The 86/87 Fleer Elephant in the Room that No One Wants to Talk About!

[MJRookieHoarder]

Is it me or are the grading populations for the 86/87 Fleer basketball getting out of control for BGS and PSA? With the amount of people that bust open the case and request new grading, I am venturing to say the POP report is overinflated by at least 30%. Why is it that when I pop a random 1/1 out of a case and submit for a rebid, PSA does not update the POP report? Is it because they don't want to show a 1/1 with a population of 2? Here are two ways to remedy the issue of over populated reports:

1. PSA and BGS need to contact each other when crossing over each other's cards. This would eliminate duplicate graded cards from being included in the other companies POP report.

2. All sports card manufactures need to add serial numbers on all cards. This is the quickest and easiest way to cure the problem going forward.

Let me know what you guys think

[JMarchand1981]

I think that given your screen name you have a vested, biased opinion on this subject. Further, I am not certain that grading companies really care about the hobby. Moreover, if I were a PSA shareholder I would not want them wasting resources to correct an issue that does not pertain to EPS. This is my biased opinion.

[MJRookieHoarder]

I think that given your screen name you have a vested, biased opinion on this subject. Further, I am not certain that grading companies really care about the hobby. Moreover, if I were a PSA shareholder I would not want them wasting resources to correct an issue that does not pertain to EPS. This is my biased opinion.

I definitely have a vested interest in the 86/87 Fleer MJ, I'm not gonna lie. I just don't want my cards devalued based on BGS and PSA's unrealistic POP reports. Less is more in this industry.

[iluvfish2]

If you break a card out for resubmission, how are they to know it was already submitted?

[MJRookieHoarder]

If you break a card out for resubmission, how are they to know it was already submitted?

That's my point exactly. The sports card manufacturers need to add serial numbers on all sports cards.

[6celtics33]

Ok but how does that help with 86 fleer?

[TarjetasBéisbol]

That's my point exactly. The sports card manufacturers need to add serial numbers on all sports cards.

Figure the odds on that happening and like another poster commented, how does that help cards that are already issued without a serial number? You think that competing grading companies are going to cooperate with each other? I highly doubt that!

[Vipertron]

Ok but how does that help with 86 fleer?
Beat me to it.
Everyone should get together and start hand numbering the 86-87 Fleer.:rolleyes:

[MJRookieHoarder]

Ok but how does that help with 86 fleer?

Transparency between BGS and PSA would be a start. They know how many cards they've crossed over of the other companies grades. Eliminate those right off the bat. These are multi-million dollar companies, they definitely have the data.

[Vipertron]

99% of the cards today has a serial number.

[iluvfish2]

That's my point exactly. The sports card manufacturers need to add serial numbers on all sports cards.

Ok kind of off topic since your thread is regarding the 86/87 MJ's but there's so many grading companies, no one has a full database of those, but why would it matter to PSA if they regraded a BGS 10 a 9, or flip side a PSA 10 regraded by Becektt to be a 9. Im not looking to debate who is better and/or what cross grades to another. But more so why another company would care to the standards used by the other company for grading cards. One is subjective, and even with 2 people independently grading a card, I doubt it gets the same grade more than 75% of the time (and I think I'm high there).

Each company has their own standards and the work that they do to keep those standards is really what has helped set each one apart.

Each company has their own followings, as well as positives and negative, but for todays markets, I would say both very much have a a vested interest going forward as well as being well established in todays current sports card market.

[derder]

Beat me to it.
Everyone should get together and start hand numbering the 86-87 Fleer.:rolleyes:

I'm gonna number mine 1/1 so y'all are gonna havta bust out the old highlighters and start making some different colored parallels...

Neon pink refractor Jordan rc/5
Radioactive pee green refractor Jordan rc/25

[6celtics33]

86 fleer is through the roof the last 2 years anyway. Whatever is going on with the pop report isn't hurting values.

[MJRookieHoarder]

I guarantee you a class action lawsuit would change the way they operate. Their POP's directly correlate with value. If The POP's are wrong, they are doing a disservice to everyone in the industry.

[MJRookieHoarder]

I'm gonna number mine 1/1 so y'all are gonna havta bust out the old highlighters and start making some different colored parallels...

Neon pink refractor Jordan rc/5
Radioactive pee green refractor Jordan rc/25

Lmao! Now that's funny!

[MJRookieHoarder]

99% of the cards today has a serial number.

Not true.

[Vipertron]

If you break a card out for resubmission, how are they to know it was already submitted?Back to this.
Even if the grading companies cooperate. How are they going to keep track if submitters crack the case and submit it raw?

[6celtics33]

I guarantee you a class action lawsuit would change the way they operate. Their POP's directly correlate with value. If The POP's are wrong, they are doing a disservice to everyone in the industry.

No way in the world that would work. The pop is stupid anyway. Money flows upward. Nobody cares how many 9.5s there are. The nice ones, quad 9.5s and up are considered the cream of the crop. Just like psa 10s that are clean and centered. There simply are not enough of those to satisfy demand. 9.5s with 9 centering or corners and psa 10s with surface flaws or off center might as well be graded bgs 9.25 or psa 9.5.

[Vipertron]

Not true.
OK...I exaggerated a little. 98%

[derder]

Back to this.
Even if the grading companies cooperate. How are they going to keep track if submitters crack the case and submit it raw?



Only way I see it working is if they were tagged in the future with some type of Psadna thing and if they'd been previously graded refuse to reslab them... But that would never happen because it would lose them money

[Doublexthebeast]

I guarantee you a class action lawsuit would change the way they operate. Their POP's directly correlate with value. If The POP's are wrong, they are doing a disservice to everyone in the industry.

If I buy 500 86-87 Fleer PSA 8 commons from EBay and I crack out all 500 myself in my moms basement wearing a Van Halen t-shirt and send all 500- now raw 86-87 Fleers to BGS then what does that have to do with either company communicating about crossing over grades? Nothing, cause BGS wouldn't know that they used to be graded by PSA. This is likely what happens most of the time.... Minus the Van Halen t shirt.

Your asking the impossible and the pop report will always be skewed on non serial numbered cards. Hell, it's even skewed on serial numbered cards.

[vtgmsc]

Yeah, this is a huge problem. It is killing MJ Rookie prices. They are plummeting..... sell me some! :)

:) :) :) :)!:doh::eek::cool:

Peace, Mike

[JMarchand1981]

I guarantee you a class action lawsuit would change the way they operate. Their POP's directly correlate with value. If The POP's are wrong, they are doing a disservice to everyone in the industry.

They would just do away with the pop report. It is a non revenue generating service at its core. They could do what you are suggesting but they would charge a fee....again, if I were a shareholder, I could give a rats crap about the hobby.

[AbraCalabro]

http://i.imgur.com/mHM3DMk.gif

The Jordan guys never cease to amaze me. :doh::rolleyes:

[iluvfish2]

I like the pop reporr, but you need to have solid numbers before the reports useful. 5 graded copies doesn't help you judge how rare say a psa10 is. Have 1000 graded and only 2 are 10s, and most are 8 or 9s. Now you have a lot more data to evaluate how rare a 10 is

[Kobe101]

Transparency between BGS and PSA would be a start. They know how many cards they've crossed over of the other companies grades. Eliminate those right off the bat. These are multi-million dollar companies, they definitely have the data.



Send me all of your cards... I just got a embossed stamp template and I promise I will number all of your cards and send them back to you.

Please be sure you only send me non-numbered cards so you can't later prove they are yours ...

Pm me and I will send my address to you

[Nutcracker33]

I definitely have a vested interest in the 86/87 Fleer MJ, I'm not gonna lie. I just don't want my cards devalued based on BGS and PSA's unrealistic POP reports. Less is more in this industry.

but is not devaluating, so your argument has no base at all, and resubmitting the same card to get a better grade has been going on for years.

unless I am missing something :confused::confused:

[imbluestreak23]

I guarantee you a class action lawsuit would change the way they operate. Their POP's directly correlate with value. If The POP's are wrong, they are doing a disservice to everyone in the industry.

Class action lawsuit?

What exactly would you be suing them for?

Inaccurate pop reports suck, we all get it. But I'm pretty sure anyone who is a part of the justice system would laugh at this request.

[smalltown]

The 86/87 Fleer Elephant in the Room that No One Wants to Talk About!

The Elephant in the room isn't PSA or BGS. Its the sheer volume of 86/87 out there. It's not a rare set, it's not a rare card and those POP numbers will keep climbing as more and more people see that they can squeak additional dollars out of their collections.

As for PSA and BGS working together - it'll never happen and why should it. They're competitors.

[GC1980]

We all know the pop report numbers are bloated for this and pretty much all blue chip cards across all sports. Crack and resubs and crossovers will never be able to be accurately tracked. Collectors with an understanding of how this works factor this in when considering these cards. Those that don't point to huge pop report numbers and cry, "it's so abundant look at the pop reports! Card X is overvalued!" More often than not, those are the collectors that either have no interest in buying the card or want one and don't have one.

This is not a elephant in the room, it's common knowledge and has had no impact on the cards "value" over time. The 86-87 Fleer cards are by no means rare but dead centered, top end copies in 9-10 holders are not nearly as abundant as some might think.

Keep hoarding OP. Elephant or no, I think you'll be just fine.

[glen87]

Is it me or are the grading populations for the 86/87 Fleer basketball getting out of control for BGS and PSA? With the amount of people that bust open the case and request new grading, I am venturing to say the POP report is overinflated by at least 30%. Why is it that when I pop a random 1/1 out of a case and submit for a rebid, PSA does not update the POP report? Is it because they don't want to show a 1/1 with a population of 2? Here are two ways to remedy the issue of over populated reports:

1. PSA and BGS need to contact each other when crossing over each other's cards. This would eliminate duplicate graded cards from being included in the other companies POP report.

2. All sports card manufactures need to add serial numbers on all cards. This is the quickest and easiest way to cure the problem going forward.

Let me know what you guys think

I guarantee you a class action lawsuit would change the way they operate. Their POP's directly correlate with value. If The POP's are wrong, they are doing a disservice to everyone in the industry.

http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Young-Miley-Cyrus-Say-What-Reaction-Gif.gif

[gilly6993]

I guarantee you a class action lawsuit would change the way they operate. Their POP's directly correlate with value. If The POP's are wrong, they are doing a disservice to everyone in the industry.

LMAO....a class action lawsuit....now that's funny.....They're in the business of grading cards....they love to see cards broken and regraded....if you look at what MJ rookies are trading for compared to 5 years ago I don't think you have much of a case (no pun intended)

[elee712]

There is some incentive for companies to keep the pop results somewhat accurate. I feel it would attract more submissions of a card if there were not already so many that appear already graded. Low pop means higher card value and people will chase.

I know its unlikely but PSA and or bgs can do a tag buyback program where if you send back a legit case tag after breaking a case you can get some discount on future grades. PSA and bgs can also have an agreement to send each other the tags of cards that were crossed over. Then they can update the pops

[hermanotarjeta]

You need to factor this in before you decide to put some money into a specific card. If this bothers you enough, don't invest in a non serial numbered card.

Just make sure you don't get upset when you find out there is a pop report of 125 for a card serial numbered to 100, though.

[Yaga]

Class action lawsuit?????

Lol this might be the winner for the dumbest thread of the year.

[blackbears86]

There is some incentive for companies to keep the pop results somewhat accurate. I feel it would attract more submissions of a card if there were not already so many that appear already graded. Low pop means higher card value and people will chase.
I know its unlikely but PSA and or bgs can do a tag buyback program where if you send back a legit case tag after breaking a case you can get some discount on future grades. PSA and bgs can also have an agreement to send each other the tags of cards that were crossed over. Then they can update the pops

When it comes to an iconic set like 86' fleer the pop report could be three times more and it wouldn't matter, people have and will always continue to collect this set. Probably one of the most popular sets of all time, and not just in basketball.

[MJRookieHoarder]

So some of you guys say a POP report determines value, half of you say it doesn't affect value. What's wrong with getting a publicly traded company like PSA to operate in a way that's more collector centric? In 20 years when we have 150,000 Fleer MJ rookies and 5,000 Star 101's graded, the industry is gonna look pretty foolish. We all know a lot of people determine rarity of a card from POP reports, just look at all the listings on eBay of people referencing POP reports in their description. What's wrong with trying to get PSA and BGS to change the way they operate to benefit the collector going forward? Most the people in this thread are acknowledging that something is wrong with the process, but yet no one wants to hold PSA or BGS accountable. You guys are telling me that something as simple as PSA and BGS communicating when cards get crossed over is unrealistic. Is it really? These guys are making millions off of collectors only, shouldn't we hold them to a higher standard?

[MJRookieHoarder]

Class action lawsuit?????

Lol this might be the winner for the dumbest thread of the year.

No input just insults? Typical. Your obviously ok with getting bamboozled by these grading companies.

[blackbears86]

So some of you guys say a POP report determines value, half of you say it doesn't affect value. What's wrong with getting a publicly traded company like PSA to operate in a way that's more collector centric. In 20 years when we have 150,000 Fleer MJ rookies and 5,000 Star 101's graded, the industry is gonna look pretty foolish. We all know a lot of people determine rarity of a card from POP reports, just look at all the listings on eBay of people referencing POP reports in their description. What's wrong with trying to get PSA and BGS to change the way they operate to benefit the collector going forward. Most the people in this thread are acknowledging that something is wrong with the process, but yet no one wants to hold PSA or BGS accountable. You guys are telling me that something as simple as PSA and BGS communicating when cards get crossed over is unrealistic. Is it really? These guys are making millions off of collectors only, shouldn't we hold them to a higher standard?



If you are that concerned about this then why not write to both PSA/BGS?

Personally, I have more pressing issues with PSA/BGS that I would rather they address:

1. How about card grading consistency?
2. How about auto grading consistency?
3. How about more uniform methods to address trimming/alterations to cards?
4. How about actual accurate turn around times on graded orders?

And I'm sure there are many more...............

You have my sympathies with your complaint, but there are much bigger issues with these companies....

[mfw13]

If you are that concerned about this then why not write to both PSA/BGS?

Personally, I have more pressing issues with PSA/BGS that I would rather they address:

1. How about card grading consistency?
2. How about auto grading consistency?
3. How about more uniform methods to address trimming/alterations to cards?
4. How about actual accurate turn around times on graded orders?

And I'm sure there are many more...............

You have my sympathies with your complaint, but there are much bigger issues with these companies....

5. How about releasing information about the qualifications and training of their graders?
6. How about releasing information about the actual grading process?

PSA has no financial incentive to change anything unless enough people get upset enough that submissions (and therefore revenue) start to drop.

It's no different than with Topps/Panini in terms of issue like redemptions...unless collectors stop whining and start boycotting, thus causing revenue to drop, they've got no financial incentive to do a thing.

[cp3fan]

5. How about releasing information about the qualifications and training of their graders?
6. How about releasing information about the actual grading process?

PSA has no financial incentive to change anything unless enough people get upset enough that submissions (and therefore revenue) start to drop.

It's no different than with Topps/Panini in terms of issue like redemptions...unless collectors stop whining and start boycotting, thus causing revenue to drop, they've got no financial incentive to do a thing.

This. "If it don't make dollars, it don't make sense." Therefore, you will not be seeing any changes suggested in the OP anytime soon.

[blackbears86]

5. How about releasing information about the qualifications and training of their graders?
6. How about releasing information about the actual grading process?

PSA has no financial incentive to change anything unless enough people get upset enough that submissions (and therefore revenue) start to drop.

It's no different than with Topps/Panini in terms of issue like redemptions...unless collectors stop whining and start boycotting, thus causing revenue to drop, they've got no financial incentive to do a thing.

there's others too....Thanks for expanding!:)!

[hermanotarjeta]

So some of you guys say a POP report determines value, half of you say it doesn't affect value. What's wrong with getting a publicly traded company like PSA to operate in a way that's more collector centric? In 20 years when we have 150,000 Fleer MJ rookies and 5,000 Star 101's graded, the industry is gonna look pretty foolish. We all know a lot of people determine rarity of a card from POP reports, just look at all the listings on eBay of people referencing POP reports in their description. What's wrong with trying to get PSA and BGS to change the way they operate to benefit the collector going forward? Most the people in this thread are acknowledging that something is wrong with the process, but yet no one wants to hold PSA or BGS accountable. You guys are telling me that something as simple as PSA and BGS communicating when cards get crossed over is unrealistic. Is it really? These guys are making millions off of collectors only, shouldn't we hold them to a higher standard?

Collectors are also making millions off of loose grading standards - so why would anyone want to change? If you are in this hobby looking for integrity - look elsewhere. The only standard is making money and greed. The card companies feed off this as well- we simply trust that their autos/jerseys/print runs are what they say they are - they are accountable for nothing so as far as everyone is entertained and making money.

[regularp]

This is a really solid troll thread.

[gilly6993]

Well the person bidding $30K on a PSA 10 Jordan doesn't really care now does he (if it's even a real bid)....


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