MUST READ TRIMMING THREAD: COMC- HawkDynasty,cccardfactory,LORDSTANLEY2012|PWCC|ih8ca - Page 60

waxxius · 09-30-2019, 09:39 AM

After discovering this thread, I took down all cards I had for sale on COMC that I purchased from these accounts as I don't want to sell cards that are potentially altered. How do I know if they are altered and if they are what should I do?

ThoseBackPages · 09-30-2019, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waxxius

After discovering this thread, I took down all cards I had for sale on COMC that I purchased from these accounts as I don't want to sell cards that are potentially altered. How do I know if they are altered and if they are what should I do?

Good Man!

best thing to do is burn them

gmoney328 · 09-30-2019, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

Good Man!

best thing to do is burn them

Man that's a tough prospect if you own these cards. Do buyers have any legitimate recourse at all? This whole saga stinks on so many levels.

cking · 09-30-2019, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waxxius

After discovering this thread, I took down all cards I had for sale on COMC that I purchased from these accounts as I don't want to sell cards that are potentially altered. How do I know if they are altered and if they are what should I do?

Email COMC and ask them.

I am sure it will only take 6 or 7 emails until you get a response.

If you get a response before that consider yourself lucky.

HarryLime · 09-30-2019, 03:16 PM

I think I'd be ringing the FBI SAIC and gauging what their level of involvement was in all of this. If they're on it, I send them the cards along with any and all documents pertaining to them. If they're not, I ask them why they're not pursuing a multi-million dollar front for fraud and then tell them I'll be seeking legal representation. If they won't be working on it, they can explain to the press why these guys get a pass but others get nailed to the wall.

Then I take my pants off, grab a Bud Light and hit the recliner.

Arthur

waxxius · 09-30-2019, 03:29 PM

I feel my biggest issue is going to be that I have no proof these cards are altered. I feel the chances of them being altered are high enough that I do not feel comfortable reselling. What I don't understand is how are these cards getting graded when i have had many cards denied for being trimmed which I knew were not (cards I pulled myself and a redemption shipped from manufacturer). This whole thing is so messed up.

GoBeavs · 09-30-2019, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryLime

I think I'd be ringing the FBI SAIC and gauging what their level of involvement was in all of this. If they're on it, I send them the cards along with any and all documents pertaining to them. If they're not, I ask them why they're not pursuing a multi-million dollar front for fraud and then tell them I'll be seeking legal representation. If they won't be working on it, they can explain to the press why these guys get a pass but others get nailed to the wall.

Then I take my pants off, grab a Bud Light and hit the recliner.

Arthur

Who has been nailed to the wall? As far as I can tell, they're all getting a pass. And the market doesn't seem to care one bit.

vwnut13 · 09-30-2019, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waxxius

After discovering this thread, I took down all cards I had for sale on COMC that I purchased from these accounts as I don't want to sell cards that are potentially altered. How do I know if they are altered and if they are what should I do?

Send them to PSA, they'll let you know if they are good.

tmoore_25 · 09-30-2019, 03:55 PM

I think these threads are more of an annoyance to me than help. Who is actually buying these cards? PSA won't give me a 10 on 2 Mike Trout rookies. 8 year old cards. Do you really believe that a card that is 50 years old and made using technology from that time is going to grade a 10? If so, you are an idiot.

waxxius · 09-30-2019, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmoore_25

I think these threads are more of an annoyance to me than help. Who is actually buying these cards? PSA won't give me a 10 on 2 Mike Trout rookies. 8 year old cards. Do you really believe that a card that is 50 years old and made using technology from that time is going to grade a 10? If so, you are an idiot.

Everything I bought from them is modern

HarryLime · 09-30-2019, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmoore_25

I think these threads are more of an annoyance to me than help. Who is actually buying these cards? PSA won't give me a 10 on 2 Mike Trout rookies. 8 year old cards. Do you really believe that a card that is 50 years old and made using technology from that time is going to grade a 10? If so, you are an idiot.

I've got a friend who made a collection buy from someone who collected football cards in the late'50s all te way to the early/mid-'70. He would buy boxes, open the packs, remove the gum, and then put the cards back into the packs and then the packs back into the wax boxes. That's how they sat for decades until he responded to my buddy's advertisement about buying collections.

Stuff is out there. Unfortunately, a lot of it has been ruined by greedy d*ckheads.

Arthur

HarryLime · 09-30-2019, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoBeavs

Who has been nailed to the wall? As far as I can tell, they're all getting a pass. And the market doesn't seem to care one bit.

I guess we won't know for sure until the FBI wraps up their investigation but I'm fairly confident some heads will roll. The same SA in charge of the Mastro case is in charge of this one so he knows what he's doing and he knows how important these things are.

Arthur

Pink Pussycat · 09-30-2019, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryLime

I guess we won't know for sure until the FBI wraps up their investigation but I'm fairly confident some heads will roll. The same SA in charge of the Mastro case is in charge of this one so he knows what he's doing and he knows how important these things are.

Arthur

It is a bit disturbing that they all get to continue doing business as usual, and are generating income during the supposed investigation. You’d think/hope the Feds would (at a minimum) put their businesses on hold until they are cleared of any wrongdoing.

I know about the “innocent until proven guilty” premise, but pretty sure the forced refunds of altered cards are a decent indication of guilt. The long wait for justice (while they keep raking in the cash) is very annoying.

MoreToppsPlease · 09-30-2019, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

Good Man!

best thing to do is burn them

But he has a '52 #311 in there!!

Bruins1993 · 09-30-2019, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by signed79

I now believe Joe knew about the fraud and participated in - a diiferent stance I had when all this originally broke out with PWCC and the Mantle.

I don't think he trimmed cards and sold them - but he did very heavily promote these "gems" and their sales publicly and personally.

Cards like this are not out there - he needs them to be. There's no way Joe Orlando didn't know what was going on - I think he just turned his head and benefited from great press and publicity - it was these sales that caused hype in the marketplace and growth for PSA that landed him a the CEO spot at Collector's Universe - there's the motive.

Personally, Joe Orlando at PSA is the guy I think the FBI needs to focus more on than anyone else.

Great points!

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbears86

I'm starting to think this too.

1. The bitter response to the public to all this being uncovered in the first place, essentially blaming collectors for uncovering this fraud
2. former employees of psa now being uncovered by BODA with a finite talent for trimming
3. the cozy relationships with known trimmers
4. the lack of transparency in releasing information regarding what cards were trimmed

Yes, I know, nothing verified here, but if it looks like a dog, barks like a dog.........

More great points!

You mean ZERO transparency

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryLime

I guess we won't know for sure until the FBI wraps up their investigation but I'm fairly confident some heads will roll. The same SA in charge of the Mastro case is in charge of this one so he knows what he's doing and he knows how important these things are.

Arthur

Great to hear!

ThoseBackPages · 09-30-2019, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

But he has a '52 #311 in there!!

pspa123 · 09-30-2019, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pink Pussycat

It is a bit disturbing that they all get to continue doing business as usual, and are generating income during the supposed investigation. You’d think/hope the Feds would (at a minimum) put their businesses on hold until they are cleared of any wrongdoing.

I know about the “innocent until proven guilty” premise, but pretty sure the forced refunds of altered cards are a decent indication of guilt. The long wait for justice (while they keep raking in the cash) is very annoying.

You think the federal government is somehow going to shut down a baseball card grading business or a seller of baseball cards while they are being investigated and have not been adjudicated to have done anything wrong or even formally accused of doing anything wrong? I think you had better lower your expectations (to zero), that's not how it works.

The Mastro case -- one auction house -- repeat, a single auction house with a few auctions a year -- took many years from start to finish. This is way more complicated. People just need to be very patient here and not expect anything visible to happen in the interim.

And nobody should be confident in the outcome. We have no idea what the scope of the investigation is, or what the evidence is going to show, or (perhaps most importantly) how prosecutors are going to assess the likelihood of prevailing which is going to determine whether they bring a case or not and against whom.

Pink Pussycat · 10-01-2019, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pspa123

You think the federal government is somehow going to shut down a baseball card grading business or a seller of baseball cards while they are being investigated and have not been adjudicated to have done anything wrong or even formally accused of doing anything wrong? I think you had better lower your expectations (to zero), that's not how it works.

The Mastro case -- one auction house -- repeat, a single auction house with a few auctions a year -- took many years from start to finish. This is way more complicated. People just need to be very patient here and not expect anything visible to happen in the interim.

And nobody should be confident in the outcome. We have no idea what the scope of the investigation is, or what the evidence is going to show, or (perhaps most importantly) how prosecutors are going to assess the likelihood of prevailing which is going to determine whether they bring a case or not and against whom.

I just meant it was annoying having to wait it out, while these corrupt entities (card doctors and their facilitators) continue to make huge sums of money off those who trusted them.

Ultimately I don't expect a thing to change (quickly, or at all for that matter), unless the public stops feeding them money and perpetuating the scam.

charnick · 10-01-2019, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pink Pussycat

It is a bit disturbing that they all get to continue doing business as usual, and are generating income during the supposed investigation. You’d think/hope the Feds would (at a minimum) put their businesses on hold until they are cleared of any wrongdoing.

I know about the “innocent until proven guilty” premise, but pretty sure the forced refunds of altered cards are a decent indication of guilt. The long wait for justice (while they keep raking in the cash) is very annoying.

I totally understand why the feds aren't gonna be shutting anyone down during the course of the investigation, but what's such a slap in the face to me is not only is PWCC continuing business as normal on eBay, but eBay continues to slap "Authenticity verified" stamps on every one of their listings. It's like they're going out of their way to stick their middle finger in the collective face of collectors.

Bruins1993 · 10-01-2019, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charnick

I totally understand why the feds aren't gonna be shutting anyone down during the course of the investigation, but what's such a slap in the face to me is not only is PWCC continuing business as normal on eBay, but eBay continues to slap "Authenticity verified" stamps on every one of their listings. It's like they're going out of their way to stick their middle finger in the collective face of collectors.

I've heard eBay sales have overruled their own layers advice on shutting down crooked sellers before. I am very serious and that was eBay's lawyer being candid with an outside lawyer!

corndog · 10-01-2019, 04:21 AM

PSA Cert #23739848

1964 Topps Whitey Ford #380 - Population 1 of 4

Value gain of $2,523.52

Current PSA Registry Sets:
This cert is currently in Set Registry inventory and is featured in one or more sets, including Henri Nuber 1964 Collections.

This card was purchased by Ebay ID card-buyer from Ebay seller PWCC as a PSA 8 for $126.48 on October 09, 2014.
PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1038190

Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA 10 for $2,650.00 on February 08, 2015.
PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1067926

Yellow circles are print, fiber, or chipping identifiers.
Red box identifies trimmed left edge. Always not an easy task to find flaws in PWCC scans as the settings used seem to always give the cards a slight blur which diminish details.

Treadstone · 10-01-2019, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pspa123

To repeat, based on everything I know from many many people who submit vintage, the number of 10s we are seeing here from the same subs is beyond astonishing.

Clearly they are targeting the PSA registry folks...

unclemonkey · 10-01-2019, 01:02 PM

My record keeping is sloppy, and I have been going back trying to link purchases to invoices on anything worth more than $20.

Creating a provenance is almost mandatory in high priced art to weed out fakes.

It is something BGS/PSA should offer for a fee.

It has worked for 100's of years in the art world.

Alot of wasted effort if the proven altered cards are not in a searchable database.

corndog · 10-01-2019, 02:49 PM

PSA Cert #23739850

1977 Topps Rookie Catchers #476 - Population 1 of 60

Value gain of $679.49

This card was purchased by Ebay ID card-buyer from Ebay seller probstein123 as a PSA 8 for $20.51 on November 12, 2014.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/b...=&limit=999999

Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA 10 for $700.00 on March 15, 2015.
PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1079900

Yellow circles are print, fiber, or chipping identifiers.
Red boxes identify trimmed left and top edges. No back image provided with the first sale data. Not an easy task to find flaws in PWCC scans as the settings used seem to always give the cards a slight blur which diminish details.

ken161 · 10-01-2019, 06:06 PM

The number of cards receiving the PSA10 grade by card-buyer is truly astonishing. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but why this didn't raise all sorts of red flags throughout the hallowed halls of PSA I'll never know.

I haven't sent cards to PSA in a very long time, but years ago I probably sent in 60-80 cards for grading. I received exactly one PSA10, a 1980 Topps Nolan Ryan. The card was from a vending box I bought from a Tuff Stuff ad. Had some other pretty nice stuff from 1977-80 from vending but they were mostly PSA8 and PSA9. I would say they were accurately graded, as even cards from vending have little nicks and imperfections. This endless supply of card-buyer PSA10 gems from the 1960s absolutely should have screamed for some sort of internal audit by PSA.

Never get cheated.

09-30-2019, 09:39 AM	#1476
waxxius Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 186	So Now What? After discovering this thread, I took down all cards I had for sale on COMC that I purchased from these accounts as I don't want to sell cards that are potentially altered. How do I know if they are altered and if they are what should I do?

09-30-2019, 03:55 PM	#1484
tmoore_25 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 1,740 tmoore_25	I think these threads are more of an annoyance to me than help. Who is actually buying these cards? PSA won't give me a 10 on 2 Mike Trout rookies. 8 year old cards. Do you really believe that a card that is 50 years old and made using technology from that time is going to grade a 10? If so, you are an idiot. __________________ PC: Nolan Ryan, Dustin May, Yadier Molina, Ronald Acuna, Ozzie Albies, Ichiro Atlanta Braves Topps Flagship and Topps Chrome Photo Variations

10-01-2019, 04:21 AM	#1496
corndog BODA Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: From a table in McDonalds, with lovely fake flowers on it. Posts: 18,249	PSA Cert #23739848 1964 Topps Whitey Ford #380 - Population 1 of 4 Value gain of $2,523.52 Current PSA Registry Sets: This cert is currently in Set Registry inventory and is featured in one or more sets, including Henri Nuber 1964 Collections. This card was purchased by Ebay ID card-buyer from Ebay seller PWCC as a PSA 8 for $126.48 on October 09, 2014. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1038190 Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA 10 for $2,650.00 on February 08, 2015. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1067926 Yellow circles are print, fiber, or chipping identifiers. Red box identifies trimmed left edge. Always not an easy task to find flaws in PWCC scans as the settings used seem to always give the cards a slight blur which diminish details. __________________ He has no rival, He has no equal.

10-01-2019, 02:49 PM	#1499
corndog BODA Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: From a table in McDonalds, with lovely fake flowers on it. Posts: 18,249	PSA Cert #23739850 1977 Topps Rookie Catchers #476 - Population 1 of 60 Value gain of $679.49 This card was purchased by Ebay ID card-buyer from Ebay seller probstein123 as a PSA 8 for $20.51 on November 12, 2014. VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/b...=&limit=999999 Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA 10 for $700.00 on March 15, 2015. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1079900 Yellow circles are print, fiber, or chipping identifiers. Red boxes identify trimmed left and top edges. No back image provided with the first sale data. Not an easy task to find flaws in PWCC scans as the settings used seem to always give the cards a slight blur which diminish details. __________________ He has no rival, He has no equal.

09-30-2019, 03:16 PM	#1480
HarryLime Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Spaceball 1 Posts: 4,794	I think I'd be ringing the FBI SAIC and gauging what their level of involvement was in all of this. If they're on it, I send them the cards along with any and all documents pertaining to them. If they're not, I ask them why they're not pursuing a multi-million dollar front for fraud and then tell them I'll be seeking legal representation. If they won't be working on it, they can explain to the press why these guys get a pass but others get nailed to the wall. Then I take my pants off, grab a Bud Light and hit the recliner. Arthur

09-30-2019, 03:29 PM	#1481
waxxius Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 186	I feel my biggest issue is going to be that I have no proof these cards are altered. I feel the chances of them being altered are high enough that I do not feel comfortable reselling. What I don't understand is how are these cards getting graded when i have had many cards denied for being trimmed which I knew were not (cards I pulled myself and a redemption shipped from manufacturer). This whole thing is so messed up.

10-01-2019, 01:02 PM	#1498
unclemonkey Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 4,989	My record keeping is sloppy, and I have been going back trying to link purchases to invoices on anything worth more than $20. Creating a provenance is almost mandatory in high priced art to weed out fakes. It is something BGS/PSA should offer for a fee. It has worked for 100's of years in the art world. Alot of wasted effort if the proven altered cards are not in a searchable database.

10-01-2019, 06:06 PM	#1500
ken161 Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 417	The number of cards receiving the PSA10 grade by card-buyer is truly astonishing. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but why this didn't raise all sorts of red flags throughout the hallowed halls of PSA I'll never know. I haven't sent cards to PSA in a very long time, but years ago I probably sent in 60-80 cards for grading. I received exactly one PSA10, a 1980 Topps Nolan Ryan. The card was from a vending box I bought from a Tuff Stuff ad. Had some other pretty nice stuff from 1977-80 from vending but they were mostly PSA8 and PSA9. I would say they were accurately graded, as even cards from vending have little nicks and imperfections. This endless supply of card-buyer PSA10 gems from the 1960s absolutely should have screamed for some sort of internal audit by PSA. Never get cheated.