PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc - Page 5

coachnip13 · 05-01-2019, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rooftop

They know now and its still up for auction

So you agree that they had no way of knowing.

Rooftop · 05-01-2019, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coachnip13

So you agree that they had no way of knowing.

With their track record and who they have employed there, absolutely not

coachnip13 · 05-01-2019, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rooftop

With their track record and who they have employed there, absolutely not

Okay, tell me how they had access to the raw photos shown in the original post. Thanks in advance.

psd2k10 · 05-01-2019, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corndog

Shadow caused by the corner being bent upward.
The light source is to the left of the card. You can see a shadow on the right edge and no shadow on the left.

He said a shadow lmao. Thats dirt/stain dude!

Archangel1775 · 05-01-2019, 11:49 AM

What was removed from the original condition? The staining?

I take it that was the result of the soaking and pressing?

So none of the cardboard itself was cut or removed?

astrotrevor · 05-01-2019, 12:47 PM

Here is the reply from PWCC.

KhalDrogo · 05-01-2019, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by astrotrevor

Here is the reply from PWCC.

WOW!!

superdan49 · 05-01-2019, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

What was removed from the original condition? The staining?

I take it that was the result of the soaking and pressing?

So none of the cardboard itself was cut or removed?

There is debate as to whether it was a stain or a shadow in the upper left corner of the back of the Mantle when it was raw. OP is the only one to have seen the card raw, and he says the corner was "very dirty." By the way, this is a separate issue from questions raised by the repair of the corners/edges of this particular Mantle.

Between the card being sold raw and then graded the first time and sold at Heritage, the stain in the corner has disappeared. So how was the dirt removed? Soaking? Bleaching and recoloring? Removal of dirty card stock and replacement with card stock from another 1952 Topps card?

There are companies out there that perform these services:
http://www.lapapergroup.com/services.html

When boosting the grade of a 1952 Topps Mantle can be worth five-figure sums of money, do you think less-than-scrupulous individuals would not use such companies? I want to add companies like this do impressive, professional work! It's just that the work isn't disclosed by sellers and is (rightly) considered alteration.

KhalDrogo · 05-01-2019, 03:22 PM

I would like Betsy to respond to her company’s response to the issues raised with this card.

KhalDrogo · 05-01-2019, 05:34 PM

To the top.

cking · 05-01-2019, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

Pressing out creases is not accepted by the vintage community and PSA will give the card an Authentic Altered designation or return it ungraded as Altered Stock.

Then why did they not do this with this card?

corndog · 05-01-2019, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cking

Then why did they not do this with this card?

mjohnatgt · 05-01-2019, 06:11 PM

You already know the answer: they did not detect it.

kyleuk21 · 05-01-2019, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by astrotrevor

Here is the reply from PWCC.

Lol wow - completely ignoring the fact that it has been trimmed just because it apparently measures correctly relative to others.

KhalDrogo · 05-01-2019, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyleuk21

Lol wow - completely ignoring the fact that it has been trimmed just because it apparently measures correctly relative to others.

The trimming seems questionable. The pressing or soaking seems irrefutable.

Tony27 · 05-01-2019, 06:53 PM

The wagner sells for more but that is truely the grail card.. Ill take it

Tony27 · 05-01-2019, 06:56 PM

Does anyone know the highest grade mantle? And Mays bowman gets no respect.... Think about it

coachnip13 · 05-01-2019, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyleuk21

Lol wow - completely ignoring the fact that it has been trimmed just because it apparently measures correctly relative to others.

There has not been any "fact" established that the card has been trimmed.

mjohnatgt · 05-01-2019, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony27

Does anyone know the highest grade mantle? And Mays bowman gets no respect.... Think about it

There are 3 PSA 10 1952 Mantles; one is owned by the Diamondbacks owner Ken Kendrick. All three are from the Mr. Mint find of unopened boxes (cases?) of the set.

Tony27 · 05-01-2019, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coachnip13

There has not been any "fact" established that the card has been trimmed.

Even if it was so what? Lmao yall arr crazy... Anyone one would want that card regaurdless...... Its pretty laughabl to say you would addddd that to your collection....

Archangel1775 · 05-01-2019, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

There are 3 PSA 10 1952 Mantles; one is owned by the Diamondbacks owner Ken Kendrick. All three are from the Mr. Mint find of unopened boxes (cases?) of the set.

It was a case, at least partial, and a ton of packs served on a silver platter. There is a story on it somewhere.

coachnip13 · 05-01-2019, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony27

Even if it was so what? Lmao yall arr crazy... Anyone one would want that card regaurdless...... Its pretty laughabl to say you would addddd that to your collection....

Try to stay within the context of the conversation.

yankee98 · 05-01-2019, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

It was a case, at least partial, and a ton of packs served on a silver platter. There is a story on it somewhere.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...-card-history/

Can you imagine being presented with these? Wow! I think he paid $125k, would be millions just for the Mantle's today.

PWCC Marketplace · 05-02-2019, 07:59 PM

Later this month we will publish our Marketplace Tenets which, among other things, touches on the differences between alteration and conservation. Until then, I will summarize why this card is still live in our auction.

In our view, there's a difference between conservation and alteration. Conservation is any act which returns a card closer to its as-manufactured condition and does not render the card artificially different from the as-manufactured state. Removal of dirt, glue, pencil marks, wax, etc. are good examples of conservation, so long as it's done in a way that doesn't affect the natural properties of a card.

Alteration is very different from conservation in that it generally involves the addition of a foreign matter to a card (i.e. recoloring or corner rebuilding) or the removal of material (i.e. trimming, erasing print, etc).

The ‘52 Mantle in question shows no signs of alteration based on these definitions, so it is an acceptable asset to be sold on the marketplace.

ThoseBackPages · 05-02-2019, 08:02 PM

oh, this wont end well

05-01-2019, 11:49 AM	#105
Archangel1775 Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Cali baby! Posts: 22,185	What was removed from the original condition? The staining? I take it that was the result of the soaking and pressing? So none of the cardboard itself was cut or removed? __________________ *There are the intangibles that set someone apart from the pack.So the blur isn't your inability to see his greatness, it's merely the inability to measure it.*

05-01-2019, 03:22 PM	#109
KhalDrogo Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 41,716	I would like Betsy to respond to her company’s response to the issues raised with this card. __________________ I love PSA!

05-01-2019, 05:34 PM	#110
KhalDrogo Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 41,716	To the top. __________________ I love PSA!

05-02-2019, 08:02 PM	#125
ThoseBackPages Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Long Island Posts: 91,379 ThoseBackPages	oh, this wont end well __________________ Pumpers Paradise #YouCryIBuy Four things that we cannot change each others minds about: Politics, Religion, Third Party Grading, and 2021 Bowman's Best Rookie Cards

05-01-2019, 12:47 PM	#106
astrotrevor Member Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 417	Here is the reply from PWCC.

05-01-2019, 06:11 PM	#113
mjohnatgt Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Niceville, FL Posts: 14,924 mjohnatgt mjohnatgt	You already know the answer: they did not detect it.

05-01-2019, 06:53 PM	#116
Tony27 Banned Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 151	The wagner sells for more but that is truely the grail card.. Ill take it

05-01-2019, 06:56 PM	#117
Tony27 Banned Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 151	Does anyone know the highest grade mantle? And Mays bowman gets no respect.... Think about it

05-02-2019, 07:59 PM	#124
PWCC Marketplace Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Oregon Posts: 56 pwcc_auctions	Later this month we will publish our Marketplace Tenets which, among other things, touches on the differences between alteration and conservation. Until then, I will summarize why this card is still live in our auction. In our view, there's a difference between conservation and alteration. Conservation is any act which returns a card closer to its as-manufactured condition and does not render the card artificially different from the as-manufactured state. Removal of dirt, glue, pencil marks, wax, etc. are good examples of conservation, so long as it's done in a way that doesn't affect the natural properties of a card. Alteration is very different from conservation in that it generally involves the addition of a foreign matter to a card (i.e. recoloring or corner rebuilding) or the removal of material (i.e. trimming, erasing print, etc). The ‘52 Mantle in question shows no signs of alteration based on these definitions, so it is an acceptable asset to be sold on the marketplace.