***OFFICIAL 2017 WORLD SERIES THREAD - Los Angeles Dodgers vs Houston Astros ***

[awz50]

I just want the dodgers to win tonight, so I can see a game 7

[REGGIE206]

Originally Posted by rats60

It is a very poor comparison. Manning has been pretty good in the playoffs. His career passer rating is 87.4, despite 2 poor post seasons his last 2 years in Denver. For comparison, Tom Brady is 89.0, it is possible Manning finishes ahead of Brady if Tom hangs on like Manning did. Manning was bad his 1st 3 and last 2 seasons. In between he only had one bad postseason. The rest were good to great, he just never had the talent around him that Brady or Montana had.

Kershaw on the other hand has been consistently bad in the post season. His career ERA of 4.50 is the worst all time for a pitcher with the number of innings he has thrown. This year, he has had 2 really good starts, yet his ERA is 4.35 and 5.60 for the World Series. His most important start was the worst of all.

Before Manning got his first ring in 2006-2007, he was known as a “playoff choker” that puts up unbelievable stats during the regular season. Exactly what people say about Kershaw today. That is what I’m comparing.. not the playoff stats he put up his championship year and after.

-In 1999, Manning threw 0 TD’s: eliminated in 1st game of playoffs.

-In 2000, Manning threw only 1 TD & 194 yards: eliminated again in 1st game of playoffs.

-In 2002, Manning threw 0 TD, 2 INT, & 137 yards: eliminated again 1st game of playoffs.

-In 2003, Manning finally made it to the AFC game, but threw 4 INT’s and lost.

-In 2004, Manning made it to the 2nd round, but threw 0 TD, 1 INT, 238 yards and lost.

-In 2005, Manning threw only 1 TD and lost the 1st game of the playoffs.

[Darth Bryzzo]

Sincere question: Why does Kershaw get so much more grief about poor postseason performance than someone like Greg Maddux did?

I love Maddux and I like Kershaw a lot as well, so I have no hidden agenda here.

I haven’t dug into all the comparative stats, so I’m sure those can be used to enlighten me with extreme prejudice. But just anecdotally from memory, I recall Maddux being pretty underwhelming in a lot of postseasons with both the Cubs and (more often) the Braves. True, he did eventually get a ring, but I don’t recall him being the principal reason that happened. He was kind of the highest profile postseason underachiever on one of the greatest postseason underachieving teams in baseball history (at least if truly historic success is measured by WS trophies, not division titles and/or league pennants).

I do recall Maddux getting a fair amount of criticism for that back in his day, but I don’t recall there being the level of vitriol there seems to be with Kershaw, even before he got his lone ring. Is that primarily due to the fact that his team’s owner controlled a huge media presence at the time and the whole internet firing squad/character assassination apparatus didn’t yet exist? Or is there a baseball reason or even personality difference reason for the seeming difference in treatment?

Maddux always seemed like a good guy who was generally well liked around the league, but even though Kershaw is a really fierce competitor, he also seems like a good and cool guy, so it’s hard for me to conclude that that sort of personality/popularity thing significantly explains it.

In any event, do folks think postseason success means as much to historic legacy in baseball as it does in football and basketball? Seems like baseball is more focused on stats and awards in regular season, with postseason success being an enhancer, but lack of postseason opportunity or success not necessarily being a big detractor.

Interested in other folks’ take.

[awz50]

In short Maddux flew under the radar for how great he was.

Kershaw does anything but fly under the radar

[awz50]

So more cristism because of the hype and exposure Kershaw gets

[Hollywood42]

Not sure if the Maddux point is fair- He did win 4 straight Cy Youngs, and finished top 5 in 4 of the 5 years immediately after that. Plus 18 Gold Gloves and an 8x All-Star

But, I do think it's relevant that Kershaw pitches for the Dodgers who have, off the top of my head, at worst a top 3 payroll in the MLB, with Kershaw being a big chunk of that. Expectations have to be incredibly high, and tolerance has to be pretty low

Originally Posted by awz50

In short Maddux flew under the radar for how great he was.

Kershaw does anything but fly under the radar

[awz50]

Originally Posted by Hollywood42

Not sure if the Maddux point is fair- He did win 4 straight Cy Youngs, and finished top 5 in 4 of the 5 years immediately after that. Plus 18 Gold Gloves and an 8x All-Star

But, I do think it's relevant that Kershaw pitches for the Dodgers who have, off the top of my head, at worst a top 3 payroll in the MLB, with Kershaw being a big chunk of that. Expectations have to be incredibly high, and tolerance has to be pretty low

Oh I 100% believe Maddux is the greatest pitcher who is still alive. (Only comparable is Clemens maybe)

[Hollywood42]

Right, not saying that you were saying he wasn't good, but looking back at what he did, I don't think he could have flown under the radar much. But I do agree that Kershaw is way more publicized and in the limelight than Maddux probably was, for a myriad of reasons

Originally Posted by awz50

Oh I 100% believe Maddux is the greatest pitcher who is still alive. (Only comparable is Clemens maybe)

[tribefan26]

Originally Posted by 72RangerFan

The same will be said for David Price I think he is legitimate HOF pitcher but hasn't faired well on the big stage either.


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Really? Did you watch him this year. He may have had HoF talent, but he isn’t close to HoF results.

[jstasyk1121]

Greg Maddux regular season ERA: 3.16
Greg Maddux post-season ERA: 3.27(in 198 innings)

Clayton Kershaw regular season ERA: 2.36
Clayton Kershaw post-season ERA: 4.50(in 118 innings)

Maddux went 11-14 in the playoffs so he had a poor record but was not even in the same stratosphere as Kershaw when it comes to ERA.

Maddux has the 5th most innings pitched in playoff history

Maddux 198inn-3.27era
Clemens 199inn- 3.75era
Smoltz 209inn-2.67era
Glavine 218inn- 3.30era
Pettitte 276inn- 3.81era

so yea was maddux really bad at all in post-season?? id argue he was pretty damn good...

then you have 118inn- 4.50era...thats pretty horrible for anyone let alone the guy who starts game 1 of every series...aka the ACE

[Darth Bryzzo]

Originally Posted by jstasyk1121

Greg Maddux regular season ERA: 3.16
Greg Maddux post-season ERA: 3.27(in 198 innings)

Clayton Kershaw regular season ERA: 2.36
Clayton Kershaw post-season ERA: 4.50(in 118 innings)

Maddux went 11-14 in the playoffs so he had a poor record but was not even in the same stratosphere as Kershaw when it comes to ERA.

Maddux has the 5th most innings pitched in playoff history

Maddux 198inn-3.27era
Clemens 199inn- 3.75era
Smoltz 209inn-2.67era
Glavine 218inn- 3.30era
Pettitte 276inn- 3.81era

so yea was maddux really bad at all in post-season?? id argue he was pretty damn good...

then you have 118inn- 4.50era...thats pretty horrible for anyone let alone the guy who starts game 1 of every series...aka the ACE

Very interesting. Thanks for posting all those comparative stats here.

I definitely recall there being a more heightened perception back in the middish to late ‘90s that Maddux was a pretty big postseason dud, so I’m surprised the ERA spread isn’t a lot more significant for him. Perhaps a lot of that perception and commentary at the time was substantially driven by the much greater emphasis on W-L record back in those relative statistical dark ages.

[tribefan26]

Originally Posted by jstasyk1121

so yea was maddux really bad at all in post-season?? id argue he was pretty damn good...

The Braves failures were more offensive than pitching. They also weren’t as dependent on Maddox as the Dodgers are on Kershaw. When you have Smoltz and Glavine as backups there is much less pressure on you.

[Firerunner4]

[rats60]

Originally Posted by REGGIE206

Before Manning got his first ring in 2006-2007, he was known as a “playoff choker” that puts up unbelievable stats during the regular season. Exactly what people say about Kershaw today. That is what I’m comparing.. not the playoff stats he put up his championship year and after.

-In 1999, Manning threw 0 TD’s: eliminated in 1st game of playoffs.

-In 2000, Manning threw only 1 TD & 194 yards: eliminated again in 1st game of playoffs.

-In 2002, Manning threw 0 TD, 2 INT, & 137 yards: eliminated again 1st game of playoffs.

-In 2003, Manning finally made it to the AFC game, but threw 4 INT’s and lost.

-In 2004, Manning made it to the 2nd round, but threw 0 TD, 1 INT, 238 yards and lost.

-In 2005, Manning threw only 1 TD and lost the 1st game of the playoffs.

In 2003 his playoff passer rating was 106.4. In 2004 his playoff passer rating was 107.4. In 2005 his playoff passer rating was 90.9. That is not the equivalent of a 4.50 ERA. In 2001 Tom Brady had a playoff passer rating of 77.3. In 2003 it was 84.5. If Manning is a choker for his performances in 2003-5, then are we going to make Brady give back his 1st 2 SB rings?

If Kershaw was losing games 1-0 and 2-1 and still had a sub 3 ERA, he would not be getting heat for not winning games. Just like now with a 3-0 record and a 4.35 ERA he isn't going to praised for having a good postseason because the Dodgers have scored 40 runs in his 5 starts.
Kershaw has been consistently bad in the postseason.

It is a team game. Manning was doing what he could, your expectations are unrealistic for what he had to help him. Kershaw on the other hand has consistently let his team down and the reason why they haven't won. Now Dodger fans are hoping the #2 and 3 starters plus the offense bail out Kershaw so he can get his ring. Then Kershaw will be great despite stinking. With Manning people blame him for losses that weren't his fault and then also blame him when the Broncos defense won a 2nd ring for him. Then Brady gets a pass for being bad on the Pats 1st 2 SB championship teams. Ridiculous.

[duwal]

Originally Posted by jstasyk1121

Greg Maddux regular season ERA: 3.16
Greg Maddux post-season ERA: 3.27(in 198 innings)

Clayton Kershaw regular season ERA: 2.36
Clayton Kershaw post-season ERA: 4.50(in 118 innings)

Maddux went 11-14 in the playoffs so he had a poor record but was not even in the same stratosphere as Kershaw when it comes to ERA.

Maddux has the 5th most innings pitched in playoff history

Maddux 198inn-3.27era
Clemens 199inn- 3.75era
Smoltz 209inn-2.67era
Glavine 218inn- 3.30era
Pettitte 276inn- 3.81era

so yea was maddux really bad at all in post-season?? id argue he was pretty damn good...

then you have 118inn- 4.50era...thats pretty horrible for anyone let alone the guy who starts game 1 of every series...aka the ACE

Yeah don't see how there can be much criticism about Greg Maddux come playoff time aside from maybe stepping up his game like other elite post season pitchers but overall Maddux's post season performance was pretty much even with how he pitched during the regular season while Kershaw legendary regular season numbers that all of a sudden playoff time most starts his stat lines look like a 4th or 5th starter trying to hold on to their job.

Also other than Maddux's first playoff start in 1989 when he was 23 and gave 8 earned runs the next worst outings were 5 ER and 4ER while Kershaw has given up 6+ earned runs in 5 starts.

Kershaw has given up 17 home runs in 19 starts while Maddux had just 14 go over the fence in 30 starts

[ThaReal1]

As Jon Lester said during Game 2. let you studs be studs!! Go get em tonight Hill!

[green4407]

If Roberts had just let Kershaw stay in the game to get the 3rd out, he'd have probably only given up 4 runs instead of 6. The way he manages the pitching staff is atrocious and is the reason they're down 3-2. Maybe he'll pull Hill after 3 innings tonight!

[calculusdork]

Originally Posted by ThaReal1

As Jon Lester said during Game 2. let you studs be studs!! Go get em tonight Hill!

If Hill is on tonight, the Dodgers have a very good chance to win. When Hill is on, he's as good as anyone.

[jstasyk1121]

Originally Posted by green4407

If Roberts had just let Kershaw stay in the game to get the 3rd out, he'd have probably only given up 4 runs instead of 6. The way he manages the pitching staff is atrocious and is the reason they're down 3-2. Maybe he'll pull Hill after 3 innings tonight!

you can just as easily say he ends up with 9er...you have absolutely no way of knowing this other than guessing he gets out of it vs the heart of the order when he was not pitching good up to that point to begin with...even if he does get out of that inning it was still a crap start of 5inn/4er....the excuses some people make for CK are crazy sometimes...4.2inn/6er or 5inn/4er...they are both not good starts from "the greatest of a generation"

[rman112]

Originally Posted by jstasyk1121

you can just as easily say he ends up with 9er...you have absolutely no way of knowing this other than guessing he gets out of it vs the heart of the order when he was not pitching good up to that point to begin with...even if he does get out of that inning it was still a crap start of 5inn/4er....the excuses some people make for CK are crazy sometimes...4.2inn/6er or 5inn/4er...they are both not good starts from "the greatest of a generation"

Yeah, the excuses are plenty. In some fan's eyes, the manager can't win when it comes to Kershaw. When Matt Adams went deep off Kershaw, it was "why didn't they pull him?". When Kershaw walked the bases loaded against the Mets, and they pulled him (and Baez gave up a hit), it was "why didn't they leave him in?". Now he's obviously struggling, gets pulled for a guy who's been really good out of the pen in Maeda, and again, questioning.

[deemsterz33]

Seller really blew it on this BC Blue Altuve......

http://www.ebay.com/itm/372122135191

[Afton9444]

I will say this... Kershaw is the Dodger go to pitcher.. If you are going to beat the dodgers you need to beat Kershaw. Now I do believe he should have left him in that inning to get the 3rd out. Now if it was 0 outs and he had 1st and 2nd. That is a different story, but with 2 outs he needs to let him finish them off. I think he gave the Astros exactly what they wanted Kershaw out of the game. I don't think Kershaw pitched that bad.. he made 2 mistakes and it cost him 4 runs. I really think Roberts has been awful in his managing of this bullpen and even calls.. The 2 best teams are going head to head...you make a mistake you aren't going to get away with it. Tonight is going to be a nail bitter. Go Dodgers!!!

[rats60]

Originally Posted by green4407

If Roberts had just let Kershaw stay in the game to get the 3rd out, he'd have probably only given up 4 runs instead of 6. The way he manages the pitching staff is atrocious and is the reason they're down 3-2. Maybe he'll pull Hill after 3 innings tonight!

Or 10. You don't seriously think he would have got Altuve and Correa out? In 2014 he had a 6-2 lead vs. the Cards and Mattingly left him in to get the 3rd out, he ended up allowing 8 runs.

[72RangerFan]

Originally Posted by tribefan26

Really? Did you watch him this year. He may have had HoF talent, but he isn’t close to HoF results.

Well he had an off year by anyones standards missing all of April most of May, then again all of August and half of September. I'm not making excuses for him he had a 135 ERA+ which is good in anyone's eyes and didn't give up a run after moving to the pen to help protect his elbow at the end of the season. If he comes back healthy with Sale, and Porcello turns back into his old self and Pomeranz just repeats this year the Yankees will have their hands full again.

[green4407]

Originally Posted by rats60

Or 10. You don't seriously think he would have got Altuve and Correa out? In 2014 he had a 6-2 lead vs. the Cards and Mattingly left him in to get the 3rd out, he ended up allowing 8 runs.

Well he couldn't have done worse than what Roberts replacement did with Altuve. As you can see Roberts has destroyed the bullpen by over using them.

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