Higbees ebay seller-star cards and ssa

[6celtics33]

It's not just the size but the distinct cutting characteristics that tell you if a star card is sheet cut. And there are cards in every year that you can find centered and some in every year that are basically or should be impossible.

[JMANIA]

Not sure where all the information is getting confused. If you want to question someone's cards, well okay. But that does not make them counterfeit or Type II's. People that have followed the cards for a long time know what can and cannot exist. It does not mean that 101's are sheet cut if a couple have surfaced from the same original source recently. Less than 10% of 101's are full-size 101's and it does not make them sheet cut: This is a full-size 101 and it is not sheet cut (you can see the back rear left side the red area under the copyright that original, unaltered 101's have.)

1984 85 Star Basketball Michael Jordan Rookie RC 101 BGS 8 NM MT High Subs | eBay

This is a 101 that appears to be sheet cut as there was another with the red bleed, this one has white in the surface and a large scratch (if you saw this card in person, the cutting of the edges will not resemble other 101's cut by Star):

1984-85 star #101 Michael Jordan rc bvg 9.5 centering Impossible MJ trc

[Vipertron]

Originally Posted by JMANIA

Not sure where all the information is getting confused. If you want to question someone's cards, well okay. But that does not make them counterfeit or Type II's. People that have followed the cards for a long time know what can and cannot exist. It does not mean that 101's are sheet cut if a couple have surfaced from the same original source recently. Less than 10% of 101's are full-size 101's and it does not make them sheet cut: This is a full-size 101 and it is not sheet cut (you can see the back rear left side the red area under the copyright that original, unaltered 101's have.)

1984 85 Star Basketball Michael Jordan Rookie RC 101 BGS 8 NM MT High Subs | eBay

This is a 101 that appears to be sheet cut as there was another with the red bleed, this one has white in the surface and a large scratch (if you saw this card in person, the cutting of the edges will not resemble other 101's cut by Star):

1984-85 star #101 Michael Jordan rc bvg 9.5 centering Impossible MJ trc

I like that 8 myself because it is full size.

[JMANIA]

Originally Posted by Springerj23

What's bad is the Star cards are notoriously sized small/big. The 101 for example I have seen small and large. The large have always been rumored to be sheet cut.
The 9 Ehlo is definitely trimmed, bottom border, and probably the sides as well.
Centering on the 83/84 and 84/85 are usually poor. The 85/86 improved dramatically.
I have always told inquiring minds that if you find nicely centered 83/84 or 84/85, the radar needs to be turned up. Something is probably a foul.

I believe that is way too general to say one cannot find 83-84 and 84-85 cards legitimately centered without discussing the particular card. Card by card basis. To say 85-86 improved when Ewing is known as one of the hardest key cards to legitimately find centered as well as some other cards. Anyone who said a large 101 is sheet cut I guess started another rumor.

[mulliganman]

Originally Posted by Vipertron

I like that 8 myself because it is full size.

Me too. It's now mine.

[Vipertron]

Originally Posted by mulliganman

Me too. It's now mine.

You bastard! j/k. Congrats!

[mulliganman]

Originally Posted by Vipertron

You bastard! j/k. Congrats!

LOL. . I've been watching for a good month or more and I liked the look of that one quite a bit. To my eye, it seemed to have pretty decent eye appeal for centering compared to other similarly graded 101's.

I would love to have the 86F 57 in a high grade but I am having a hard time justifying it at the current pricing with the population numbers. My thought has been it would only possibly be worthwhile in BGS 9.5 but only depending on the pricing.

I do have one 86 Fleer from back in the day I bought for $75 back when Beckett had the pricing for Mint copies at like $250 or so. That's been a while back...

[Vipertron]

Originally Posted by mulliganman

LOL. . I've been watching for a good month or more and I liked the look of that one quite a bit. To my eye, it seemed to have pretty decent eye appeal for centering compared to other similarly graded 101's.

I would love to have the 86F 57 in a high grade but I am having a hard time justifying it at the current pricing with the population numbers. My thought has been it would only possibly be worthwhile in BGS 9.5 but only depending on the pricing.

I do have one 86 Fleer from back in the day I bought for $75 back when Beckett had the pricing for Mint copies at like $250 or so. That's been a while back...

I was hawking that thing the day it was listed. You out sniped me. Anyways glad it went to a great home. Congrats again.

[Springerj23]

Look at the pop report
85-86 Star Ewing 250+/- total graded, several 9 or higher centering subs
84-85 Star Michael Jordan 101 510+/- total graded, handful with 9 or higher centering, only 5 w/ 9.5 centering
So that alone tells you the 85-86 set has better centering characteristics than prior years
There are nicely centered 83/84 and 84/85 Star cards, just few and far between. There are many more nicely centered 85-86 Star cards. My point was that the process improved in their last year of production.

[JMANIA]

Originally Posted by Springerj23

Look at the pop report
85-86 Star Ewing 250+/- total graded, several 9 or higher centering subs
84-85 Star Michael Jordan 101 510+/- total graded, handful with 9 or higher centering, only 5 w/ 9.5 centering
So that alone tells you the 85-86 set has better centering characteristics than prior years
There are nicely centered 83/84 and 84/85 Star cards, just few and far between. There are many more nicely centered 85-86 Star cards. My point was that the process improved in their last year of production.

Way too general again to discuss based on 2 cards. If you asked original Star Co. dealers, they would tell you Ewing and Olajuwon were the tougher rookies to find centered and I don't care what the pop report says as in the discussion based upon the Ehlo above it is irrelevant. Show me a dead centered Ewing on top of a bag and then I will care. 85-86 has plenty of other cards that routinely come off-center and the set has surface issues as do the 1986 Court Kings. Plus #8 and #9 form the 10 card set is routinely off-center. You can find a centered 83-84 Wilkins and on top of a bag for that matter so we know it is legit. 83-84 Worthy comes centered. 1983-84 Sixers, Sonics and other teams can be found centered. Plenty of cards come centered. But then within each team there might be tougher cards. Cannot just generalize. You might find a 1983-84 Larry Bird off-center but one well centered. I would not discuss 83-84 together with 84-85 which is generally tougher than 83-84 but each team is different. 84-85 Dallas Mavericks are awful, except for a couple, but that does not mean the 84-85 Washington Bullets are tough (except Darren Daye). The #101 can be found well-centered and is not the toughest card in the Bulls team set.

[Springerj23]

Forget I ever said anything JMania. I am going off what I have seen and the pop reports. You are trying to blanket my statements. I am not. I never said it was concrete, or all cards in the set. Most people don't care about any cards from the set(s) except the HOF rookies and that is what I am mainly referring.
I will argue your statement that there are well centered 101s. Sure there are, 5 9.5 gem Mt. I have seen several 101s with triple 9+ subs minus centering. Centering has always been the issue holding it back, always. So many 8.5s with the kiss of death 8 centering. Well centered 101s, about 35 of them to be exact. How can you say the pop reports don't matter? The proof is in the pudding, and the pop report is certainly that.
Everybody gets so offended when someone with a different opinion expressed it. No need for it. I have stated in this thread alone the following: from my observations, my opinion, etc. People come here looking for facts and help trying to identify real and fake Star cards. I simply give them info that I have seen hold true.
No one has all the answers, heck any Star thread should just start referencing basketball gold, as it's the most informative I have seen. Along with some Steve Taft articles, and other tidbits that can be found online. If a collector does their homework, it's pretty easy to distinguish authentic Star cards. That's all anybody in these forums has ever tried to do that I have seen. People seem to butt heads though when there are different opinions or viewpoints. Most don't come looking, asking about a Mavs bag, or Craig Ehlo single. Those are outliers of the majority. I was trying to state what I have seen and know about the HOF XRC's as I own several.
Everyone take it for what it's worth.

[JMANIA]

Originally Posted by Springerj23

Forget I ever said anything JMania. I am going off what I have seen and the pop reports. You are trying to blanket my statements. I am not. I never said it was concrete, or all cards in the set. Most people don't care about any cards from the set(s) except the HOF rookies and that is what I am mainly referring.
I will argue your statement that there are well centered 101s. Sure there are, 5 9.5 gem Mt. I have seen several 101s with triple 9+ subs minus centering. Centering has always been the issue holding it back, always. So many 8.5s with the kiss of death 8 centering. Well centered 101s, about 35 of them to be exact. How can you say the pop reports don't matter? The proof is in the pudding, and the pop report is certainly that.
Everybody gets so offended when someone with a different opinion expressed it. No need for it. I have stated in this thread alone the following: from my observations, my opinion, etc. People come here looking for facts and help trying to identify real and fake Star cards. I simply give them info that I have seen hold true.
No one has all the answers, heck any Star thread should just start referencing basketball gold, as it's the most informative I have seen. Along with some Steve Taft articles, and other tidbits that can be found online. If a collector does their homework, it's pretty easy to distinguish authentic Star cards. That's all anybody in these forums has ever tried to do that I have seen. People seem to butt heads though when there are different opinions or viewpoints. Most don't come looking, asking about a Mavs bag, or Craig Ehlo single. Those are outliers of the majority. I was trying to state what I have seen and know about the HOF XRC's as I own several.
Everyone take it for what it's worth.

I was merely trying to provide or correct information. I am glad you like basketballgold as it addresses all these issues that we are discussing. Like one should not write a large 101 is sheet cut as people may own one or be looking to buy one. Or caution people against an 83-84 card being centered wherein as you say key rookies do come centered (Worthy, Wilkins). While the 101 is notoriously off-center, well-centered 101's do exist (some people think none exist). I can write that because it is fact. Just because most are off-center does not mean there are not any that are well centered. The centering grade might drop also because they are Diamond cut often. You are using the pop report as an example but questioned one person's submissions to that pop report. Ewing is a top card on a bag that is extremely rare to find dead centered. Never heard anyone say the contrary. Blue bleed pulled from bag back top edge and rear right edge. And I know how to recognize the original cut of the left edge of the card.

[Springerj23]

As do I. Hence why I stated earlier, that the 85-86 snow white backs I would be vary leery of being Type II's, altered, or complete reproductions. Not one time did I ever say nothing existed. These cards are very rare to start with, centered versions that I was referring of even more rare. That's all I have been trying to convey. If you see well centered versions, they may be 100% authentic, but your guard needs to be up, as they are really few and far between.

[I only pull for]

One thing can't be denied however, the Star cards in the SSA holders seem to be coming back from BGS as altered. When people are buying those cards and sending them to Beckett and receiving authentic but altered, it should throw up a red flag.

I for one, would greatly appreciate the graders at BGS paying a little more attention to certain submissions with a little more detail and caution.
The seller in question may be struggling to keep food on the table and has resorted to doing unethical things.

[celtics86]

Originally Posted by I only pull for

One thing can't be denied however, the Star cards in the SSA holders seem to be coming back from BGS as altered. When people are buying those cards and sending them to Beckett and receiving authentic but altered, it should throw up a red flag.

I for one, would greatly appreciate the graders at BGS paying a little more attention to certain submissions with a little more detail and caution.
The seller in question may be struggling to keep food on the table and has resorted to doing unethical things.

Agree and I believe that was the point of this thread. In my experience, even Schonco labeled BGS cards with serial nos. 77#### and up started to look suspicious. That's around when I saw the first dead centered Ewing with crisp white reverse edges and pencil thin borders. They don't all appear altered in this range, of course. But if you consider the back story about Schonco (see my Beckett article post earlier in this thread), and then ask why there were Schonco holders many years after BGS started grading them in 2008 (how can BGS be assured that these much later graded cards were from the original Schonco collection?), it starts to look like a money grab -- culminating with what I presume was a trademark deal to start SSA, which obviously has nothing to do with the original Schonco BGS deal/agreement.

[JMANIA]

Originally Posted by celtics86

Agree and I believe that was the point of this thread. In my experience, even Schonco labeled BGS cards with serial nos. 77#### and up started to look suspicious. That's around when I saw the first dead centered Ewing with crisp white reverse edges and pencil thin borders. They don't all appear altered in this range, of course. But if you consider the back story about Schonco (see my Beckett article post earlier in this thread), and then ask why there were Schonco holders many years after BGS started grading them in 2008 (how can BGS be assured that these much later graded cards were from the original Schonco collection?), it starts to look like a money grab -- culminating with what I presume was a trademark deal to start SSA, which obviously has nothing to do with the original Schonco BGS deal/agreement.

The answer is there: Basketball Gold - Articles
[T]he Schonco Collection was not graded at one time before its release and, at some point, the Schonco Sports label was no longer put on the back of the BGS case identifying it.

Also under Schonco in glossary.

Basketball Gold - Glossary

It is a misconception, however, to state that all cards from the Schonco Collection were purchased directly from the Star Co. owner as Schonco also purchased directly from other Star Co. dealers and made numerous other purchases over the years. Since the Schonco Collection has been sold, it is possible and likely that the owner of that collection could have made his own purchases.

Also under FAQ
Basketball Gold - FAQs
FAQ: Are there other areas of deception to look out for other than Shop at Home cards or Type II's?

By the way, you could request labels on the back of your card submissions if you wanted and paid for a label and call it whatever you want.

[tedwilliamsfan]

I bought this card some years ago from higbee's on ebay. It has the Schonco flip. I don't think anyone would alter this particular card since it's only a BGS 6, but I'd like to be assured that it's real.

Sorry for the poor scan, but any insight would be greatly appreciated. A lot of very good information about Star cards in this thread.

1984-85 Star Michael Jordan Olympic BGS 6 Schonco Sports Flip

[JMANIA]

Originally Posted by tedwilliamsfan

I bought this card some years ago from higbee's on ebay. It has the Schonco flip. I don't think anyone would alter this particular card since it's only a BGS 6, but I'd like to be assured that it's real.

Sorry for the poor scan, but any insight would be greatly appreciated. A lot of very good information about Star cards in this thread.

1984-85 Star Michael Jordan Olympic BGS 6 Schonco Sports Flip

The card is real.

[Starman101]

Originally Posted by tedwilliamsfan

I bought this card some years ago from higbee's on ebay. It has the Schonco flip. I don't think anyone would alter this particular card since it's only a BGS 6, but I'd like to be assured that it's real.

Sorry for the poor scan, but any insight would be greatly appreciated. A lot of very good information about Star cards in this thread.

1984-85 Star Michael Jordan Olympic BGS 6 Schonco Sports Flip

Your card is 100% authentic

All BGS Star cards with the Schonco label are the real deal and are even held in higher regard by many Star collectors than the ones without the label

I have even seen Schonco labels selling for slight premiums over the regular BGS labels

However Star cards slabbed in SSA holders remain questionable as possible post-production altered cards

As I've said many times before, I wouldn't purchase a Star card that isnt BGS graded

There's just no getting around this if you want to be 100% sure

[Starman101]

Originally Posted by Springerj23

I have always told inquiring minds that if you find nicely centered 83/84 or 84/85, the radar needs to be turned up. Something is probably a foul.

Yep

[Starman101]

Originally Posted by Springerj23

There are nicely centered 83/84 and 84/85 Star cards, just few and far between. There are many more nicely centered 85-86 Star cards. My point was that the process improved in their last year of production.

Right again

[celtics86]

Originally Posted by JMANIA

The answer is there: Basketball Gold - Articles
[T]he Schonco Collection was not graded at one time before its release and, at some point, the Schonco Sports label was no longer put on the back of the BGS case identifying it.

Also under Schonco in glossary.

Basketball Gold - Glossary

It is a misconception, however, to state that all cards from the Schonco Collection were purchased directly from the Star Co. owner as Schonco also purchased directly from other Star Co. dealers and made numerous other purchases over the years. Since the Schonco Collection has been sold, it is possible and likely that the owner of that collection could have made his own purchases.

Also under FAQ
Basketball Gold - FAQs
FAQ: Are there other areas of deception to look out for other than Shop at Home cards or Type II's?

By the way, you could request labels on the back of your card submissions if you wanted and paid for a label and call it whatever you want.

Good resource - thanks for putting this together.

[I only pull for]

Great info on this thread for sure. Basketball Gold is a great source, and put together really well.
I believe I will stay away from Higbees from now on. I think higbees has stolen enough lunch money from people with those SSA cases.

[Springerj23]

The Olympic Jordan above is 100% authentic. Card is known for hardly a right border. Exact opposite of the 101.
On that note, I would love find a 8.5 Olympic if anybody has any info.

[Vipertron]

Originally Posted by Springerj23

The Olympic Jordan above is 100% authentic. Card is known for hardly a right border. Exact opposite of the 101.
On that note, I would love find a 8.5 Olympic if anybody has any info.

+1
Been looking forever for one with at least 8 centering.

7 centering on mine is pretty damn generous.