Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[yankee98]

Originally Posted by Soxfanguy

Would be a shame if someone told the IRS about the vault

More like the state revenue departments. You think the state of New York doesn't know the old "ship it to another state so you don't have to pay sales tax" scam? People have been trying it since the 50's at the high end department stores and jewelry stores, not to mention with art and antiques.

AFAIK, its irrelevant where its shipped, what's relevant is who purchased it. If you live in California, Texas, or New York, or wherever and you purchase something, you are liable for sales tax. Period.

Between the vault and "conservation" PWCC seems pretty scammy. But then again, "the salt of the earth" work there so nothing to see here.

[pspa123]

If they ship it to Oregon, THEY/ebay aren't required to collect taxes. But people shouldn't assume that means they don't owe their home state. Consult your accountant or tax lawyer.

[NoleinJax]

Originally Posted by 13goyankees13

i.e. alteration is only alteration if a TPA catches it?

If the marketplace supports conservation, test it out. For the next month, require all sellers to note how their cards were conserved. See if there is a significant difference in pricing between conserved and non-conserved cards. If the market truly supports it, sellers will have no issue with this and these disclosures won't impact selling prices.

They know the established card market will not, but what they may be trying to do is pull the wool over the eyes of those entering the market as ways to diversify their portfolios and are trying to market these items as works of art because in the art world restoration and other things are common and accepted. The question remains as to whether this will ever become a common (even more so), acceptable practice and it appears that people with the power to move and shape the market want it to be.

[NoleinJax]

Originally Posted by GatorPie

Okay, but what's the right thing to happen? PWCC out of business?

I'm really not trying to bust your balls, just trying to understand the end game here. I admire the passion of the people on this board.

Something good has already come from all this - a number of trimmed cards have been pulled from auctions. And if the trimmers keep seeing that they can't get away with it, they will stop.

You can't believe this? They will learn to be more careful about trimming cards that have a traceable history online. No amount of BODA agents will be able to stop the trimming of high value unnumbered cards. That's only something the grading companies, maybe in concert with the card manufacturers, will be able to solve imo. I shudder to think about how many PSA 10 Trout updates have had some minor surgery or the thousands of Upper Deck hockey Young Guns that sell for great money and are produced by the 1000's.

[pspa123]

I think you are spot on. This is aimed at new money, people with no hobby history or grounding. It's cynical and all about $$$. There's a ton of money of course in trimming, but also a ton in taking out creases which can lead to several grade bumps.

[yankee98]

Originally Posted by pspa123

I think you are spot on. This is aimed at new money, people with no hobby history or grounding. It's cynical and all about $$$. There's a ton of money of course in trimming, but also a ton in taking out creases which can lead to several grade bumps.

If only there was a precedent to see what happens in this hobby when people who bring new money into the hobby find out that they've been scammed...

Unrelated, I have a 10,000 card lot of 88 Donruss Gregg Jefferies for sale, $1 million obo.

[NoleinJax]

Originally Posted by chezball

For those of a later generation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtsKcHmceqY

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by yankee98

More like the state revenue departments. You think the state of New York doesn't know the old "ship it to another state so you don't have to pay sales tax" scam? People have been trying it since the 50's at the high end department stores and jewelry stores, not to mention with art and antiques.

AFAIK, its irrelevant where its shipped, what's relevant is who purchased it. If you live in California, Texas, or New York, or wherever and you purchase something, you are liable for sales tax. Period.

Between the vault and "conservation" PWCC seems pretty scammy. But then again, "the salt of the earth" work there so nothing to see here.

I will contact my state AG and see what they say.

[metallicalex777]

Since PSA isn't here to post, we should start posting on their behalf from what they provide on their site. Clearly they keep it vague enough, as well as capable of circling to other ways of stating "the graders reserve the right...", also how about some grading tips via their hosted YouTube video:

PSA Grading Standards: https://www.psacard.com/Resources/gr...tandards#cards



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcSpZ33wqQ4

[metallicalex777]

^^^Clearly the current market does not accept this particular issue

[yankee98]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

I will contact my state AG and see what they say.

I think PWCC is trying to pretend that they are in a tax haven (Oregon) and don't have to worry about sales tax.

Thing is COMC collects sales tax now, and they do the same thing- warehouse cards for their clients. They don't collect Washington sales tax either, they collect sales tax reflecting the client's address.

PWCC is in my opinion straight up misleading their customers into believing that they will evade sales tax this way. If you purchase a significant amount (six figures) and put them in your "vault" your state will absolutely take notice and come after you.

[KhalDrogo]

What happens when you ship an item from the vault to your home? Do you pay taxes then?

[asujbl]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

What happens when you ship an item from the vault to your home? Do you pay taxes then?

Use Tax

[mrdallas]

Originally Posted by asujbl

Use Tax

Yes. Anyone who purchases in any state with a "sales' tax will be responsible to pay either a sales tax or use tax if No "sales" tax was paid at the time of purchase.

[rainmaker]

i appreciate this post. as long as you disclose any known conservation then i dont see a problem with much of this. if you hide that under your policies then it is misleading and disingenuous.

i buy from you guys, i sell with you guys i dont have the problems with you so many seem to. the possible evidence of inside work from the other thread is highly concerning, however, and that has soured my opinion of your company.

nevertheless, if you want to be on the right side of this fight then giving up $ for the better good might be something you have to do once in a while. taking down cards that are proven altered. disclosing known history of a card. reaching out after the fact to the buyer of a card that is proven altered. spending more upfront to vet high value cards that could be altered. all of these things should probably be addressed.

be the leader here and you will have everyone on your side.

[metallicalex777]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

i appreciate this post. as long as you disclose any known conservation then i dont see a problem with much of this. if you hide that under your policies then it is misleading and disingenuous.

i buy from you guys, i sell with you guys i dont have the problems with you so many seem to. the possible evidence of inside work from the other thread is highly concerning, however, and that has soured my opinion of your company.

nevertheless, if you want to be on the right side of this fight then giving up $ for the better good might be something you have to do once in a while. taking down cards that are proven altered. disclosing known history of a card. reaching out after the fact to the buyer of a card that is proven altered. spending more upfront to vet high value cards that could be altered. all of these things should probably be addressed.

be the leader here and you will have everyone on your side.

Should also have a process in place for "repeat offenders/sellers" that reflect a trend of sending altered cards once vetted out as altered. Whether that be a ban to go through PWCC, or even better, having a public facing list of "repeat offenders" to allow customers to have extra caution to ensure they do their own justice of research.

[SaveMeTheGum]

Where does soaking fall in these definitions? A lot of the Net54 guys seem to think it is ok but I strongly disagree. To me, if disclosing your "conservation" in the description leads to a lower selling price, then failing to disclose it is outright fraud. These definitions seem to want to hide a lot of what a buyer might want to know about before purchasing.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by metallicalex777

Should also have a process in place for "repeat offenders/sellers" that reflect a trend of sending altered cards once vetted out as altered. Whether that be a ban to go through PWCC, or even better, having a public facing list of "repeat offenders" to allow customers to have extra caution to ensure they do their own justice of research.

absolutely agree. if a company continues to consign cards from known scammers they are every bit as responsible as the scammers themselves. it allows a platform for them to anonymously sell and the only winners are the scammers and consignors laughing to the bank.

pwcc needs to address this or this could be the moment they lose a large chunk of their customer base.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by SaveMeTheGum

Where does soaking fall in these definitions? A lot of the Net54 guys seem to think it is ok but I strongly disagree. To me, if disclosing your "conservation" in the description leads to a lower selling price, then failing to disclose it is outright fraud. These definitions seem to want to hide a lot of what a buyer might want to know about before purchasing.

its gotta be disclosed, or PSA has to add notes to cards that we can all look up and research. thats another rabbit trail and has nothing to do with pwcc so i wont go into it any more here. but pwcc really needs to disclose whatever conservation efforts were made, assuming they are aware of it. if we see hammers proving the market doesnt mind then i personally wont mind. i wont buy but i wont care if others buy given the full story of a card.

[mrdallas]

With all of this talk makes you wonder if the PSA 10 52 Mantle in The Dbacks collection has been restored, or worse yet, wouldn't that be a damn shame if all three PSA 10 Mantle 52 Topps in existence (I think that is the #) were all restored. SMH

[Chrisyork33]

Kudos to BO for allowing a conversation like this to take place. It also shows the power of this forum.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by mrdallas

With all of this talk makes you wonder if the PSA 10 52 Mantle in The Dbacks collection has been restored, or worse yet, wouldn't that be a damn shame if all three PSA 10 Mantle 52 Topps in existence (I think that is the #) were all restored. SMH

its a sad state we are in the more evidence that pops up the more likely it is that a larger percentage of cards than we imagined have been altered in one way or the other. the mantle card you speak of was from an unopened pack if i recall which went directly for grading. someone with more knowledge could correct me if i am wrong.

i have maintained the sweet spot for vintage is low grade nice eye appeal. that is what i collect and where the hobby may go if this is an a-bomb to high grade vintage we just uncovered.

[mfw13]

This is going to kill not only PWCC (because nobody reputable will buy from them anymore), but possibly the entire vintage market (because nobody will trust that they are not getting ripped off).

How many trimmed/altered/conserved cards are floating around out there that have slipped by a TPG and are now 'legitimized' by having been slabbed?

[SaveMeTheGum]

Originally Posted by mrdallas

With all of this talk makes you wonder if the PSA 10 52 Mantle in The Dbacks collection has been restored, or worse yet, wouldn't that be a damn shame if all three PSA 10 Mantle 52 Topps in existence (I think that is the #) were all restored. SMH

Agree. I used to be in awe of high graded vintage cards. Now I just assume someone has messed with it. I guess that was my own naivety. Lesson learned I guess.

National should be fun. Have a feeling there will be a lot more high grade vintage deals than in the past.

[GatorPie]

Originally Posted by NoleinJax

You can't believe this? They will learn to be more careful about trimming cards that have a traceable history online. No amount of BODA agents will be able to stop the trimming of high value unnumbered cards. That's only something the grading companies, maybe in concert with the card manufacturers, will be able to solve imo. I shudder to think about how many PSA 10 Trout updates have had some minor surgery or the thousands of Upper Deck hockey Young Guns that sell for great money and are produced by the 1000's.

Yes but that's still progress, isn't it? Are you expecting to completely solve the problem overnight?