2010 Razor Rookie Retro

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2010 Razor Rookie Retro

http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu273/blowoutcards/razor.jpg

[armyatc22]

Wow this might be the best product by razor ever!!! I wonder how much it will run

[mwheeler27]

I'm going to say that it's not hard to make a product using everyone else's cards.

Not to be too much of a downer because I too think this is going to be a good product that will make many people happy, but I think it's opening the door to a whole new product idea that we might grow tired of real soon. Just think, now anyone with any kind of collection can offer it up in a packaged format. They can even go around buying up good cards to package. After all, is this really that different than all those auctions we used to see on ebay? You know, those that said something like, "I have 100 packages sealed up and ready to mail out. Included in them is a Lebron James Equisite RC Auto. Buy one, several, or all of them for your shot at this fantastic RC card!".

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I'm just afraid it will be the beginning of endless recycling of legendary cards. I hope I'm wrong. After all, maybe that's not a bad idea.

[Awaskie]

I love it. Always a fan of Razor and their releases.

AJW

AJW Sports and Collectibles items - Get great deals on Inserts, 2010 items on eBay Stores! (http://stores.ebay.com/AJW-Sports-and-Collectibles)

[Blake]

I just need to know the price

[pac213up]

I have heard approx. $250 per pack/box.

[Blake]

I have heard approx. $250 per pack/box.

I need to see a few boxes opened to justify it lol. I really want to see what the crap cards look like.

[sdbballa]

I love the Razor Products. Mantle was from Legends of the Diamond and Williams was from Sport Icons

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/SDBBALLA/img031.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/SDBBALLA/img019.jpg

[pac213up]

And interestingly one of the main draws on the sell sheet is currently listed on Ebay. Now that makes a lot of sense!

2007 Bowman Draft Chrome SUPERFRACTOR 1/1 JASON HEYWARD - eBay (item 120575977002 end time Jul-27-10 10:28:14 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/2007-Bowman-Draft-Chrome-SUPERFRACTOR-1-1-JASON-HEYWARD-/120575977002?cmd=ViewItem&pt=US_Baseball&hash=item1c12e3662a)

[cruiserdaddy7]

Wow nice post above me. Should be some further proof why this company is hard to trust. Considering them selling stuff on the side among many other things, placing a card on a sell sheet that can be currently purchased on eBay and is a 1/1 should tell us all stay FAR FAR AWAY from this product.

[mwheeler27]

And interestingly one of the main draws on the sell sheet is currently listed on Ebay. Now that makes a lot of sense!

2007 Bowman Draft Chrome SUPERFRACTOR 1/1 JASON HEYWARD - eBay (item 120575977002 end time Jul-27-10 10:28:14 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/2007-Bowman-Draft-Chrome-SUPERFRACTOR-1-1-JASON-HEYWARD-/120575977002?cmd=ViewItem&pt=US_Baseball&hash=item1c12e3662a)

Ummm...what are we missing here? Look at the subtitle. Wasn't this one of the cards he mentioned in that interview. I do believe this is one of Brian Gray's ebay accounts that was selling this card.

I see the auction has ended. Does anyone know if it was live earlier today?

[mwheeler27]

And interestingly one of the main draws on the sell sheet is currently listed on Ebay. Now that makes a lot of sense!

2007 Bowman Draft Chrome SUPERFRACTOR 1/1 JASON HEYWARD - eBay (item 120575977002 end time Jul-27-10 10:28:14 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/2007-Bowman-Draft-Chrome-SUPERFRACTOR-1-1-JASON-HEYWARD-/120575977002?cmd=ViewItem&pt=US_Baseball&hash=item1c12e3662a)

This auction ended less than 25 minutes ago! :rolleyes:

[pac213up]

Ummm...what are we missing here? Look at the subtitle. Wasn't this one of the cards he mentioned in that interview. I do believe this is one of Brian Gray's ebay accounts that was selling this card.

I see the auction has ended. Does anyone know if it was live earlier today?

Yes it was most definitely live earlier today. I think that was pulled down in the last couple of hours. Brian Gray pulled it down after people started questioning it.

[mwheeler27]

Yes it was most definitely live earlier today. I think that was pulled down in the last couple of hours. Brian Gray pulled it down after people started questioning it.

Then what would have happened had some one hit the BIN? :mad:

After the whole Inkworks/Razor episode where the best autos were being sold on ebay before the product was live, and then this, I would think people would have a hard time trusting enough to buy this product. I know I won't be buying any. My common sense is ringing loudly right now.

[pac213up]

Then what would have happened had some one hit the BIN? :mad:

After the whole Inkworks/Razor episode where the best autos were being sold on ebay before the product was live, and then this, I would think people would have a hard time trusting enough to buy this product. I know I won't be buying any. My common sense is ringing loudly right now.

I'm sure he will come up with some excuse like he always does.

[mwheeler27]

So in that video Beckett made with Brian Gray and the Strasburg Superfractor, Gray stated that he's been buying high end BGS and PSA cards for this product for the past 6 months now. So why on earth did he list the Heyward Superfractor card on ebay? In that video, at about the 6:15 mark, he stated this Heyward card would be in the product, yet he listed it on eBay. :confused:

[cruiserdaddy7]

Not only did he say it would be in there, ITS ON the stinkin sell sheet Blowout posted direct from Razor. I sent an email to Razor about it, and my guess is some other people probably did along with reading this board? I know they have an employee who reads here because he blasted me for questioning the 09 Vault when they were selling the best hits on an account. This product is a great idea, but you need a company with integrity to release it. Not sure who that would be, I bet Wheeler has a suggestion lol. Seriously though, I was kinda hyped on this product, now I wouldnt touch the junk and the word Im sure will soon spread. Id be shocked if a real non related to the company customer hits any of these top cards. Considering he is already trying to sell a card he invested in for this product, that says enough. It appears if he bought it for this product, he had NO INTENTION of putting it in the packs/boxes. Buyer beware. Would love to hear the line of trash he would come up with for this one.

[wolffer12]

After all the stuff that has been seen with Razor/Mr. Gray, one would have to be a fool to spend any money on this product. With that being said, I can bet the house that people will still buy this product.

[cruiserdaddy7]

I agree people will both buy it and be sorry they did. Kinda like getting your butt kicked twice. Initially when we bought the products years ago and couldnt hit these cards, and years later when we try again to hit these cards and they are already on eBay before it releases. I dont see how he can even deflect this blunder considering the fact he said he bought this card solely for this product yet he was trying to sell it. Amazing Mr Gray amazing.

[rambel]

That is one of Brian Gray's account. If you notice the location is Frisco which is where Razor is headquartered.

Now I have no idea why the card is listed. Maybe he's trying to get attention to the product and himself again. Hah.

[Drew]

I was assuming dealer cost was something like $200.

$200 (price of each pack) x 1794 (number of packs) = $358800 (Around how much Razor will bring in).

Assuming 80% ROI is correct. That means 358800 x 80% = $287040 (money Razor spent on cards). This is assuming we are calling value ebay prices and not beckett book value.

$358800 - $287040 = $71760 (money Razor should profit before shipping, handling, labor, packing fees, etc....)

Just for fun say $287040 is what they spent on the cards. If you take out the top 3 cards (Stras, Heyward and the Lebron) that will put it down to at elast $250000. $250000/1791 = about $140 a box return (if you don't pull one of the big 3). And if they sell for $250 a pop. You'll be losing on average $110.

We'll have alot better understanding how well everyone can fair once we see the checklist but on average probably a $110 loss?

Side Question: How many Razor Legends of the Diamonds packs were made? I notice that unopened boxes are drying up and, as mentioned before, still no 1952 Mantle.

[Zerokruel]

The Razor Legends of the Diamonds and the Rookie Retro product were purchased pretty much along the same time. Give certain cards could not be obtained till a later date, Mr. Gray has been buying up BGS & PSA cards for a while now. Anyone who has been at the shows here in CA and the biggers shows across the US has probably seen him there. He spent a pretty penny on the RLD product, and while trying to buy in bulk most of the time - it didn't always happen.

[Brad]

Assuming 80% ROI is correct. That means 358800 x 80% = $287040 (money Razor spent on cards). This is assuming we are calling value ebay prices and not beckett book value.

$358800 - $287040 = $71760 (money Razor should profit before shipping, handling, labor, packing fees, etc....)

Those numbers aren't correct for an 80% ROI. You are looking at costs of around $200k with an 80% return ($160k) to get up to the $360k you figured as what they'll take in on this stuff. Unless you used the term ROI when you meant something else.

[cruiserdaddy7]

I can only imagine how high the profit numbers will go when you pull out the top cards everyone is chasing. Stash aside the Stras, Heyward, Bron, Crosby etc and the money starts piling up. I again cant see any possible excuse as to why he was selling that Heyward since it was intended for this product. Seems way too shady. Also as mentioned before, looks like nobody hit the big card from his last product either. What a joke.

[SCR]

I have one wholesaler doing it for $216 - $225 depending on how much you buy.

My guess is the hobby price will be around $250


Who knows why the Heyward was on eBay and on the sell sheet/mentioned in an interview. Hopefully collectors get some good stuff for the money!

[mwheeler27]

I say buy this product while you can if it's something you're interested in because this concept won't be around long. I sincerely doubt it's 100% legal.

Just think, this kind of thing can pop up everywhere if it's allowed. I might as well go out and buy a bunch of collectible coins, and a hand full of very rare, very expensive ones, package them all up, and sell to people as a grab bag style offering, making myself an unlimited amount of cash. That's what this Razor Rookie Retro product is, and if/when the Attorney Generals catch wind of it, it will no longer be available.

This is not a new concept, it's just a relatively new concept for a card company to do it. Programs like this have been shut down many times. He might get away with this one, but sometime in the future, this will cease.

[MasterOfTheDark]

I say buy this product while you can if it's something you're interested in because this concept won't be around long. I sincerely doubt it's 100% legal.

Just think, this kind of thing can pop up everywhere if it's allowed. I might as well go out and buy a bunch of collectible coins, and a hand full of very rare, very expensive ones, package them all up, and sell to people as a grab bag style offering, making myself an unlimited amount of cash. That's what this Razor Rookie Retro product is, and if/when the Attorney Generals catch wind of it, it will no longer be available.

This is not a new concept, it's just a relatively new concept for a card company to do it. Programs like this have been shut down many times. He might get away with this one, but sometime in the future, this will cease.

Just curious, but under what laws would something like this be shut down? A person (or company) owns the cards they are selling, just because it is unknown which cards are in which packages, that doesn't make it illegal. It's exactly what the card companies do, especially with the cards that are 1 in multi case hits, or the cards that are 1 per case. You don't know which box or case those particular cards are in (and those of course are the big hits - $$$), so what's the difference here? Not arguing or anything, simply asking because I know of no laws that would make something like this illegal. I'm not a lawyer though, so basically I'm just searching for information and trying to learn something here.:)

[mwheeler27]

Just curious, but under what laws would something like this be shut down? A person (or company) owns the cards they are selling, just because it is unknown which cards are in which packages, that doesn't make it illegal. It's exactly what the card companies do, especially with the cards that are 1 in multi case hits, or the cards that are 1 per case. You don't know which box or case those particular cards are in (and those of course are the big hits - $$$), so what's the difference here? Not arguing or anything, simply asking because I know of no laws that would make something like this illegal. I'm not a lawyer though, so basically I'm just searching for information and trying to learn something here.:)

No problem at all. I'm no lawyer either.

You asked what's the difference between this and what other card companies do...

Other card companies actually make their own cards and sell them in every pack. There's nothing wrong with making a product and selling it. However, have you noticed how these card companies allow you to send in for insert cards through the mail for free? They have to do this to accommodate the anti-gambling laws. Many places frown upon you "having" to spend money on a shot at getting something of value other than what's in every pack. Now notice how this Razor Retro product has no cards made by Razor in each pack. Notice how there is no mail-in offer for free "insert cards".

Trust me, what Razor is doing is vastly different than what other card companies are doing, and it's my opinion that a product like this will not be on the market in the years to come. Again, it's just an opinion. I am not a lawyer. It just makes sense to me, that's all.

[hmmdecloth]

I believe Razor is a California based company? Below is the california gaming code pertaining to trading cards. I'm not a lawyer, but I would think if it could be proven that the advertised hits are not in circulation, it could mean big federal trouble for the copmany.

Penal Code Sec.319.

A lottery is any scheme for the disposal or distribution of property by chance, among persons who have paid or promised to pay any valuable consideration for the chance of obtaining such property or a portion of it, or for any share or any interest in such property, upon any agreement, understanding, or expectation that it is to be distributed or disposed of by lot or chance, whether called a lottery, raffle, or gift enterprise, or by whatever name the same may be known.

Penal Code Sec. 319.3.

319.3. (a) In addition to Section 319, a lottery also shall include a grab bag game which is a scheme whereby, for the disposal or distribution of sports trading cards by chance, a person pays valuable consideration to purchase a sports trading card grab bag with the understanding that the purchaser has a chance to win a designated prize or prizes listed by the seller as being contained in one or more, but not all, of the grab bags.

(b) For purposes of this section, the following definitions shall apply:

(1) "Sports trading card grab bag " means a sealed package which contains one or more sports trading cards that have been removed from the manufacturer's original packaging. A "sports trading card grab bag" does not include a sweepstakes, or procedure for the distribution of any sports trading card of value by lot or by chance, which is not unlawful under other provisions of law.

(2) "Sports trading card " means any card produced for use in commerce that contains a company name or logo, or both, and an image, representation, or facsimile of one or more players or other team member or members in any pose, and that is produced pursuant to an appropriate licensing agreement.

[MasterOfTheDark]

No problem at all. I'm no lawyer either.

You asked what's the difference between this and what other card companies do...

Other card companies actually make their own cards and sell them in every pack. There's nothing wrong with making a product and selling it. However, have you noticed how these card companies allow you to send in for insert cards through the mail for free? They have to do this to accommodate the anti-gambling laws. Many places frown upon you "having" to spend money on a shot at getting something of value other than what's in every pack. Now notice how this Razor Retro product has no cards made by Razor in each pack. Notice how there is no mail-in offer for free "insert cards".

Trust me, what Razor is doing is vastly different than what other card companies are doing, and it's my opinion that a product like this will not be on the market in the years to come. Again, it's just an opinion. I am not a lawyer. It just makes sense to me, that's all.

Thanks!:)!

To counter-discuss though, you mentioned the "print and sell" not being illegal, but there's nothing illegal about buying a product and reselling it either, which is what Razor is doing (not defending them of course, just talking).

True and good point about the wrapper redemption program. Curious to know if Razor (or any company that does something like this) is subject to those same terms since it is simply a resale of a product and not an original print run.

True, what Razor is doing is different from the original print run, but I just don't see how reselling a product is illegal. There's the obvious as far as alcohol, tobacco, and firearms due to the seller rules and laws, but trading cards? I just don't see it here.

Maybe something will come of this though and the law will either shut it down (confirming it is illegal), or ignore it (confirming it is legal), and then we'll know for sure.:D Heck, someone posted in this thread that someone from Razor reads the forums, maybe they can give us an answer? Oddly enough, I live pretty darn close to them. Didn't realize they were right here until I saw this thread. Or if there are any lawyers out there?:D

[mwheeler27]

but there's nothing illegal about buying a product and reselling it either, which is what Razor is doing (not defending them of course, just talking).

No, this is not what they are doing.

It's not simply buying and reselling. What Razor is doing is buying, repackaging, and then selling without you knowing what you're buying. They are telling you that you could hit something big, which is true, but in reality, the majority of people won't make back their money spent. Therefore, this is a form of gambling, not simply buying and re-selling.

Hopefully this clears it up a little better.

[cruiserdaddy7]

So are you saying all of the things at Target and Wal Mart with random hits etc of cards made by other companies is illegal? They show me pictures of good cards that I can get but I dont. Its basically the same concept. The Razor vault products had boxes inside from Topps, Inkworks, Artbox, Rittenhouse etc etc etc. They said I could get Twilight but I never did. 09 Vault has been over a year and Gray isnt in the pen yet. I agree if the hits arent in there then he has some issues. With the track record of his company would any of us be surprised? People who buy this product are asking to get burnt considering one of his main cards he was already trying to sell lol.

[MasterOfTheDark]

No, this is not what they are doing.

It's not simply buying and reselling. What Razor is doing is buying, repackaging, and then selling without you knowing what you're buying. They are telling you that you could hit something big, which is true, but in reality, the majority of people won't make back their money spent. Therefore, this is a form of gambling, not simply buying and re-selling.

Hopefully this clears it up a little better.

*Shrug*

You don't know what you are getting with any sealed box of cards.

Granted, courts love to throw around the term "gambling" when it doesn't apply (like buying cards, playing poker, etc), so they may rule that way but they really shouldn't.

[MasterOfTheDark]

Curious, do the "Famous Fabrics" releases have wrapper redemptions? If not, how do they get around the "gambling" stuff? If yes, do any releases not have redemptions (Sportskings, the autographed tennis balls, anything?), and if so, how are they getting around the "gambling" aspect?

[mwheeler27]

Brian Gray with Razor recently announced this:

1> 2010 RAZOR ROOKIE RETRO
This product is being met with tremendous excitement and considerable interest. We are rapidly approaching sold out status. In addition to the graded card per box, each and every box will contain a 2010 Razor signed card never before released of one of our exclusive players!!!

I knew he'd have to do something to make this more legal. ;)

[oldgoldy97]

Great idea, Razor. I think I'll start grading all of my cards and selling them in pack form for $200 a pop. Why waste time putting the actual cards on ebay?

[armyatc22]

im preordering a case of this!! i cant wait to hit some donk rookie!! NICE

[Blake]

im preordering a case of this!! i cant wait to hit some donk rookie!! NICE

You better get it now while it's on special! I just bought one of the 2 they have.

[tristan20]

So I placed my order two days ago at $1389, now I see BLOWOUT has the cases on sale for $1350?, wtf I want a $39 refund

[cruiserdaddy7]

Heck with $39. Why are people buying this after seeing the owner with one of the cards FROM THE SELL SHEET still for sale on eBay AFTER the sheet was released. Do we really think these cards will make it in the product? Has anyone seen the top card supposedly in Legends of the Diamond? The top cut in Razor Poker? I could go on and on but wont. This product would be cool if the company producing it had an ounce of integrity.

[mma138]

we will have to wait and see.

[Blake]

There's no way that the Strasburg won't be pulled. There's only 1800 boxes of this stuff being made, so it has to be pulled.

[MikeDtonation]

The card you posted earlier that was on Ebay was for sell before the whole Razor Rookie Retro concept and they forgot to pull it from Ebay. I think I read this on FCB.

I have been all over the web for that Stu Ungar Cut and haven't heard of it. I opened myself several cases without luck. With only 299 cases of 12 boxes it might be out somewhere in a PC. Maybe still packed? I would not start telling it never made it to the packs tough. If you compare to the 2007 Poker release I would say hits were in the packs. Not in 2007. I think I have seen enough of 2007 case cracking to say they weren't packed, but in 2010 it's different.

I honestly think you would need a bunch of lawers to determine if what Razor is doing is against the law. Might be different from one state to another, same thing from a country to another. I'm no lawyers neither, but I don't see how it is different from other card product up on the market. Cards are lotery period. Stop hidding behind wrappers and redemption. When I buy a box I'm putting at risk a certain amount of money hoping for the big hit. I have no idea where I will end up in return.

When I'm buying a chocolate bar, I know what I will get and how much it's costing me. Cards are different and I don't believe they could established in court enough difference between Razor activities and other cards companies to shut down this type of product.

Of course I might be wrong, but I know one thing for sure, Razor ran a legal background check on this prior to release. The addition of some of their own "exclusive" cards are probably the conlusion from their legal advice they get.

Like it or not, Razor is moving the water in this hobby swamp. I think at the end they will bring up something good to the hobby. One thing for sure, since this hobby is acting like a casino does, they should be ruled by the same intergrity process. Maybe that's what Razor will bring, integrity reinforcement in the hobby.

*sorry for my english. 1st language is french.

[cruiserdaddy7]

Did they forget they had an ebay name with a ton of stuff listed that they stated was in Razor vault? Were they mistaken by producing a 3k a pack product with a TON of fake autographs in it? Do yourself a favor and dont argue for this company when it comes to integrity.

[armyatc22]

You better get it now while it's on special! I just bought one of the 2 they have.

i ordered as soon as i saw it had a price...my case is now paid in full after a few payments came in so now im ready to bust.........a month from now

[MikeDtonation]

Did they forget they had an ebay name with a ton of stuff listed that they stated was in Razor vault? Were they mistaken by producing a 3k a pack product with a TON of fake autographs in it? Do yourself a favor and dont argue for this company when it comes to integrity.

lol. Ton of fake auto in a 99 packs production? One or 2 were identified suspicious and Razor contacted the owners to solve the issue pretty fast.
Try to find 99 cut autos like they did to produce this product with 98% of them being genuine. Second Razor were not selling those packs 3K$/pack, resellers were on ebay since the product was in high demand and rare.

Please do yourself a favor and stop spreading false informations when you just don't know what you are talking about.

[mma138]

beckett will pull the strasburg in there box break .

[cruiserdaddy7]

Its good to see Razor has a fan on this site. You are one of the few I can tell you. And you say false information? Lets start with the presidential series. For such a high SELLING product, wouldnt you think this reputable company would have put AUTHENTIC signatures in it? You are excusing a manufacturer for placing fake autographs in a product now?
Next lets go to Razor Vault. This company has an eBay name where they are selling many of the hits pictured on the box? Once people catch on then they stop! Doesnt seem a little shady to you?
Lets head now to this little Rookie Retro product. Hmmm, Gray says on video he has spent months buying the cards for THIS PRODUCT. He then releases a sell sheet with the picture of a Jason Heyward Superfractor. Then in yet another eBay debacle, Gray has the darn card LISTED ON EBAY for sale. A mistake? Well yes, since he got caught lol. If it were truly meant for this product, why would he even be selling it?
The track record here speaks for itself. You can defend them, but you will have a hard time doing it. Everything I have written is completely FACTUAL. Have we seen the top pulls from Razor poker or legends of the diamond yet? No, but I guess they could still be out there. Kinda odd neither product has produced the big monster hit. We could get into the rumblings about UD owning this company and backing them financially, but Ill save that for later. Your making look foolish defending this joke of a company. Heck, they cant even product their own cards that sell. Lets make products of other companies cards, advertise hits that nobody pulls, and sell them to crazy people dumb enough to buy them. I guess Brian Gray is smart on that note.

[MikeDtonation]

Its good to see Razor has a fan on this site. You are one of the few I can tell you. And you say false information? Lets start with the presidential series. For such a high SELLING product, wouldnt you think this reputable company would have put AUTHENTIC signatures in it? You are excusing a manufacturer for placing fake autographs in a product now?
Next lets go to Razor Vault. This company has an eBay name where they are selling many of the hits pictured on the box? Once people catch on then they stop! Doesnt seem a little shady to you?
Lets head now to this little Rookie Retro product. Hmmm, Gray says on video he has spent months buying the cards for THIS PRODUCT. He then releases a sell sheet with the picture of a Jason Heyward Superfractor. Then in yet another eBay debacle, Gray has the darn card LISTED ON EBAY for sale. A mistake? Well yes, since he got caught lol. If it were truly meant for this product, why would he even be selling it?
The track record here speaks for itself. You can defend them, but you will have a hard time doing it. Everything I have written is completely FACTUAL. Have we seen the top pulls from Razor poker or legends of the diamond yet? No, but I guess they could still be out there. Kinda odd neither product has produced the big monster hit. We could get into the rumblings about UD owning this company and backing them financially, but Ill save that for later. Your making look foolish defending this joke of a company. Heck, they cant even product their own cards that sell. Lets make products of other companies cards, advertise hits that nobody pulls, and sell them to crazy people dumb enough to buy them. I guess Brian Gray is smart on that note.

True we saw all the Razor Poker hits being pulled. Except the Stu Ungar cut. It's a 1/1 why do you think you will see it. What don't you understand in the 1/1 concept. If I grab it and put it in my PC, you will never see it. It might pop-up in 30 years when the guy that own it dies.

It's not a surprise to me that you don't understand this simple thing.

It's not that "joke" of a company that made me laugh, it's more people like you who will never try to do something by themselves and laughing at people that does. That's making me laugh.

Another question I'm asking to myself is why do you think you can tell him how to run his business? Where are your shares in this joke of company?

Give me a break with your "FACTS". You know what, I heard you killed your brother on the Internet. I know it's true because it was posted on a forum by someone I don't know and hidding behind a nickname! I'll bring this FACT to the court with me against you.

And by the way I don't care being the only Razor fan in the whole world, I know you are not able to stand alone with your opinions, but that's not my case. I don't need to bash Razor to make myself friends on the forums.

[cruiserdaddy7]

What friend am I trying to make on this board?

FACT: Razor had an account on ebay selling hits that were in the Vault products on the side.

FACT: There were fake autographs in the Presidential series made by Brian Gray

FACT: Brian Gray was selling the Heyward Superfractor AFTER the sell sheet was out for the product it was to be placed in.

FACT: Brain Gray said he had bought it for the product, not to sell on ebay.

Those are FACTS not opinions. I havent told him how to run his business. He is soliciting information to dealers and collectors stating certain cards are in there WHILE HE HAS THEM FOR SALE. He solicited a product to us with fake autographs in it for thousands of dollars a pack.
Enough said.

[damafuka]

This product seems a little suspect.

[Blake]

This product seems a little suspect.

Thank you for your input. It certainly MUST have taken you a very, very long time to think of this in-depth analysis of the product.

[cruiserdaddy7]

Was thinking the same thing when I saw this old topic come back up. I was thinking maybe someone had something insightful to say and instead this. Oh well.

[mindbinge]

lawlz....epic.

[solt0131]

Just like Legends of the Diamond - 90% of the time your pack will lose money and the other 10% will yield a big banger. It's the ultimate break of bust product.

[armyatc22]

comes out this week..i hope my gamble paid off!!!

[Blake]

Did Brian Gray ever put out the checklist like he said he would (he claimed this on FCB)?

[Watt]

I emailed a Leaf CS rep earlier and got this...

Good Afternoon Watt –

Rookie Retro is set to release before the end of the month, so within about two weeks. There will be a checklist, and it will be posted on Leaf Trading Cards (http://www.leaftradingcards.com)



Have a great day.

So even though it's under the Razor name it's going on the Leaf site. Hopefully the checklist is soon.

[mightbe]

Did Brian Gray ever put out the checklist like he said he would (he claimed this on FCB)?

Is it true he had the Strasburg on display (at the National I assume) surrounded by $100 bills?

[cruiserdaddy7]

Seems like they would have gotten this completed and packaged quickly considering he was still buying cards for it very recently. We sure its coming out this week?

[LEAF]

Seems like they would have gotten this completed and packaged quickly considering he was still buying cards for it very recently. We sure its coming out this week?

It ships from our warehouse this Friday. It will be available nationwide next week. Plus, Checklist will be up on Leaf Trading Cards (http://www.leaftradingcards.com) tommorrow!

Brian/Leaf

[Zerokruel]

It ships from our warehouse this Friday. It will be available nationwide next week. Plus, Checklist will be up on Leaf Trading Cards (http://www.leaftradingcards.com) tommorrow!

Brian/Leaf

I'm just going to be honest. I see you on the boards bumping your product, which is fantastic - but how about answering a couple questions and concerns?

[cruiserdaddy7]

WHOA!! Dont ask him that question. I have already received a message with a threatening tone for "libelous and misleading" comments. You obviously shouldnt be asking about his products, asking why products have been on sale(when the packaged product was announced-Jason Heyward) or why certain people have or havent pulled hits.

[mwheeler27]

I'm just going to be honest. I see you on the boards bumping your product, which is fantastic - but how about answering a couple questions and concerns?

Wasn't his post above in direct response to questions that have been asked?

[mwheeler27]

I think it's great we have another card company owner in this forum. I hope we don't run him off.

How about we try "constructive criticism" for a while and see where it gets us.

[Zerokruel]

Wasn't his post above in direct response to questions that have been asked?

No, it was not. I'm also not going to go through this thread and find all the questions that were raised about this product for yourself of Brian (sounds familiar huh?). They were valid points about this product and certain cards in this product brought up.

I am in no way trying to run anyone off, it was a simple question.

[Zerokruel]

And interestingly one of the main draws on the sell sheet is currently listed on Ebay. Now that makes a lot of sense!

2007 Bowman Draft Chrome SUPERFRACTOR 1/1 JASON HEYWARD - eBay (item 120575977002 end time Jul-27-10 10:28:14 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/2007-Bowman-Draft-Chrome-SUPERFRACTOR-1-1-JASON-HEYWARD-/120575977002?cmd=ViewItem&pt=US_Baseball&hash=item1c12e3662a)

Then what would have happened had some one hit the BIN? :mad:

After the whole Inkworks/Razor episode where the best autos were being sold on ebay before the product was live, and then this, I would think people would have a hard time trusting enough to buy this product. I know I won't be buying any. My common sense is ringing loudly right now.

So in that video Beckett made with Brian Gray and the Strasburg Superfractor, Gray stated that he's been buying high end BGS and PSA cards for this product for the past 6 months now. So why on earth did he list the Heyward Superfractor card on ebay? In that video, at about the 6:15 mark, he stated this Heyward card would be in the product, yet he listed it on eBay. :confused:


So what would have happened if someone hit that BIN? That's a good question to ask! Would this card still have made it into the product?

[CaptainBOHICA]

this thread has "epic" written all over it.

Im subscribing to it.

[mgugs46]

Yeah, I mean I was interested in busting some of this - but, seeing as how cards that are supposed to be some of the premier hits are also being auctioned off on ebay seems more than a tad shady to me.

[mwheeler27]

No, it was not.

Why not? He quoted the question he answered, didn't he? :confused: Of course there are other questions he could answer, but at least he's here answering some, even if it's only one to start with. I see that as something positive.

And I wasn't implying you or anyone else is trying to run him off.

[mnvikingstwins]

Somebody needs to start a poll of where the Strasburg will show up

A- Pulled in Asia
B- Pulled in Beckett's box
C- Pulled in US and sold
D- Auctioned by Leaf
E- Never surfaces

[Zerokruel]

Why not? He quoted the question he answered, didn't he? :confused: Of course there are other questions he could answer, but at least he's here answering some, even if it's only one to start with. I see that as something positive.

And I wasn't implying you or anyone else is trying to run him off.

Where not going to play this game right now, I honestly don't feel like it today - maybe tomorrow.

I'm also not going to give someone that "at least" card when there have been some very important questions raised about this product that is going to be released. How about you stand by your comments and ask these questions? Do you only want your voice heard when it comes to Sportkings?

[CaptainBOHICA]

cmon guys. dont run him off this board like you have with card company owners whoshallremainnameless.

[mwheeler27]

Where not going to play this game right now, I honestly don't feel like it today - maybe tomorrow.

I'm also not going to give someone that "at least" card when there have been some very important questions raised about this product that is going to be released. How about you stand by your comments and ask these questions? Do you only want your voice heard when it comes to Sportkings?

So if "we're not going to play this game right now", why are you continuing on? Is it for the same reason you stated you weren't going to find other questions in this thread, yet you went ahead and searched for and posted a few anyway? :rolleyes:

I have already been given answers to my questions. Believe me, my voice has been heard. Has yours?

[Zerokruel]

So if "we're not going to play this game right now", why are you continuing on? Is it for the same reason you stated you weren't going to find other questions in this thread, yet you went ahead and searched for and posted a few anyway? :rolleyes:

I have already been given answers to my questions. Believe me, my voice has been heard. Has yours?

Actually, I will be honest with you Matt. You always preach about looking for a compnay that does everythign right, and no redmeptions and quality. There was somethin seriously messed up here with cards being auctioned off, yet they were appearing on a sell sheet. I think I was almost counting on you to hold your ground with those same emotions and opinions here. But for someone reason, I feel let down. I seriously though you would fight for the same things you always fight for, but you didn't. I can honestly say, that I'm dissapointed - I think I was actually counting on you this time.

[CaptainBOHICA]

maybe if the product was called, "sportkings rookie retro" he wouldn't have let you down B.

[mwheeler27]

Actually, I will be honest with you Matt. You always preach about looking for a compnay that does everythign right, and no redmeptions and quality. There was somethin seriously messed up here with cards being auctioned off, yet they were appearing on a sell sheet. I think I was almost counting on you to hold your ground with those same emotions and opinions here. But for someone reason, I feel let down. I seriously though you would fight for the same things you always fight for, but you didn't. I can honestly say, that I'm dissapointed - I think I was actually counting on you this time.

I hope you're always honest with me Byron. I'll always be honest with you.

Do you honestly think I give a darn if you're disappointed in me or not? Seriously?

Like I said, my questions have been answered. I'm not buying this product. I don't see the need to speak negatively about it any more. I think Brian is going to do a better job in the future of not making these mistakes. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but it's never going to mean I care if you or anyone else in this forum is disappointed in me or not. :rolleyes:

I sincerely hope you don't honestly think I care about stuff like that. I don't need others' approval for anything I do or say.

[Zerokruel]

I hope you're always honest with me Byron. I'll always be honest with you.

Do you honestly think I give a darn if you're disappointed in me or not? Seriously?

Like I said, my questions have been answered. I'm not buying this product. I don't see the need to speak negatively about it any more. I think Brian is going to do a better job in the future of not making these mistakes. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but it's never going to mean I care if you or anyone else in this forum is disappointed in me or not. :rolleyes:

I sincerely hope you don't honestly think I care about stuff like that. I don't need others' approval for anything I do or say.

Man, it sure is nice when someone shows their true colors.

Just amazing.

[cruiserdaddy7]

So if "we're not going to play this game right now", why are you continuing on? Is it for the same reason you stated you weren't going to find other questions in this thread, yet you went ahead and searched for and posted a few anyway? :rolleyes:

I have already been given answers to my questions. Believe me, my voice has been heard. Has yours?

Brian Gray has the chance in open forum to answer this, and how about YOU Wheeler since you defend company owners who come in here to both insult and threaten collectors.
Question:
I saw the sell sheet for Rookie Retro and ordered 2 cases. The sell sheet pictured a Jason Heyward 1/1 card, yet the same card is listed under your eBay name. Someone purchased this card, so its no longer is the product. You said on video with Beckett you have been buying these cards for the purpose of the rookie retro product. Why was it FOR SALE once the sheet was released?

No we do know someone DID NOT purchase it, but what if they did? Then what happens with the product and sell sheet info? Brian Gray did tell me in PM that it was a mistake, and thats fine it happens I guess.
My question is: Why say on video your buying it for the product yet its been for sale by you on eBay?
I think we are entitled to ask these questions am I wrong?
Im hoping Wheeler will stay off this topic completely as it seems the recent products he has endorsed are dropping by the week. Hopefully his thoughts and posts will not taint people on more products. As I see it, Wheeler is hurting public opinion on Sportkings products with his rants far worse than any of these questions regarding rookie retro.
Ill say it again. If done right, Rookie Retro could be a great product with HUGE potential. Its a great idea. Alot of other ideas could be done as well. How about a product with past high dollar wax/hobby boxes in it randomized. Lots of places to go with Brian Grays ideas and company, and I hope they are done right.

[mwheeler27]

Where not going to play this game right now, I honestly don't feel like it today - maybe tomorrow.

Is it tomorrow already? ;)

Man, it sure is nice when someone shows their true colors.

Just amazing.

LOL...Byron. So you're saying you need approval for what you do and say? Are you saying that you try hard to not disappoint others when posting in forums?

[Zerokruel]

Is it tomorrow already? ;)



LOL...Byron. So you're saying you need approval for what you do and say? Are you saying that you try hard to not disappoint others when posting in forums?

Matt, when topps put seats in the Tribute cards as relics are UD did fake Yugi O cards - you were all up in it. Right now, we have someone here and we could ask him what would have happened. Some valid questions could be asked. Some wrongs things happened. Some very wrong things - but I don't see you doing what you normally do.

I'm just dissapointed you didn't treat Razor/leaf with the same regards you would treat other companies.

[mwheeler27]

Im hoping Wheeler will stay off this topic completely as it seems the recent products he has endorsed are dropping by the week. Hopefully his thoughts and posts will not taint people on more products. As I see it, Wheeler is hurting public opinion on Sportkings products with his rants far worse than any of these questions regarding rookie retro.

Let's see...

- I did not endorse Bowman baseball, yet it's been dropping since the end of July.
- I did not endorse Allen & Ginter, yet it's been dropping the last two weeks.
- I did not endorse Topps Chroms, yet it's been steadily dropping since the first week of July.
- I did not endorse Topps Finest, yet it's dropped over 10% since July 1st.
- The last time Heritage climbed in price was the first week in May, and has since declined in price. I did not endorse this product either.

The fact is that I could go on and on and on about products that I don't talk about that have dropped in value and continue to drop in value. More people have opened Sportkings because I am making them aware of the product than those that are turned off by me. Again, even CBO bought SK this year. :eek:

Cruiserdaddy, if you're going to make posts like this, you should at least tell the whole story. :rolleyes:

[mnvikingstwins]

Hardly any products go up in value unless they're the really old boxes, so not really a valid criticism

[mwheeler27]

Matt, when topps put seats in the Tribute cards as relics are UD did fake Yugi O cards - you were all up in it. Right now, we have someone here and we could ask him what would have happened. Some valid questions could be asked. Some wrongs things happened. Some very wrong things - but I don't see you doing what you normally do.

I'm just dissapointed you didn't treat Razor/leaf with the same regards you would treat other companies.

What on earth are you talking about Byron? Did you not quote me when I commented on some of the questionable things Razor did?

This is the 3rd time I'm going to say it...My questions have been answered regarding Razor and Brian Gray. Upper deck and Topps have not answered anything to my satisfaction that would make me want to buy their products. In fact, I'm not confident they're ever going to stop what they've done in the past. I hope they do, but I don't have that "all warm inside" feeling about them.

It's almost as if you're disappointed that I'm not going into battle with you or something. I fight battles all the time by myself. Do you really need my help? Is that why you're disappointed? It sure sounds that way to me.

[mwheeler27]

Hardly any products go up in value unless they're the really old boxes, so not really a valid criticism

Thank you! Very little cruiserdaddy says in regards to me is "valid". ;)

[Zerokruel]

What on earth are you talking about Byron? Did you not quote me when I commented on some of the questionable things Razor did?

This is the 3rd time I'm going to say it...My questions have been answered regarding Razor and Brian Gray. Upper deck and Topps have not answered anything to my satisfaction that would make me want to buy their products. In fact, I'm not confident they're ever going to stop what they've done in the past. I hope they do, but I don't have that "all warm inside" feeling about them.

It's almost as if you're disappointed that I'm not going into battle with you or something. I fight battles all the time by myself. Do you really need my help? Is that why you're disappointed? It sure sounds that way to me.


I never got the answer. What would have happened if the card was sold?

I don't need you to stand by my side and fight any battle. However, I would like to see you stand up and say the same thing right now you said before about ever other compnay who has done wrong to the people. Not just cherry pick who ever you feel like. You received an answer that satisfied you, and I guess that was enough for you. My problem is, that Razor has sold a lot of item on Ebay in the past - while marketing that same item (their Vault line). It was a repeat offense and they didn't learn the first time. Yet, everything is fine and dandy with you because you got a satisfactory answer. How does that saying go? "Hurt me once, shame on you. Hurt me twice, shame on me." I think the saying applies here witeh Razor.

[mwheeler27]

I never got the answer. What would have happened if the card was sold?

I don't need you to stand by my side and fight any battle. However, I would like to see you stand up and say the same thing right now you said before about ever other compnay who has done wrong to the people. Not just cherry pick who ever you feel like. You received an answer that satisfied you, and I guess that was enough for you. My problem is, that Razor has sold a lot of item on Ebay in the past - while marketing that same item (their Vault line). It was a repeat offense and they didn't learn the first time. Yet, everything is fine and dandy with you because you got a satisfactory answer. How does that saying go? "Hurt me once, shame on you. Hurt me twice, shame on me." I think the saying applies here witeh Razor.

Byron, your beef is between you and Razor right now. I have nothing to do with it anymore. Why would I continue to bash something after I have been satisfied?

Why again are you disappointed in me? Is it because you'd like me on your side with your stance? It's honestly the only thing that's making sense at the moment.

[Zerokruel]

Byron, your beef is between you and Razor right now. I have nothing to do with it anymore. Why would I continue to bash something after I have been satisfied?

Why again are you disappointed in me? Is it because you'd like me on your side with your stance? It's honestly the only thing that's making sense at the moment.

Matt, that is not it at all. Just forget it.

[mwheeler27]

Matt, that is not it at all. Just forget it.

Alright. It's forgotten.

Friends again? :)

[LEAF]

So what would have happened if someone hit that BIN? That's a good question to ask! Would this card still have made it into the product?

Yes, we would have had to cancel the ebay transaction.
It was an honest oversight. Fortunately, that event did not occur and the harm was limited to conspiracy theories.

Rest assured, every big hit goes in the product and I think this website's (blowoutcards.com) owners have first hand knowledge of some of the crazy cards that have been pulled from our products.
BG

[Zerokruel]

Yes, we would have had to cancel the ebay transaction.
It was an honest oversight. Fortunately, that event did not occur and the harm was limited to conspiracy theories.

Rest assured, every big hit goes in the product and I think this website's (blowoutcards.com) owners have first hand knowledge of some of the crazy cards that have been pulled from our products.
BG

Thank you for the answer. No BS, I appreciate it.

[mwheeler27]

Thank you for the answer. No BS, I appreciate it.

I appreciated the same answer, yet you raked me over the coals for it. :rolleyes:

[Zerokruel]

I appreciated the same answer, yet you raked me over the coals for it. :rolleyes:

LOL. I never saw him answer that here. :confused: I think I even asked for the answer (mayeb not?). But you wouldn't be one to share it, you would want me to find it on my own, huh? :cool:

[mwheeler27]

LOL. I never saw him answer that here. :confused: I think I even asked for the answer (mayeb not?). But you wouldn't be one to share it, you would want me to find it on my own, huh? :cool:

Brian was here and could answer it for himself.

What people need to slow down on doing is jumping to conclusions and attacking members without knowing all the facts. You said yourself that you were satisfied with his answer. I was given the exact same answer, and thus no longer felt the need to discuss the product negatively. (I even stated so at least 3 times). You were "disappointed" in me for "not holding my ground", but I didn't need to, and you didn't want to believe me.

Hopefully from this moment forward, you will understand me a little better. ;)

[Andrew Jones]

Yes, we would have had to cancel the ebay transaction.
It was an honest oversight. Fortunately, that event did not occur and the harm was limited to conspiracy theories.

Rest assured, every big hit goes in the product and I think this website's (blowoutcards.com) owners have first hand knowledge of some of the crazy cards that have been pulled from our products.
BG

I think this is missing the following major *(except for Razor Vault because we sold many of the big hits on eBay instead of putting them into that product).

[cruiserdaddy7]

Let's see...

- I did not endorse Bowman baseball, yet it's been dropping since the end of July.
- I did not endorse Allen & Ginter, yet it's been dropping the last two weeks.
- I did not endorse Topps Chroms, yet it's been steadily dropping since the first week of July.
- I did not endorse Topps Finest, yet it's dropped over 10% since July 1st.
- The last time Heritage climbed in price was the first week in May, and has since declined in price. I did not endorse this product either.

The fact is that I could go on and on and on about products that I don't talk about that have dropped in value and continue to drop in value. More people have opened Sportkings because I am making them aware of the product than those that are turned off by me. Again, even CBO bought SK this year. :eek:

Cruiserdaddy, if you're going to make posts like this, you should at least tell the whole story. :rolleyes:

One difference here, and thats the products you mention above are above COST. Ringside boxing, how low can it go? Sportkings, down to $60 maybe? $50? As I have been saying no value in this stuff, and people are turned off by your obsession with it and blindness to reality when it comes to anything Sportkings.

[mwheeler27]

One difference here, and thats the products you mention above are above COST. Ringside boxing, how low can it go? Sportkings, down to $60 maybe? $50? As I have been saying no value in this stuff, and people are turned off by your obsession with it and blindness to reality when it comes to anything Sportkings.

We will see who's right in the end. I'm quite certain you'll be long gone not wanting to face "reality" when this all plays out in the near to mid future. :)!

[cruiserdaddy7]

If you wind up being correct and your Sportkings products rise, please rub it in my face. I do recall saying Ringside would be a dud, sure was right there. How long are we supposed to wait before you admit I was correct?

[mwheeler27]

If you wind up being correct and your Sportkings products rise, please rub it in my face. I do recall saying Ringside would be a dud, sure was right there. How long are we supposed to wait before you admit I was correct?

The question isn't "if". It's "when". And this pertains to both products.

[mmbtvs]

I have to be honest and admit here that I would not have ever opened ringside boxing, or Sport Kings if mwheeler27 did not talk so fondly of the products. Their ITG products however I would have opened irregardless.

[armyatc22]

Looks like this got pushed back a week EPIC LOSS

I just hope my pre order case gets here the day it releases cause I would have no reason to open it if the "holy Grail" of cards was already pulled and on eBay

[cruiserdaddy7]

As long as you hit something on that sell (sheet) you will be more than fine. Anyone venture to guess what the Strasburg would bring this time around?

[cruiserdaddy7]

Why did my post with sell s-h-e-e-t get censored?
Anyways, anyone been able to find that checklist yet? Ive checked and dont see anything.

[armyatc22]

The Stras won't bring as much as the last few times but I'm guessing Near the 10k mark aka enough to finish paying off my car :)

[boxbreaker88]

If I had a case I would wait to see a few busts and hope none of the big hits are pulled

[mnvikingstwins]

Sell sheet isn't opening for me

[MikeDtonation]

http://www.leaftradingcards.com/docs/2010_razor_rookie_retro_checklist-54.pdf

[MikeB]

Some nice names on the list but do I really want a John Lester encased card? :rolleyes:

[mgugs46]

I do. If its a 9.5 or 10 rookie auto. Not at 200+ a box though!

[solt0131]

As long as you hit something on that sell (sheet) you will be more than fine. Anyone venture to guess what the Strasburg would bring this time around?

$1,000 is what I'm saying.

[armyatc22]

Sick tons of Alberts rookies!!!

AND WTF

09/10 UD EXQUISITE AUTO TYRKE EVANS BGS 8.5

HE DIDNT HAVE AN AUTO IN EXQUISITE!!!!

[tristan20]

Maybe this crap?

Tyreke Evans Exquisite Rookie Auto Signed SP /225 ROY - eBay (item 160422908193 end time Sep-08-10 19:03:45 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/Tyreke-Evans-Exquisite-Rookie-Auto-Signed-SP-225-ROY-/160422908193?pt=US_Basketball&hash=item2559f35121)

haha

[mma138]

i cant beleive all of the cards that are graded below a 7 ? even if i hit a gretzky . it could be a 6 or 7 ? wow . ............. for the price there should be nothing lower then a 8

[jubei777]

i heard that it got delayed to this friday. can anyone confirm?

[cruiserdaddy7]

Distributor told me the same thing. Gray said on here it would ship last Friday so who knows anymore

[armyatc22]

Still cant believe that this card is in here:
09/10 UD EXQUISITE AUTO TYRKE EVANS BGS 8.5
If i pull it in my case I will be going the legal route since I know 100% the auto is fake...Tyrke didnt sign in Exq this year!!!

[bled11qb]

Still cant believe that this card is in here:
09/10 UD EXQUISITE AUTO TYRKE EVANS BGS 8.5
If i pull it in my case I will be going the legal route since I know 100% the auto is fake...Tyrke didnt sign in Exq this year!!!


I don't think the Auto is fake. Someone on the message boards posted months ago about a trip he made to a show where many players were signing Auto's (including Tyreke). He showed pictures of Tyreke signing the Exquisite card & inscribing it. If you search the forums you'll probably find the post. So, it's probably this card that was bought by Brian Gray & inserted into the packs.

Still, though, Brian Gray shouldn't have put it into this product, but he probably had no idea the card was never insert as an Auto in Exquisite & had to be signed after the product was released which just goes to show that he doesn't do any research at all.

EDIT: I just searched the foums & I made a mistake. The card that someone on here had signed was Brandon Jennings. My mistake. So, unless there is proof that Tyreke signed this card, I would definitely question it & Brian Gray should've done some research before inserting it.

[cruiserdaddy7]

Lets see if Brian Gray will address this in the forums. Would certainly earn him some respect in my book and Im sure the eyes of many other customers of his.