ESPN - Top 10 Small Forwards of All Time

[6celtics33]

i miss those gums

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

I'm a Warriors fan and I thought that was nuts. I mean we are only talking a 2 year sample of stardom.

Except you put Draymond on the top10 list... lmao

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

Except you put Draymond on the top10 list... lmao

I had Rick Barry on there twice. I was just being funny and doing my best ESPN impression.

[dasiegel]

Originally Posted by the27guy

Kevin durant anyone??

Nope, not yet

Originally Posted by Nyfancam01

Definitely Lebron over bird. Its disrespectful to James when people mention that Bird is better.

James would've wrecked bird.

Yea? I don't think Bird can guard Lebron but I KNOW Lebron can't guard Bird. Bird had an inch of 2 on Lebron and shot from above his head. He's shooting and posting all day in that matchup. Bird clearly can't stick with Lebron around the perimeter but the right team defense can help to negate that at least a little bit. Both are gonna get theirs.

Originally Posted by asujbl

LeBron...bunch of other guys.

I'm kidding (I love Larry Bird even though LeBron will pass him if he hasn't already)

They are doing one every 30 minutes - so far

10 - Dominique Wilkins
9 - James Worthy
8 - Rick Barry
7 - John Havlicek
6 - Scottie Pippen
5 - Elgin Baylor
4 - Kevin Durant
3 - Julius Erving
2 - Larry Bird
1 - LeBron James

I'll update the others (or others can) after lunch

I'd swap Bird for Lebron for now. Bird has more rings, more clutch shots, big moments, better Finals record. Can't take away from Lebron, just feel like Bird gets overlooked because he hasn't player in 25 years and people forget.

No way Durant is over Havlicek or Baylor. I'd also take Nique over Worthy. but other than maybe Durant I think we are dealing with the top guys here, just depends on the order.

[cp3fan]

Originally Posted by dasiegel

Nope, not yet



Yea? I don't think Bird can guard Lebron but I KNOW Lebron can't guard Bird. Bird had an inch of 2 on Lebron and shot from above his head. He's shooting and posting all day in that matchup. Bird clearly can't stick with Lebron around the perimeter but the right team defense can help to negate that at least a little bit. Both are gonna get theirs.



I'd swap Bird for Lebron for now. Bird has more rings, more clutch shots, big moments, better Finals record. Can't take away from Lebron, just feel like Bird gets overlooked because he hasn't player in 25 years and people forget.

No way Durant is over Havlicek or Baylor. I'd also take Nique over Worthy. but other than maybe Durant I think we are dealing with the top guys here, just depends on the order.

Bird only has one more ring (Lebron can possibly match or exceed that by the end of his career). I think Bird is hurt by a shortened career. When it's all said and done, Lebron will have much better career numbers than Bird and I believe Lebrons peak years have been better. I will definitely agree that Bird has had more signature moments and of course had an epic rivalry with Magic that Lebron wont be able to match. However, I'm putting Lebron #1 on my list with Bird at 2. I'm definitely not taking anything away from Bird as he is a great, great player but I just can't put him over Lebron. I agree with your opinions about Wilkins over Worthy and Durant's placement. I think Worthy has always been overrated and just like they did with Curry, they put Durant too high.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by GC1980

And here is the #1 Lebron fan. Please go educate yourself and try not to sound like a fanboy. To say this is ignorant. You want to say LBJ is better that is fine but your comment above is just flat out foolish.

RATS: I did not have the pleasure of watching Havlicek live but as an avid fan of NBA history I do have a decent knowledge of the guy. I am in no way saying he wasn't an all time great. I had him behind only Bird, LBJ, Julius, Pippen and Baylor (which could go either way). I just don't see him being WAY better than Pip. Penalizing Pippen for being 2nd fiddle to Michael Jordan isn't a really strong knock against him. Pippen was a stud in his won right.

I gather from all of your posts that you are an old timer and anything from the 90's on will never compare to the 60's-70's. I have no issue with putting Hondo as high as 4 personally. I just think to say he was way better than Pippen is a bit hyperbolic.

Was Bill Russell being hyperbolic when he said Hondo was the best all around player he ever saw? Hondo was a great defensive player, but not as good as Pippen. He was much better offensively than Pippen and took many clutch shots. He would have never had to defer to Toni Kukoc to take the last shot. During his prime Hondo had season averages of 28.9 and 27.5. He could have put up those type of numbers more often, but he consistently played along side multiple hofers. Compare than to Pippen 22.0 after Jordan's first retirement.

As far as older players vs.new. I have LeBron #1. I could easily put Dr. J or Baylor, who is another player you and many others severely underrate, but having seen the 3, I give the advantage to LeBron. When I see people disregarding great players from the 60's and 70s like Wilt, Baylor, West, Big O, Hondo, etc. I am going to speak up.

[jstasyk1121]

i thought Nique would be higher...i thought he was better than Worthy for sure...and probably 1 or 2 others...Durant is up there pretty high but he is on his way to a pretty special career...

[WillC]

Durant over Baylor and Havlicek? WTF?

[dasiegel]

Originally Posted by cp3fan

Bird only has one more ring (Lebron can possibly match or exceed that by the end of his career). I think Bird is hurt by a shortened career. When it's all said and done, Lebron will have much better career numbers than Bird and I believe Lebrons peak years have been better. I will definitely agree that Bird has had more signature moments and of course had an epic rivalry with Magic that Lebron wont be able to match. However, I'm putting Lebron #1 on my list with Bird at 2. I'm definitely not taking anything away from Bird as he is a great, great player but I just can't put him over Lebron. I agree with your opinions about Wilkins over Worthy and Durant's placement. I think Worthy has always been overrated and just like they did with Curry, they put Durant too high.

Well those are clearly 1/2 in my book, some would say Dr J or Elgin. I think they have had about the same years in the league if Lebron retired today. I actually think Bird's 82-83 to86-87 5 year window was better than Lebron's best 5 years but after 87 Bird's injuries definitely took him down a notch with the back stuff so I think overall Lebron has had a better 12-13 year career. I give Bird the edge for now because a tie goes to the rings and big moments we're all in love with... so basically, "AND THERE'S A STEAL BY BIRD!"

[GC1980]

Originally Posted by rats60

Was Bill Russell being hyperbolic when he said Hondo was the best all around player he ever saw? Hondo was a great defensive player, but not as good as Pippen. He was much better offensively than Pippen and took many clutch shots. He would have never had to defer to Toni Kukoc to take the last shot. During his prime Hondo had season averages of 28.9 and 27.5. He could have put up those type of numbers more often, but he consistently played along side multiple hofers. Compare than to Pippen 22.0 after Jordan's first retirement.

As far as older players vs.new. I have LeBron #1. I could easily put Dr. J or Baylor, who is another player you and many others severely underrate, but having seen the 3, I give the advantage to LeBron. When I see people disregarding great players from the 60's and 70s like Wilt, Baylor, West, Big O, Hondo, etc. I am going to speak up.

Bold 1: No that is his opinion. Saying he is WAY batter than Pippen is hyperbolic. Better? Sure if that is your opinion. Way? Not sure you can say that.

Bold 2: Who is severely underrating Baylor? I believe I had him top 5. Is he better than Dr. J, Bird or Lebron?

Bold 3: Who is disregarding any of those names? I have Oscar behind only Magic at his position. West top 3-4 SG after MJ, Kobe and MAYBE but likely not Wade. Baylor and Hondo were great.

One more time, I have no issue if you put Hondo over Pippen. I just think it's wrong to say he was way better and to marginalize Pippen's career because he was on the same team as MJ.

[6celtics33]

Lebron will obviously end up with better career #'s than Bird but Bird's peak 4-6 years are as good as anyone's that ever played and better than any Lebron can speak of. Comparing title counts is a little off too in my opinion. 80s Celtics/Lakers existing at the same time both brought out the best in each other and elevated the whole league to another level but..... Also artificially held down each team's title count because they kept playing each other.

[spurs50fan]

Always liked Alex English even though he's not up there

[tristan20]

Crazy that Lebron is number 1 and still playing.

People need to start appreciating a once in a generation player.

[myusasets]

oscar robertson sm.forward shooting guard ? you've got to be kidding.

[pip33tomj23]

Originally Posted by Nyfancam01

Definitely Lebron over bird. Its disrespectful to James when people mention that Bird is better.

James would've wrecked bird.

In terms of just raw physicality, yep, for sure Lebron.

That being said, I have Bird with a big advantage when it comes to the mental/intellectual aspects of the game. Don't get me wrong, Lebron is definitely a smart guy... I just believe Bird was better in this area.

When I look at the best at any position, I want a guy that plays both ends of the court, makes his teammates better, and puts the team on his back and wins.

Both have done that, I think Bird just did it in a tougher era and give him a slight nod as of now.

I also think the NBA today is SOFT... back in the 80s and 90s, teams HATED each other... now today, everyone is friends and the game suffers as a result.

[ccrab1984]

Durant over pippen!! Maybe after career is done. But that shows what a joke ESPN is.

[drobfan8]

Bird over LeBron still and it's not that close.

We all know Bird was hampered by injuries.

LeBron has some huge weaknesses and still can't shoot. He's lucky he gets a lot of open looks because that's what teams give him.

Bird never got open looks. And he still nailed the shots.

[JasonM32]

Originally Posted by pip33tomj23

In terms of just raw physicality, yep, for sure Lebron.

That being said, I have Bird with a big advantage when it comes to the mental/intellectual aspects of the game. Don't get me wrong, Lebron is definitely a smart guy... I just believe Bird was better in this area.

When I look at the best at any position, I want a guy that plays both ends of the court, makes his teammates better, and puts the team on his back and wins.

Both have done that, I think Bird just did it in a tougher era and give him a slight nod as of now.

I also think the NBA today is SOFT... back in the 80s and 90s, teams HATED each other... now today, everyone is friends and the game suffers as a result.

I agree with this 100% especially the mental aspect. Bird was tougher, better leader. Much better shooter, better rebounder. NBA basketball isn't a vertical leap contest, nor is it a contest of who has the fastest 40 time.

As great as Lebron is, there's no way in hell that I'd pick him over Larry Bird. Anyone who thinks Lebron would have wrecked Bird is nuts. Lebron didn't even wreck Dirk Nowitzki...with a stacked team.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by GC1980

Bold 1: No that is his opinion. Saying he is WAY batter than Pippen is hyperbolic. Better? Sure if that is your opinion. Way? Not sure you can say that.

Bold 2: Who is severely underrating Baylor? I believe I had him top 5. Is he better than Dr. J, Bird or Lebron?

Bold 3: Who is disregarding any of those names? I have Oscar behind only Magic at his position. West top 3-4 SG after MJ, Kobe and MAYBE but likely not Wade. Baylor and Hondo were great.

One more time, I have no issue if you put Hondo over Pippen. I just think it's wrong to say he was way better and to marginalize Pippen's career because he was on the same team as MJ.

1. I think you are reading too much into my comment. I have Pippen #5, so I don't think that I am underrating Pippen. When I say way better, I mean there is no question in my mind that Hondo was better and it was because he was a complete player where as Pippen wasn't a guy who you would trust taking a key shot.

2. ESPN has Durant ahead of Baylor. When talking about great players Baylor isn't even mentioned anymore. The guy scored 62 points in the NBA Finals. He is the best offensive player on this list and the best rebounder. I could easily have him #1. I like Lebron's all around game a little better. He is a toss up with Dr. J for 2, close behind Lebron.

As far as Bird, he was the best forward of all time, but as a SF, I would have Baylor ahead of him. Big Game James earned his nickname putting up 29, 33 and 28 in the last 3
Lakers wins in the 85 Finals. Wilkins torched him for 47 points in a game 7. After the 85 Finals, that was a weakness that other teams would exploit if they could. Note that the one team they did beat was the Rockets, I don't think they would have ever beaten the Lakers in a 7 game series after 85. If I am forced to play him at the 3, I really don't even want him. To me Bird was the protypical PF. He could guard anyone on the PF list, out rebound and abuse them with his inside - outside game, but he couldn't even guard 9 or 10 on this list. To me that is a huge negative.

3. West and Big O are disregarded. I don't see anyone picking O. I have a friend who is a little older and saw more of Oscar than I did, he has him ahead of Magic and MJ. He was that good. I obviously disagree, but here people who did not see him play, just automatically put him at 2 or lower.

As far as West, it depends on if you rate him as a PG where he played most of his career or as a SG because he wasn't a pure PG, even though he did lead the NBA in assists once, but more of a lead guard. As a PG, I have him 3 because he didn't have the assists. As a SG, he would be #2. He was a complete player. He was as good on defense as Kobe, better ball handler and better in the clutch. In 1965, he averaged 40 ppg in a NBA Finals and set an NBA record averaging 46 ppg against the Bullets. He was also MVP in 1969, a losing effort, with 42 points and a triple double in game 7 as well as a 53 point game. As far as NBA Finals for a career, Jordan is the only player better, regardless of position. For those who came around later, these games are easily forgotten. The idea that people would even compare Wade to him is absurd.

[aro13]

The year Jordan elected to play baseball the Bulls won 55 games with Pippen being their best player. The year before with Jordan they won 57. Pippen was a great player with or without Michael.

I think Havlicek and most other players from the past are highly under-rated today in comparison to modern players. Other then Dr. J, who I think is not close to being as good as Elgin Baylor. I respect Dr. J's game and he is a legend but he could not shoot outside of 15 to 17 feet and his defense was not outstanding. He was not a big time rebounder or passer.

As for LeBron versus Bird, it is amazing how so many people are quick to dismiss Bird today.

Other then driving to the basket (if you allow travelling each time) playing man-to-man defense, and being more athletic what is LeBron better at then Bird? Bird is a better shooter, a significantly better free throw shooter, better in the post, a better passer, and a better rebounder. Bird is a much better team defender (because he actually knows the fundamentals of the game), and he makes his teammates better, more so then probably any player to take the floor in the history of the game other then Magic Johnson and Bill Russell.

[the mesiah]

Surprised to not see Pierce on the list and also no mention, he is a 26k+ scorer , averaging 20+ points, 6 reb, 4 assts a game for 18 years now , Finals MVP , 4x all nba'er.

[xavieronly1]

Originally Posted by the mesiah

Surprised to not see Pierce on the list and also no mention, he is a 26k+ scorer , averaging 20+ points, 6 reb, 4 assts a game for 18 years now , Finals MVP , 4x all nba'er.

He did not even have one year when he was #1 forward in the league.

[6celtics33]

I wouldn't remove any of those 10 for Pierce but he was great. He deserves mention. He always battled Lebron to a draw and was a big time playoff shot maker.

[GC1980]

Originally Posted by aro13

The year Jordan elected to play baseball the Bulls won 55 games with Pippen being their best player. The year before with Jordan they won 57. Pippen was a great player with or without Michael.

I think Havlicek and most other players from the past are highly under-rated today in comparison to modern players. Other then Dr. J, who I think is not close to being as good as Elgin Baylor. I respect Dr. J's game and he is a legend but he could not shoot outside of 15 to 17 feet and his defense was not outstanding. He was not a big time rebounder or passer.

As for LeBron versus Bird, it is amazing how so many people are quick to dismiss Bird today.

Other then driving to the basket (if you allow travelling each time) playing man-to-man defense, and being more athletic what is LeBron better at then Bird? Bird is a better shooter, a significantly better free throw shooter, better in the post, a better passer, and a better rebounder. Bird is a much better team defender (because he actually knows the fundamentals of the game), and he makes his teammates better, more so then probably any player to take the floor in the history of the game other then Magic Johnson and Bill Russell.

AMEN! People have this notion that Larry Bird was some unathletic hick that couldn't guard anyone. The guy was actually a sneaky good defender and was on 3 all defensive teams. In his peak season, Larry Bird did it as well as anyone that ever stepped on the court. The guy was that good.

LBJ is a far superior athlete and a better on ball defender when he tries but it ends there. Larry was the better shooter, post player, rebounder, passer (and with how excellent James is as a passer that says something), positional defender (remember it was man to man only then), leader and competitor.

There is no doubt in my mind that LBJ will leave the game on par with Bird in terms of rings, if not exceed him. He will have plenty of hardware and accolades and will be a worthy name in the debate. Maybe a few more rings and finals MVPs coupled with what will undoubtedly be a longer peak will cement it for these lists but surpassing him as a player on the court is not happening. Even matching Larry is insanely high praise. The guy was just that good.

[the mesiah]

Originally Posted by xavieronly1

He did not even have one year when he was #1 forward in the league.

James worthy wasn't either , your post doesn't make sense.