yes, technically, because all rookies in TSC were numbered as a subset. But there is no "base" rookie in TSC, which is how that distinction came about (ala Mosaic Rookie Debut). Other than the numbering, there is no indication of insert on the card, so it doesn't meet the traditional definition either. Companies had not quite realized that we need lots of parallels and inserts of every rookie to spread the hit love. They simply printed to the moon.

So we can say this predates that riveting, hair-splitting debate.

And this is counterbalanced by the fact that it's Kobe's first pro card, which again many collectors don't care about, but some do.

Some say its not a game taken photo, it predates when Kobe stepped on the floor. Others point to it as a fascinating early use of the Photoshop app.

But at the end of the day, it came out a week before the Fleer set in January, 1997, and I am probably not alone in thinking that that makes it coolest.

Theres “rookies” in both series. None are true base.

[phdbeckett]

Yes, technically, because all rookies in TSC were numbered as a subset. But there is no "base" rookie in TSC, which is how that distinction came about (ala Mosaic Rookie Debut). Other than the numbering, there is no indication of insert on the card, so it doesn't meet the traditional definition either. Companies had not quite realized that we need lots of parallels and inserts of every rookie to spread the hit love. They simply printed to the moon.

So we can say this predates that riveting, hair-splitting debate.

And this is counterbalanced by the fact that it's Kobe's first pro card, which again many collectors don't care about, but some do.

Some say its not a game taken photo, it predates when Kobe stepped on the floor. Others point to it as a fascinating early use of the Photoshop app.

But at the end of the day, it came out a week before the Fleer set in January, 1997, and I am probably not alone in thinking that that makes it coolest.

I can't agree with the statement that it predates...
1995-96 Stadium Club had "Rookies" in series 1 in this same manner, but in series 2, they included the rookies in the base set. Same players representing the series 1 set were all part of series 2 as well. Subsequently, in 1997, all rookies were in the base set, and not inserts.

[Nomad]

If I was to start cataloguing interesting rookie errors, I would start with these three.

Kobe (insert) TSC silver.
Kobe Fleer silver. (have but not graded)
Durant Topps no-foil.

Any others?

[PLB9eight]

I’ve got a Luka optic shock with the black print line. Gotta be the only one with the line in the exact same spot.

[Nomad]

print lines will never be considered value, sorry m8.

as much as I hate to say it as a lover of all things cardboard, something that detracts from (or has minimal effect on) the aesthetics is at best neutral and at worst a defect.

This logic holds true with even Mantle rookies (https://www.cgccards.com/news/article/11010/mickey-mantle-rookie-card-guide/): "In the world of card grading, detail is everything. The tiniest imperfection can devalue a card significantly. As in the case of the 1952 Mantle, where there are two types. Type 1 cards are considered the more pristine of the two, with type 2s generally having poorer centering, print quality or differing details. That said, as long as they have the same grade, a type 1 and type 2 hold the same value."

https://i.imgur.com/h3SZ0sal.jpg

Type-1 (https://memorabiliabrokers.com/2021/08/05/the-1952-topps-mickey-mantle-311-type-1-and-type-2/)

End of ‘e’ in “Mantle” curves upward.
No blue pixel missing on the front of the card, to the left of Mantle’s eyebrow.
Solid black border around Yankees logo.
Solid border around the top of the star-box above name.
Non-glossy right arm.
Missing pixel on bottom-left border (looks rounded)
On the back ‘311’, the baseball stiches point right.
Type-2

End of ‘e’ in “Mantle” does not curve upward.
Blue pixel missing on front of the card, to the left of Mantle’s eyebrow.
Missing black border at the bottom of the Yankees logo.
Jagged border around the top of the star-box above name.
Glossy right arm.
No missing pixel on bottom-left border (looks square).
On the back ‘311’, the baseball stiches point left.


This contrasts with the "white letter (https://www.psacard.com/cardfacts/baseball-cards/1969-topps/mickey-mantle-last-name-white-500/32756#:~:text=The%201969%20Topps%20White%20Letter,was%20done%20with%20white%20lettering.)" '69 Mantle error, which does carry significant premium.

https://i.imgur.com/2YgzMFIl.jpg

"All of Mantle’s career stats can be seen on his 1969 Topps #500 finale, but there is a variation to his already-popular last card. The 1969 Topps White Letter Mantle was produced in limited quantities, along with several other players in the set. Instead of printing the player’s last name in yellow, it was done with white lettering. Was this a simple error at the factory or was it the product of something more sinister, perhaps a ploy to sell more packs? A seemingly “random” error that just happened to impact Mantle on his final Topps card? We’ll never know for sure, but the variation left us with one of the great Mantle cards to collect, one that seems appropriate for the magnitude of Mantle. It was the equivalent to a walk-off home run to end a hobby career."

[ychui1]

Those were pack pulled by me when it first came out, definitely not sheet cut. Still in my storage somewhere, probably placed back in original pack wrapper, just gotta find it. If you know me from my storage posting, you will know I do not deal with aftermarket stuff.

Unlike the 07 Durant Topps rookie (which is probably a rare find, I'm no expert) those are probably hand cut from sheets in that year, if Topps and TSC outsourced to same printer. To some that is highly confusing. But then look at stamps or coins on why details matter.

Someone actually needs to make a comprehensive online list. This is how in-depth (https://stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=67345) you could take a single 90s issue. The years when foil, diecuts, chromium, and laminates were being introduced actually parallels the official issue of one penny stamps in February 1854. Perforation tech was developing fast. A few types hold not only substantial, but exponential, value.

[Nomad]

Next thing to do is contact CSG and see if they are open to grading and notating more stuff from 90s that can be authenticated as factory cut, etc.

No way I would touch that, not knowing you, for anything more than a simple trade, unless it was slabbed and notated.

And like I said, my thing would be foil color error of early to late 90s, before the parallel system got cranked up. In other words, errors that are both clearly distinguishable and don't have missing elements. Key sets where collectors are missing options other than base. To me that is the sweet spot.

Unless there is an inverted Jordan out there. Even in a wizard uni....

[ychui1]

Here is a link to my storage posting:

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1374980

[Nomad]

tell you what... contact CSG and see if they will grade and notate that. If they will I'll cover the cost and then we can trade on fair terms.

[Nomad]

So, finally got the silver Kobe in hand. Amazingly, all it required at this late date was reaching out and providing a mailing address. Forget the insurance question, CSG fedexed it for free. I was beyond asking about the insurance.

Also amazingly, they broke it out of the original case and put it in an updated case. If anything convinces me of its value, it is this. Has anyone ever heard of such a thing? I mean, I know there is a reholder/regrade option at PSA.

https://i.imgur.com/FZ5SLI1l.jpeg

Anyway, it looks amazing. Like a million dollars, at least. In hand, still in awe that this even exists.

https://i.imgur.com/vbVwJIgl.jpeg
mature enough to withstand the NBA pressure?

[Nomad]

Just consider who you’re talking to. Nomad thinks he can swap his Aaron nesmith cards for Cade

getting there.

[RKH916]

I'm confused, why have you only just gotten this card back after 1.5 years?

Also... Any quarter million dollar offers yet?

[Nomad]

No, but I am willing to trade like for like.

Also, if I have capital I will put up substantial bounties for 1-1 90s error/variations that are CSG slabbed and notated. That means pack-pulled. Maybe start at $1,000 and trust the market, like Nesmith's, continues to organically evolve.

Take up golf, so I can get a few rich guys into a competitive donk-swinging thing about it.

Anyway, there's hope. That gold shimmer fifth-year Prizm I bought best-offer for $35 last week now hovering around $52, with two days to go and visible whitening on the corner.

The heady feeling of finding a new floor.

[ninjacookies]

Expand thy horizons, brethren.

Tennis market is a burgeoning bertha just waiting to explode Peter Norte style.

I'd give strong consideration into swapping for Yannik Sinner rookiez before tax refunds hit consigliere desktops. That Lucchese denaro hit different.

[Nomad]

Dogge doo coin?

We accept all.

You have some Type 1 circa. 1898 racing yacht (https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1595799) photos, might even work.

https://i.imgur.com/ztGwhU4l.jpeg

[ninjacookies]

Mans really flexed the bored ape yacht club Indy 500 pivot.

Vespucci smiling like a proud dad rn. I approve.

[Nomad]

Diversification is such an important part of long term returns. At least one of your crazy picks has to work out.

And once you have capital you can manipulate the market.

https://i.imgur.com/LYEZTVhl.png
The Tiger Woods of his day, I hear.

[ninjacookies]

The Cablinasian strat.

They bob; you weave.

https://media.tenor.com/UDqK2yabRTkAAAAM/tony-talks-iamtonytalks.gif

[Nomad]

Anyway, just collect what you like.

But that '90s error bounty is real. My lasting service to the hobby.

[ninjacookies]

Ain't gotta tell me thrice. Never once complained about Vandross prices. If the ship goes down, I'm od'ing on sea moss. Zero ragrets.

[Nomad]

The only issue I have ninja, and I missed you when you were away, is that you turn every semi-rational conversation into a head scratch.

I can riff off your references. It's what we professional writers do. I can self-referentially mock the squareness of small market teams and peak-hype mentalities in the face of social, and devalue the valuable for the sake of argument. But you also notice that my core premises are pretty unwavering.

Look beyond the manufactured scarcity. Find graders willing to authenticate rare errors. The wheat will eventually separate itself from the chafe. Pretty quickly, actually.

That $1,000 bounty I put up will not easily be fulfilled. Despite thousands of raw "1-1 errors" inhabiting the Bay. Despite scanners that make gold look silver. Learn to differentiate and it will set you free.

Yes, the graders will curse for a while. But once benchmarks of what is valuable are determined, meaningful commerce can proceed. In errors. In cards. Who woulda thunk.

Which only supports an investment-oriented ecosystem based on player, year, issue, and rarity. And let's face it, those who invest thousands of dollars in boxes, breaks, lots, and singles, want reliable liquidity when the belt hits the fan.

At the same time, we want the chase. We want to feel the thrill of unknown value in a box of '96 TSC that has no parallels or numbered cards, simply by virtue of having been produced in the mid 1990s. To use a Topps Finest analogy, it's not much fun to open boxes that produce 2.5 Kobe apprentices bass, and the occasional refractor, and where the only question is whether cards are bricked or not.

Properly valuing the Kobe silver is not only important for my bankbook, but for the hobby.

Things can and do change on a dime after years of rigid stratification and Ja Z obsession. Look how much hype Nesmith is about to get, if he helps topple the Knicks. But let's not talk about me. Could be Deuce. Could be Brunson. Murray, through sheer repetition on forums like this (and current results) is probably in a more stable place.

Kobe? Might not reliably be top page on the forum, all his issues are five years out of date, but never goes away. There's buyers, folks.

I'm just gonna reprise this beautiful find and thank CSG again for caring.

https://i.imgur.com/FZ5SLI1l.jpeg
This is what I am looking for. Turn pennies into cash. Max out my credit card.

[90skid]

Properly valuing the Kobe silver is not only important for my bankbook, but for the hobby.


List it on eBay for $0.99 7 day auction. You'll be "amazed" what it sells for. Then the hobby gets its answer. :coffee:

[Nomad]

That is one view, you're not the first to state it. I think that's not the wing of the hobby I am aiming for with this. I know the hobby is inclusive of .99 auctions and some do that a lot. Works with items that trade within a tight and predictable band, or those with team bots who bid things up predictably.

For me that is a good way to let go of unique items way too cheap. It's like going to a flea market to sell a Rembrandt. Yeah it takes time to find a buyer for a unique piece of art.

Time is all I got and, fortunately, sales venues in the hobby extend beyond flash sales. A lot of upper-echelon buyers probably actively avoid eBay and Insta, unless they can't find a similar piece anywhere else.

Also, I am placing a $1,000 bounty on this or similar. Why would I place the card for sale at .99? You already have a market floor.

Think about Pawn Stars. You don't sell something for less than you paid. You offer less than half of what you are willing to sell it for, realizing that every collectible takes time to find the right home. Same applies to a $1,000 bounty. It is not a lottery prize, it's an investment offer with risk and upside.

Yeah, you can list the CSG graded and notated 1-1 90s rookie HOF error on eBay for $100k, and it may someday be worth it, but until then the $1k offer stands.

[bluebirds987]

Time to move this thread to the buy, sell, trade forum. OP asked for advice on what to do with the card, ignored that advice and now just consistently posts about the amount the wants for it

[Nomad]

That's what you guys constantly bring up. I just put a $1k floor on what I would offer to end that channel of debate.

I just truly admire the card, hope a few others do, and will be inspired to get theirs graded and notated through CSG.

A proven channel for error/variation grading now exists. You're welcome.

If getting the card in hand in a new case doesn't merit a thread bump, what does.

[cboog3105]

https://y.yarn.co/61891390-7b1c-4f46-bd15-bfe4ac658106_text.gif

[Nomad]

Now you on it. Pump it all up. Cards just lying scattered in boxes.