Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[cking]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

I’m thinking PWCC already strategically positioned itself so that it would benefit most if the hobby were to come around to the definition PWCC wants everyone to use.

This will never happen. Thats exactly why they do not put the information in the listings.

They know it will stop people from buying or make them bid lower.

Another question for PWCC if they are reading. And you know you are.

You say its ok to perfrom 'conservation' on cards. I come to this conclusion based on your post in this thread.

You say its ok to sell cards that have had 'conservation' performed on them. I come to this conclusion because well.....you sell cards that have been 'conserved'

If you truly stand behind your belief that this practice is acceptable then why is it NOT OK to put the information in your listing if a card has had 'conservation' performed on it.

You are saying its ok to do it. Be a man and put that information out there for potential bidders to see. After all, if its ok to do it, why are you hiding that you are doing it by not putting that info in the listings? Step up to the plate my man.

[cypher]

How can a multi million dollar company not even use the right term? Others have already pointed out the term they are looking for is restoration. Old cars are restored all the time. When they are sold the restorations performed are listed in detail and the sale price is affected by them.

[KhalDrogo]

They don’t put it in the auctions because their definition doesn’t fly with what PSA has deemed acceptable to grade.

Now that PWCC has become the moral authority in the hobby, I think it’s time for a comment from PSA. PSA cannot be okay with these alterations. It would destroy what they have built, and Collector’s Universe has little room for error.

[GatorPie]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

They don’t put it in the auctions because their definition doesn’t fly with what PSA has deemed acceptable to grade.

Now that PWCC has become the moral authority in the hobby, I think it’s time for a comment from PSA. PSA cannot be okay with these alterations. It would destroy what they have built, and Collector’s Universe has little room for error.

PSA isn't going to say a damn thing. Say what you want about PWCC, but at least they are commenting on the situation. The grading companies are going to remain completely silent.

By the way, you are by far the most critical of PWCC on this board. Do you have PSA cards in your collection? If so, are you going to sell them all off?

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by GatorPie

PSA isn't going to say a damn thing. Say what you want about PWCC, but at least they are commenting on the situation. The grading companies are going to remain completely silent.

By the way, you are by far the most critical of PWCC on this board. Do you have PSA cards in your collection? If so, are you going to sell them all off?

If you would bother to read the threads, you would have seen my stance here. I own PSA and BGS. I use both services, mostly for PC purposes, but plenty to resell also. Despite some rumblings, there has been no evidence that either company is in cahoots with the individuals altering cards. Once there is evidence presented, I will change my tune. I don't expect the grading companies to catch every single altered card. That is not realistic. But I do think they should do a better job than what they are currently doing.

I am glad you see me as the most critical. Someone has to do it, or these issues just fade away. I'm encouraged by what just a few members here have accomplished in less than 6 months.

[GatorPie]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

If you would bother to read the threads, you would have seen my stance here. I own PSA and BGS. I use both services, mostly for PC purposes, but plenty to resell also. Despite some rumblings, there has been no evidence that either company is in cahoots with the individuals altering cards. Once there is evidence presented, I will change my tune. I don't expect the grading companies to catch every single altered card. That is not realistic. But I do think they should do a better job than what they are currently doing.

So what you're saying is that there is clear evidence that PWCC is in cahoots with those who are altering cards? I haven't seen that clear evidence presented yet.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I just think there are some unrealistic expectations about what is going to happen to PWCC. The board can (and has) done a service by pointing out evidence of trimmed cards so PWCC can take them down, which they have been.

And no, I don't work for PWCC, have no particular love for them or anything like that. And I don't blame anyone who chooses not to buy from them, that's a wonderful right as a consumer. But they are listing 15,000+ cards a month and show no sign of slowing down. They aren't going anywhere.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by GatorPie

So what you're saying is that there is clear evidence that PWCC is in cahoots with those who are altering cards? I haven't seen that clear evidence presented yet.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I just think there are some unrealistic expectations about what is going to happen to PWCC. The board can (and has) done a service by pointing out evidence of trimmed cards so PWCC can take them down, which they have been.

And no, I don't work for PWCC, have no particular love for them or anything like that. And I don't blame anyone who chooses not to buy from them, that's a wonderful right as a consumer. But they are listing 15,000+ cards a month and show no sign of slowing down. They aren't going anywhere.

I didn't say that. I said they are aware this Mantle is altered, and yet they are still selling it, and using their new Tenets to back themselves up.

Does anyone believe that Mantle is not altered?

[GatorPie]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

I didn't say that. I said they are aware this Mantle is altered, and yet they are still selling it, and using their new Tenets to back themselves up.

Does anyone believe that Mantle is not altered?

You're not wrong. That Mantle has been cleaned up, no question about it. And they aren't going to mention that in their listings, I can see where people wouldn't like that. I can certainly see how people would say they wouldn't buy from them anymore.

But other than that, what do you expect to happen? This is where I'm confused. A lot of people seem to think PWCC is going down, heading out of business, and Brent is going to be hauled away in an orange jump suit and shackles. I don't see it. They are going to keep selling thousands of cards of month and people are going to keep buying them.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by GatorPie

You're not wrong. That Mantle has been cleaned up, no question about it. And they aren't going to mention that in their listings, I can see where people wouldn't like that. I can certainly see how people would say they wouldn't buy from them anymore.

But other than that, what do you expect to happen? This is where I'm confused. A lot of people seem to think PWCC is going down, heading out of business, and Brent is going to be hauled away in an orange jump suit and shackles. I don't see it. They are going to keep selling thousands of cards of month and people are going to keep buying them.

I expect the right thing to happen. It may take years, but I have faith that something good will come from all this.

Had it not been for one individual at the end of November providing a tip on two altered Lebron Exquisites, we wouldn't be discussing any of this. An enormous amount of progress has been made, and there's more to come.

[GatorPie]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

I expect the right thing to happen. It may take years, but I have faith that something good will come from all this.

Okay, but what's the right thing to happen? PWCC out of business?

I'm really not trying to bust your balls, just trying to understand the end game here. I admire the passion of the people on this board.

Something good has already come from all this - a number of trimmed cards have been pulled from auctions. And if the trimmers keep seeing that they can't get away with it, they will stop.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by GatorPie

Okay, but what's the right thing to happen? PWCC out of business?

Depends on what the truth is. At the end of the day, I care less about PWCC and more about the individuals doing the alterations. That ground work has already been done though. There's no controversy there. But there is controversy when PWCC decides they're going to redefine what an altered card is.

[Randy Shields]

Originally Posted by PWCC Marketplace

PWCC will soon publish our Marketplace Tenets, which describes the rules of engagement for transacting on the PWCC Marketplace and the commitments and responsibilities of all parties involved. Among other things, the Tenets will describe what cards we will allow to be sold on our marketplace and will draw a distinction between cards that were altered and cards that were conserved. Cards that are proven altered through physical evidence are not allowed to be sold, while cards that are proven conserved are indeed allowed to be sold.

In an effort to define an enforceable PWCC policy, we want to open up the dialogue with the community to allow for feedback before our official Tenets are published. Acceptable forms of conservation exist in all collectibles markets, ranging from coins to comics to fine art, and we feel it’s time the trading card market better defines a stance on what is acceptable conservation. The following is a draft of our current understanding of majority opinion, and this is subject to edit.

Conservation. PWCC believes conservation, as defined, to be healthy, sustainable, and supportive of the marketplace and the investors and collectors who participate. Assets that have been conserved can be sold on the PWCC Marketplace.

Conservation is defined as an act which returns an asset closer to its as-manufactured condition but does not otherwise enhance or artificially distance the asset beyond the as-manufactured status. An act which removes a foreign substance from an asset and does so in a way which doesn’t otherwise alter the condition of the as-manufactured product is usually considered acceptable and generally renders the asset worthy of professional grading. Dirt, glue, writing, wax and other foreign substances can be removed from an asset and the result is considered acceptable conservation, so long as the professional Third-Party Authenticators agree the asset is void of unnatural aspects induced as a result of the conservation. Lying flat a warped or bent region of a card (i.e. in a screw down holder), so long as it doesn’t disrupt the card’s natural properties, is generally considered acceptable conservation, whereas pressing a card and thereby changing its as-manufactured properties (i.e. thickness of the card stock) is generally not acceptable and may render the card altered. Laying flat a nonplanar corner, crease, or edge, so long as the card stock is not pressed to a state of artificial thickness, is typically acceptable so long as no other unnatural change to the as-manufactured card stock is discernable.

Alteration. PWCC believes alteration, as defined, is damaging to the marketplace. Altered assets cannot be sold on the PWCC Marketplace unless this detail is disclosed during the sale.

Alteration includes any act which meaningfully renders a change to the as-manufactured qualities of the asset, outside of the normal wear and deterioration inherent to circulation. Any purposeful material addition or material removal to or from the as-manufactured asset, outside of normal wear or environmental degradation, is generally considered an alteration. Trimming, recoloring, autograph retracing, rebuilding of corners or other surfaces, swapping of patches, or any other action which distances a card from its as-manufactured attributes is considered an act of alteration. Altered cards which are stated as such in a transparent nature are permitted for sale on the Marketplace.

Alteration is only ever officially determined by the presence of physical evidence. Speculation is not considered evidence. Evidence of alteration can be determined in two different ways; either in technical review by a reputable Third-Party Authenticator, or when digital content asserts beyond a reasonable doubt that an alteration took place (i.e. before and after photos of trimming, recoloring, etc).

Your comments and feedback would be appreciated. The best way to share feedback is to send me a direct email at betsy@pwccmarketplace.com. I will come back onto this thread to gather feedback periodically, but won't be responding to comments actively. Thank you!

"Conservation" vs. "Alteration"?

As I stated on another board this is more like an "Explanation" of "Defecation"

And Betsy, I wouldn't be responding to active comments either if I weren't that good at trying to explain the downright disgusting and nefarious practices your company appears to have been engaged in for quite some time now with this ridiculous, lame and poorly written excuse in an attempt to pacify and keep those almighty dollars flowing.

"For the love of money is the root of all evil."

Certainly doesn't seem to be anything to the contrary here.

[daveyc1]

Betsy, does PWCC plan on disclosing which cards have been ¨conserved¨

I would think if you want to be transparent to your customers, you would want them to have as much knowledge about a potential purchase as possible? No?

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by Rooftop

All that to justify selling a 4.5 Mantle? Hope it was worth it.

In all likelihood this lame distinction will be used to justify much more than the Mantle. Legitimizing crease removal and pressed out corners justifies a whole lot of altered cards.

[runandgun]

I think there are many layers to this problem. Many people are now asking PWCC to post which cards are conserved and which cards are altered. Do you guys really believe people at PWCC have the ability to tell you that? If these cards have somehow passed thorough the hands of the almighty graders at PSA or BGS then why would we assume that a glorified consignment shop is capable of such a task? I assure you that they do not, the only ability they have is slapping a HE sticker on a slab and getting 20% more for it after all that helps everyone get more money, and we consumers fall for it.

The only reason this has become an issue is the digital history that is being provided on numerous cards in the before and after state.

But who is really responsible for this? We can all be upset with those doing the alterations to cardboard and yes these people are smart enough not to sell on their own. They will continue to use outlets such as PWCC and Probstein to remain a ghost. But if more and more of these cards are unearthed with previous history and these consignment shops are forced to dole out refunds that hurt their bottom line maybe they will choose to do less business with those that they 100% know are the problem.

The biggest issue lies with the grading companies. This is who we turn to when we are in doubt whether a card is authentic or unaltered. We all pay a few for their expert opinion and assigned numerical grade which at times is the difference in 10s of thousands of dollars. Yet what we have all learned is that they dont know much more than the rest of us. You can't expect a grader who is making 50K a year to be better than a card alteration operation that is turning millions of dollars annually. They need to get better at their craft, but after nearly 20 years of submissions, and those submission numbers continue to grow at an unprecedented rate (as we have all waited to get our cards back longer than normal), and they continue to look to add (unqualified) staff, does anyone really believe this problem is going to get better?

Dolla, dolla bills!

[Soxfanguy]

Would be a shame if someone told the IRS about the vault

[GatorPie]

Originally Posted by runandgun

The biggest issue lies with the grading companies. This is who we turn to when we are in doubt whether a card is authentic or unaltered. We all pay a few for their expert opinion and assigned numerical grade which at times is the difference in 10s of thousands of dollars. Yet what we have all learned is that they dont know much more than the rest of us. You can't expect a grader who is making 50K a year to be better than a card alteration operation that is turning millions of dollars annually. They need to get better at their craft, but after nearly 20 years of submissions, and those submission numbers continue to grow at an unprecedented rate (as we have all waited to get our cards back longer than normal), and they continue to look to add (unqualified) staff, does anyone really believe this problem is going to get better?

Not with the current pricing and turnaround times, no. You can't expect things to be caught when a grader only has a few minutes with a card, no matter how good he is or how much he makes.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by runandgun

I think there are many layers to this problem. Many people are now asking PWCC to post which cards are conserved and which cards are altered. Do you guys really believe people at PWCC have the ability to tell you that?

Seeing as they are the ones who created this standard, yes.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by Soxfanguy

Would be a shame if someone told the IRS about the vault

Not a federal tax issue.

[chezball]

Originally Posted by Randy Shields

"Conservation" vs. "Alteration"?

As I stated on another board this is more like an "Explanation" of "Defecation"

And Betsy, I wouldn't be responding to active comments either if I weren't that good at trying to explain the downright disgusting and nefarious practices your company appears to have been engaged in for quite some time now with this ridiculous, lame and poorly written excuse in an attempt to pacify and keep those almighty dollars flowing.

"For the love of money is the root of all evil."

Certainly doesn't seem to be anything to the contrary here.

[runandgun]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Seeing as they are the ones who created this standard, yes.

Its simply a deflection. Some semantics that they think we will buy. No one is ever going to post a "card has been altered" that is already in a slab. That would be ridiculous. I am sure it is a black eye to a grading company when history proves they made an egregious error.

[jlzinck]

It's like they channeled Imac in writing this

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by runandgun

Its simply a deflection. Some semantics that they think we will buy. No one is ever going to post a "card has been altered" that is already in a slab. That would be ridiculous. I am sure it is a black eye to a grading company when history proves they made an egregious error.

Oh, they might do it a few times on in-house cards just to create a false track record they can point to down the road if they get into legal trouble. It creates the illusion they were proactive. In my opinion the true proactive measure -- discontinuing certain relationships -- is unlikely to happen.

[yankee98]

PWCC came out with this strong statement defending "conservation" despite the fact that there is zero shortage of cards, even high end cards, which are not restored. This implies strongly to me that they are actively doing businesses with people who traffic in restored cards. They could very easily stay quiet or even say 'we don't want to sell restored cards' but no, they are trying to redefine words to give cover to a controversial practice not at all accepted by collectors.

What a ridiculous statement from PWCC.

[monkeymcgee]

Originally Posted by jlzinck

It's like they channeled Imac in writing this

Thanks for making me spray water everywhere