Ronald Acuña

[Siberian13]

Originally Posted by pgisback

Same exact intentional hit batter, different times, different result. When men were allowed to be men. Throw the pitcher out, that’s all that is needed.

Good job Nolan!

[jswest18]

Originally Posted by NeedChapmans

Yes, the difference is one sends a much louder message.

One of the beautiful things about the National League (not in this game however) is that the pitcher has to hit for himself. It's unfortunate that Urena was thrown out so quickly, his spot was due up in the next half and I think the game would have taken care of itself. I believe that one of the overlooked arguments against the DH is this very scenario; pitchers get held accountable more often in the NL when things like this happen.

Originally Posted by NeedChapmans

I don't think what he did was all that terrible of an idea. It's unfortunate the circumstances led to his ejection; I would have loved to see how he followed that pitch up (and how the Braves followed up)...But I'm interested to see if Urena's plan for today extended beyond one pitch and what the Braves would have done with him in the box.

No matter what side you fall on in this argument, the umps made the right move when they tossed him. Because of the current rules policing intentionally hitting a batter and retaliation, the what if scenario you presented doesn't fit "old school" retaliation any longer. IF they had not tossed him and allowed him to stay they would have created basically an impossible situation for the Braves and it would have put them at a disadvantage two times in that game and also in the near future.

If they don't toss Urena there, the umps issue a warning to both sides and the game moves on. What that does though is force the Braves to make a decision on whether they should retaliate when Urena hits (which would have been in the 2nd inning), causing them to lose their starter and further taxing their pen during the middle of stretch where they are playing 22 games in 20 days without a day off. In hitting him they lose their starter this game and next, they've already lost Acuna for the game and maybe longer and they put their bullpen in a terrible position moving forward over this stretch.

It's a no win situation for the Braves at that point and the game doesn't really have the chance to "take care of itself." If the Braves don't hit him then his actions go unchecked. If the Braves do hit him to "teach" him, they've plunked a pitcher in the midst of a terrible personal and team season with little on the line other than his pride, which apparently didn't mean a lot to him, and they have hamstrung themselves in the middle of a playoff race. Either way the Braves lose badly on the exchange.

[NeedChapmans]

Originally Posted by jswest18

No matter what side you fall on in this argument, the umps made the right move when they tossed him.

So any leadoff hitter that gets hit in the 1st inning should result in an automatic pitcher ejection? A protected class of players? (Like QB's)

[mlbfan10]

Originally Posted by NeedChapmans

So any leadoff hitter that gets hit in the 1st inning should result in an automatic pitcher ejection? A protected class of players? (Like QB's)

If it's not on purpose great. But your fooling yourself here. My comment isn't to make you mad or angry or even insight a negative reaction. My point is if it's deliberate and if you don't think so fine but it was and the proper action was taken. Looking forward to hearing about Ureña's suspension.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[rcmb3220]

Originally Posted by NeedChapmans

So any leadoff hitter that gets hit in the 1st inning should result in an automatic pitcher ejection? A protected class of players? (Like QB's)

Straw men everywhere!

[shayscards79]

I can't say whether it was intentional or not.... and maybe someone mentioned this already.

Why risk a brawl, ejection or suspension when you could just intentionally walk Acuna? Isn't that what most sane teams do when they don't want to pitch to a batter?

[jswest18]

Originally Posted by NeedChapmans

So any leadoff hitter that gets hit in the 1st inning should result in an automatic pitcher ejection? A protected class of players? (Like QB's)

No and you chose to ignore my entire argument for the sake of this statement which was not at all what I was implying. You're a smart guy. You know that's not what I was saying. I was being specific to this scenario.

The climate has changed in MLB and their are more rules policing intentional hits and retaliation. Twenty-five years ago, an NL pitcher hits Acuna in this exact same scenario, he knows he's going to get thrown at his next at bat. The other team knows they will because there were no pre-pitch warnings and no automatic ejections for retaliation and no future suspensions handed down for the pitcher. You're argument that the game would take care of itself doesn't hold true as much any longer and certainly not in this situation.

[NeedChapmans]

Originally Posted by mlbfan10

If it's not on purpose great. But your fooling yourself here. My comment isn't to make you mad or angry or even insight a negative reaction. My point is if it's deliberate and if you don't think so fine but it was and the proper action was taken. Looking forward to hearing about Ureña's suspension.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by jswest18

No and you chose to ignore my entire argument for the sake of this statement which was not at all what I was implying. You're a smart guy. You know that's not what I was saying. I was being specific to this scenario.

The climate has changed in MLB and their are more rules policing intentional hits and retaliation. Twenty-five years ago, an NL pitcher hits Acuna in this exact same scenario, he knows he's going to get thrown at his next at bat. The other team knows they will because there were no pre-pitch warnings and no automatic ejections for retaliation and no future suspensions handed down for the pitcher. You're argument that the game would take care of itself doesn't hold true as much any longer and certainly not in this situation.

If you guys want to go get inside of a pitchers head and define intent; have at it. It's a losing proposition. Should pitchers get ejected more often for throwing at players because they show "intent", then they'll simply do a better job of making it look less intentional.

This is baseball. Unless the rules are changed, Urena has every right to drill Acuna whenever he wants. 1st inning, 4th inning, 12th inning, it doesn't matter. And he also must face the repercussions of his actions. Forgive me for stating the obvious, but pitchers are allowed to hit batters. Intentionally or otherwise. And if there's a PR backlash against him for his actions, then fine. Understandible.

This moral high ground people are shouting down from seems ridiculous to me. This is a baseball game for God's sake.

[mlbfan10]

Originally Posted by NeedChapmans

If you guys want to go get inside of a pitchers head and define intent; have at it. It's a losing proposition. Should pitchers get ejected more often for throwing at players because they show "intent", then they'll simply do a better job of making it look less intentional.

This is baseball. Unless the rules are changed, Urena has every right to drill Acuna whenever he wants. 1st inning, 4th inning, 12th inning, it doesn't matter. And he also must face the repercussions of his actions. Forgive me for stating the obvious, but pitchers are allowed to hit batters. Intentionally or otherwise. And if there's a PR backlash against him for his actions, then fine. Understandible.

This moral high ground people are shouting down from seems ridiculous to me. This is a baseball game for God's sake.

Exactly it's a game, no need for that in it

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[imbluestreak23]

Originally Posted by NeedChapmans

So any leadoff hitter that gets hit in the 1st inning should result in an automatic pitcher ejection? A protected class of players? (Like QB's)

Comparing this situation and the clear intent to ANY lead off situation is intentionally being dishonest. There is a crystal clear delineation in hitting a batter who has 8HR in 8 games with your fastest pitch of the year and staring him down lie he’s having a dick measuring contest vs. “oh, I didn’t warm up that well and this one went astray, my bad bro.”

I’m all for differing opinions but to have an opposing opinion in this situation is completely irrational.

[imbluestreak23]

Originally Posted by NeedChapmans

If you guys want to go get inside of a pitchers head and define intent; have at it. It's a losing proposition. Should pitchers get ejected more often for throwing at players because they show "intent", then they'll simply do a better job of making it look less intentional.

This is baseball. Unless the rules are changed, Urena has every right to drill Acuna whenever he wants. 1st inning, 4th inning, 12th inning, it doesn't matter. And he also must face the repercussions of his actions. Forgive me for stating the obvious, but pitchers are allowed to hit batters. Intentionally or otherwise. And if there's a PR backlash against him for his actions, then fine. Understandible.

This moral high ground people are shouting down from seems ridiculous to me. This is a baseball game for God's sake.

This is baseball, the hitter has every right to charge the mound and beat the pitchers ass with a baseball bat. That would stop this antiquated backwoods nonsense.

[NeedChapmans]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

Comparing this situation and the clear intent to ANY lead off situation is intentionally being dishonest. There is a crystal clear delineation in hitting a batter who has 8HR in 8 games with your fastest pitch of the year and staring him down lie he’s having a dick measuring contest vs. “oh, I didn’t warm up that well and this one went astray, my bad bro.”

I’m all for differing opinions but to have an opposing opinion in this situation is completely irrational.

Then the issue you take is not with hitting batters, but hitting Acuna. Specifically, your protected class are hot hitters that pitchers cannot get out.

[Siberian13]

Urena seems like a wild pitcher anyways. He led the league in hit batters last year and has a good amount this year. Is he an angry person or just wild?

[mlbfan10]

Originally Posted by Siberian13

Urena seems like a wild pitcher anyways. He led the league in hit batters last year and has a good amount this year. Is he an angry person or just wild?

Why not both?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[RossOK]

Originally Posted by NeedChapmans

Then the issue you take is not with hitting batters, but hitting Acuna. Specifically, your protected class are hot hitters that pitchers cannot get out.

No, he was pointing out how ludicrous it is to claim that Ureña hitting Acuña wasn't intentional.

[youseekyoda421]

Originally Posted by rcmb3220

Straw men everywhere!

This thread is fantastic! I'm certainly enjoying reading the debate (what are we debating again?).

Originally Posted by NeedChapmans

So any leadoff hitter that gets hit in the 1st inning should result in an automatic pitcher ejection? A protected class of players? (Like QB's)

No, but...

Originally Posted by jswest18

No and you chose to ignore my entire argument for the sake of this statement which was not at all what I was implying. You're a smart guy. You know that's not what I was saying. I was being specific to this scenario.

The climate has changed in MLB and their are more rules policing intentional hits and retaliation. Twenty-five years ago, an NL pitcher hits Acuna in this exact same scenario, he knows he's going to get thrown at his next at bat. The other team knows they will because there were no pre-pitch warnings and no automatic ejections for retaliation and no future suspensions handed down for the pitcher. You're argument that the game would take care of itself doesn't hold true as much any longer and certainly not in this situation.

"Urena is the fourth starting pitcher in the live-ball era to hit the only batter he faced in a game, according to ESPN Stats & Information data. (Bob Shaw in 1965, Scott Elarton in 2001 and John Lackey in 2009 were the first three.) All four were ejected from the game." from ABC News release So a pitcher that beans the first batter faced has always been ejected. For at least 53 years.

I still want an explanation as to why the Braves manager was ejected before Urena.

[NeedChapmans]

Originally Posted by youseekyoda421

So a pitcher that beans the first batter faced has always been ejected. For at least 53 years.

No, I don't believe this is true. This has happened four times in MLB history, but there are likely hundreds of instances where hitters get an HBP to start, and continue. The statement that "these four guys are the only guys to face one hitter, hit them, and leave" holds true ... because the hundreds of others faced many other hitters.

[prospects]

Now that the outrage has lasted almost a full 24 hours, it is quite clear that the only reason this is a hot topic is because the batter was ronald acuna. If it was Devin Merasco of the mets, nobody would care.

[dbpsooner]

It absolutely has to do with the player and circumstances. You have a 20 year old doing things never done before. The irony for my is a guy like Urena trying to be tough guy by doing something as cowardly as this. You want to be a man, end the streak by being better than him and get him out.

[TheWrightStuff]

Same as if a pitcher wanted to end Joe Dimaggios 56 game hit streak after 6 games by beaning him in the head or elbow. Although back then, in retaliation the pitcher probably would have been beat with a bat.


Or if in the 9th inning of a perfect game, a batter intentionaly flung his bat trying to take out the pitcher. That's not baseball.

Maybe as cosmic justice, Urena one day will be pitching a not hitter and that is exactly what will happen.

[RossOK]

Originally Posted by prospects

Now that the outrage has lasted almost a full 24 hours, it is quite clear that the only reason this is a hot topic is because the batter was ronald acuna. If it was Devin Merasco of the mets, nobody would care.

I mean, if Devin Mesaraco had hit a homer in 5 straight games and the first pitch he saw was aimed at his ribs, I think people would care. That's the whole reason Ureña plunked him — he's on fire.

[Wiseguy917]

Originally Posted by dbpsooner

It absolutely has to do with the player and circumstances. You have a 20 year old doing things never done before. The irony for my is a guy like Urena trying to be tough guy by doing something as cowardly as this. You want to be a man, end the streak by being better than him and get him out.

Not very cowardly...he pitches in the NL...He knew what he was doing and you better bet he’s ready for retaliation when the time comes. Guys got nuts if you ask me....Not like some AL pitchers.....

[jswest18]

Originally Posted by NeedChapmans

If you guys want to go get inside of a pitchers head and define intent; have at it. It's a losing proposition. Should pitchers get ejected more often for throwing at players because they show "intent", then they'll simply do a better job of making it look less intentional.

This is baseball. Unless the rules are changed, Urena has every right to drill Acuna whenever he wants. 1st inning, 4th inning, 12th inning, it doesn't matter. And he also must face the repercussions of his actions. Forgive me for stating the obvious, but pitchers are allowed to hit batters. Intentionally or otherwise. And if there's a PR backlash against him for his actions, then fine. Understandible.

This moral high ground people are shouting down from seems ridiculous to me. This is a baseball game for God's sake.

First off, there are very few people who have taken an objective view of the plunking last night and came away questioning if it was intentional or not. I don't think it took much getting in his head given the circumstances and the pitch.

Second, I haven't for one moment indicated that pitcher's should always be thrown out for hitting a lead off batter. AGAIN, my statements were purely about the game and the at bat last night and how the umpires made the right call.

Third, you're just flat out wrong. Pitchers are NOT allowed to hit a batter whenever they want intentionally or not. The rules HAVE in fact changed which is part of the whole point of my argument. It's not just a PR issue, it is also an ejection and future suspension handed down by the MLB.

Fourth, none of what I've said has been on the side of a "moral high ground" argument so I'm just going to assume that was meant for other comments.

[Siberian13]

Originally Posted by RossOK

I mean, if Devin Mesaraco had hit a homer in 5 straight games and the first pitch he saw was aimed at his ribs, I think people would care. That's the whole reason Ureña plunked him — he's on fire.

No one cares about the Mets. It wouldn't be a big deal

[imbluestreak23]

Originally Posted by NeedChapmans

Then the issue you take is not with hitting batters, but hitting Acuna. Specifically, your protected class are hot hitters that pitchers cannot get out.

Incorrect. Your protected class are pitchers that have intent to hit batters, not all pitchers who intentionally or unintentionally hit batters.

Intentionally hitting batters, hot or not, should be banished from the game. Retaliation, acceptable if MLB isn’t going to do anything about it. But that first time should be treated as a PED first time offense.