9 More Trimmed 2009 Trout Elite Extra Edition Autos Sold via PWCC

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by discostu

Measuring culpability here...yes, there are 4 parties that are culpable and all at varying levels.
...
In a distant last, the consumer. The last person holding the hot potato is never a good position. The consumer is left holding the bag that was pushed through two "expert" level entities that should provide some sort of checks and balances that the item they are representing as unaltered, and described accurately is indeed that. (Nothing to gain, a lot to lose.)

The consumer can be said to be most culpable for literally buying into an unsustainable system, steadily driving demand in that system, and making it into something it was never meant to be or ever could be.

The consumer has yet to adequately recognize, or perhaps care, that the system almost entirely relies on a grader's opinion which, again, has proved to be fallible and able to be manipulated over and over again...until the consumer wakes up, nothing is going to change and grading will remain a mess.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

The consumer can be said to be most culpable for literally buying into an unsustainable system, steadily driving demand in that system, and making it into something it was never meant to be or ever could be.

The consumer has yet to adequately recognize, or perhaps care, that the system almost entirely relies on a grader's opinion which, again, has proved to be fallible and able to be manipulated over and over again...until the consumer wakes up, nothing is going to change and grading will remain a mess.

Absolutely not. All sorts of people buy graded cards. If my wife buys a graded card for me that turns out to be trimmed, should we blame her for not doing her research?

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by REGGIE206

I find it so weird that PSA can be so strict on 1993 SP Jeter size, but can’t catch these trimmings?

I have always found this extremely odd too Reggie.



They have rejected I'm sure HUNDREDS of Jeter's for being "undersized or not correct size" yet cannot detect what appears to be blatantly obvious trimming?
Is anyone else here calling this BS?


I'm not a tinfoil hat kind of guy but this has me reaching for the Reynolds wrap.

[JrFinest]

Originally Posted by blackbears86

I have always found this extremely odd too Reggie.



They have rejected I'm sure HUNDREDS of Jeter's for being "undersized or not correct size" yet cannot detect what appears to be blatantly obvious trimming?
Is anyone else here calling this BS?


I'm not a tinfoil hat kind of guy but this has me reaching for the Reynolds wrap.

I just wonder how many of those they rejected... just ended up being resubmitted and slabbed regardless.

[imbluestreak23]

Originally Posted by Astros19

Eh, I'm not so sure of that. There's been a few replies from representatives of entities being accuse. Pretty sure if they felt there was no need to put out the fire, they would have just moved on. I personally think we're just seeing the top layer of the onion being peeled.
Granted, there's a multitude of collectors who don't frequent this message board, but in the day and age of the internet/social media it doesn't take long for a wildfire to spread.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

PWCC initially responded to clear the indirect accusations that their employee was involved in unscrupulous behavior, and to confirm that they actively remove items brought to light, which is great. Unfortunately they do not remove every item, which does not meet the unreasonable expectations of members on this board.

My only point here is, since we are all making clever analogies: PSA/BGS/SGC are the conductors on this train. There is no point at yelling at each individual box car, or even the caboose for speeding to fast on the railway when they aren't driving on the tracks.

-Kill PWCC/Ricky, trimmers will find alternative consigners/eBay IDs. Problem not solved
-Kill the trimmers. That's done nothing, because people like Kevin Burge to my knowledge are still free citizens. I heard his name as a hobby scammer on the old BMB and nothing has been done. Problem not solved
-Take all the pictures you want of serial numbered cards, how many Trout updates is that going to catch? Problem not solved
-Create a serial numbered database. "" ""
-Request that the grading companies ban certain accounts. They will just start submitting under their 90 year old grandmas name who happens to live in a nursing home. Problem not solved.

The grading companies hold the keys to the castle. The only way to "fix" this is to grade cards using a computer algorithm that is capable of detecting not only manufacturer miscuts but also can mathematically prove that a card is trimmed. This is the 21st century, and we on this board, at least for me, am classified as human. This CAN be done.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

And yet there continues to be record sales, volume, and pricing for PSA 10s. I just had my BEST PSA graded cosignment order via probstein within the past 48 hours ever.

You're going to be fighting a long while. I applaud your efforts.

You are correct about the record sales, both in terms of volume and prices. Lots of new money (many of whom are 30-somethings wistful for cardboard nostalgia) is pouring in. On the surface the hobby has never been better.

However, PSA is paying attention because they know the risk this trimming scandal possesses. I've had two trusted sources independently confirm this. Changes are coming. It will take some time, but I assure you this is not beating a dead horse.

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

PWCC initially responded to clear the indirect accusations that their employee was involved in unscrupulous behavior...

If you read Jesse's response in the Members Feedback thread, nothing was actually cleared.

Though that doesn't pertain to this thread.

[imbluestreak23]

Originally Posted by superdan49

You are correct about the record sales, both in terms of volume and prices. Lots of new money (many of whom are 30-somethings wistful for cardboard nostalgia) is pouring in. On the surface the hobby has never been better.

However, PSA is paying attention because they know the risk this trimming scandal possesses. I've had two trusted sources independently confirm this. Changes are coming. It will take some time, but I assure you this is not beating a dead horse.

That is GREAT news! Hopefully they have ordered their new scanners!

By beating a dead horse, I mean continuing to advocate for antiquated strategies that have NEVER worked. If the grading companies can implement systems that squeeze the problems from the root, that is FANTASTIC

[blackbears86]

[QUOTE=superdan49;14609750]You are correct about the record sales, both in terms of volume and prices. Lots of new money (many of whom are 30-somethings wistful for cardboard nostalgia) is pouring in. On the surface the hobby has never been better.

However, PSA is paying attention because they know the risk this trimming scandal possesses. I've had two trusted sources independently confirm this. Changes are coming. It will take some time, but I assure you this is not beating a dead horse.[/QUOTE]




If this is true, (and I really hope it is) this is fantastic news.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by superdan49

You are correct about the record sales, both in terms of volume and prices. Lots of new money (many of whom are 30-somethings wistful for cardboard nostalgia) is pouring in. On the surface the hobby has never been better.

However, PSA is paying attention because they know the risk this trimming scandal possesses. I've had two trusted sources independently confirm this. Changes are coming. It will take some time, but I assure you this is not beating a dead horse.

anything from "the other company"?

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

anything from "the other company"?

Probably have to seek input at the Industry Summit.

[RYBOWSKI97]

Originally Posted by SaveMeTheGum

Out the trimmers
Out the graders
Out the consignors

Educate the buyers.

These should be the goals.

this is the most level headed and true post of all the trimming threads. so many people here are thinking its a witch hunt and they are afraid to lose money. thats not it at all. most people in here are commenting because they care that this crap is going on and want it to stop. i dont care if u are a reseller, buyer, collector, prospector etc.....the shadiness going on is bad for everyone. how anyone can defend a company who is making money selling cards on a consignment basis with multiple trimmed/ fraudulent cards and obvious shilling is beyond me. if you think pwcc or probstein cares about anything other than their bottom line you are not very educated in business.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

anything from "the other company"?

Nada.

[Kabuki]

Panini's unlicensed baseball cards are junk anyway. Would never buy them.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

If you read Jesse's response in the Members Feedback thread, nothing was actually cleared.

Though that doesn't pertain to this thread.

as you can tell, they just conveniently skip over this.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by Kabuki

Panini's unlicensed baseball cards are junk anyway. Would never buy them.

Nobody is trimming those. So if you are looking for safe, unaltered baseball cards, buy Panini.

[1stBowman]

Originally Posted by JoeAdam

Agreed, but as someone else already stated the person trimming (not a crime) is not the same person doing the grading and instilling the belief in others.

If the person trimming the card is oblivious as to why he's being asked to do it ( highly unlikely) then ok. But if he's aware of why he's doing it then he's guilty of conspiring to defraud.


I think if LE were serious about it they could make an example out of someone, however, sports card fraud is probably low on the list of priorities for them currently. You never know, though. If enough noise is made, they might look into it, if they haven't already.

[SaveMeTheGum]

Anyone see PWCC's return disclaimer?

EDIT: This is the full script from the return section -- I wonder if evidence of trimming is a justifiable reason...

"We at PWCC are not professional graders so we trust in the reputation and opinion of 3rd party professional graders. Professional grading is subjective and different 3rd party graders will often disagree over the grading on a single card. Such a disagreement is not a justifiable reason for a return with PWCC.".

[cking]

[pewe]

BTW for any of you entrepreneurially minded, this is a perfect time to build a competitive grading service vs the big boys.

And do it completely differently using tools I’m sure they would struggle deeply to use.

Like “artificial intelligence” “image recognition” etc... all of which sound like scary words, but the tech is mostly plug and play for someone willing to put the effort in to learn it (the hard math was done by someone else) and the workflow you would implement is also quite straightforward. I could tell you which to look at (https://towardsdatascience.com/train...e-8ed0bdd8d9ba)

On top of producing a more consistent result, and catching trimmers, they could execute the process with less human labor and faster! Crazy to me seeing folks in here saying they are using humans to do this grading work... this is exactly what computers and computer vision is better at.

Take the free business idea and run with it happy to give advice for anyone who decides to take the plunge

Beyond tech your biggest issue will be building credibility, but with this scandal there is a very very easy way to do that, too... it is a strategy called “content marketing” and is cheap and very effective




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mattglet]

Originally Posted by pewe

BTW for any of you entrepreneurially minded, this is a perfect time to build a competitive grading service vs the big boys.

And do it completely differently using tools I’m sure they would struggle deeply to use.

Like “artificial intelligence” “image recognition” etc... all of which sound like scary words, but the tech is mostly plug and play for someone willing to put the effort in to learn it (the hard math was done by someone else) and the workflow you would implement is also quite straightforward. I could tell you which to look at (https://towardsdatascience.com/train...e-8ed0bdd8d9ba)

On top of producing a more consistent result, and catching trimmers, they could execute the process with less human labor and faster! Crazy to me seeing folks in here saying they are using humans to do this grading work... this is exactly what computers and computer vision is better at.

Take the free business idea and run with it happy to give advice for anyone who decides to take the plunge

Beyond tech your biggest issue will be building credibility, but with this scandal there is a very very easy way to do that, too... it is a strategy called “content marketing” and is cheap and very effective

Your abstract idea is good, your reductionist plan is less good There is a whole lot more involved than "plug and play" - it will take literally years to build up a system that is 100% successful. But if someone is able to successfully tackle that elephant, they will be market leaders for sure.

[Cubsfanp]

Originally Posted by mattglet

Your abstract idea is good, your reductionist plan is less good There is a whole lot more involved than "plug and play" - it will take literally years to build up a system that is 100% successful. But if someone is able to successfully tackle that elephant, they will be market leaders for sure.

Agreed. If the technology was readily available "Plug and Play", we would all have the ability to grade ourselves at home.

Its a good idea i hope someone could hop into, but realistically one of the current TPGs could implement this a heck of a lot easier than anyone out there.

[mattglet]

Originally Posted by Cubsfanp

Agreed. If the technology was readily available "Plug and Play", we would all have the ability to grade ourselves at home.

Its a good idea i hope someone could hop into, but realistically one of the current TPGs could implement this a heck of a lot easier than anyone out there.

I actually don't think that's a reasonable assumption. TPGs are not software companies. The people that will be most successful implementing a proper solution will have advanced Computer Science degrees and know how to build enterprise level software. TPGs are not those people

The biggest advantages PSA and BGS have are predominantly 1) brand awareness within the market and 2) (before the trimming scandal) trustworthiness built upon that brand awareness. All they did was establish the rules around making grades based on damage level (or lack thereof) and built the encapsulation methodologies - both of which could be developed by a high school student who has access to an ultrasonic welder.

[Cubsfanp]

Originally Posted by mattglet

I actually don't think that's a reasonable assumption. TPGs are not software companies. The people that will be most successful implementing a proper solution will have advanced Computer Science degrees and know how to build enterprise level software. TPGs are not those people

The biggest advantages PSA and BGS have are predominantly 1) brand awareness within the market and 2) (before the trimming scandal) trustworthiness built upon that brand awareness. All they did was establish the rules around making grades based on damage level (or lack thereof) and built the encapsulation methodologies - both of which could be developed by a high school student who has access to an ultrasonic welder.

Agree. My point on it being easier for them is the already established brand awareness and customer base.

Adding Technology and innovation is simply a dedicated investment step away.

[mattglet]

Originally Posted by Cubsfanp

Agree. My point on it being easier for them is the already established brand awareness and customer base.

Adding Technology and innovation is simply a dedicated investment step away.

Ah yeah, good point. I was caught up in the "decreasing reputation == someone else can/should jump in and strike while the iron is hot" thought process. The brand awareness (no matter what kind of beating it's taking right now) and built in customer base should not be underestimated - for now.