Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by Fudd

I do appreciate Prewar making a statement on the board regarding the trimmed doctored and altered Mantle. I am just pissed because I was a bidder for the card.



While we don't agree, I feel I may have been a little hard on the Beaver.

I'm not accusing you of calling in the Doctor and reselling the same cards over and over again with different grades and quality of altering. Though there is some slight evidence of it. The main evidence is trying to splint the DOCTORING/Conserving view. Let me be clear, that is BullS***, IMHO.



I do feel after further review, you certainly turn a blind eye to it, condone it and are part of the alteration problem. That doesn't mean you are involved in fraud though the jury is still out on that. I certainly hope not. But I always like to trust people. Stupid of me.



Most of the problem lies with PSA. I'm sure you just keep spinning these cards in and out of the holders and are friends of the "Doctors" working in conjunction in a flipping scam of sorts. If they catch it 2 times the thirds a charm, right?



I think the main problem is the jerkoffs at PSA seeing so many submissions they MISS everything, most of the time and PREWAR KNOWS IT. We all know it. They are just gaming the system, like everyone tries to.



You asked for suggestions and my suggestion is to be transparent as you can with the alterations and embrace it. Because that's what you've done for better or worse.

I agree with you.

Again, the biggest problem is that so many in the hobby want grading to be something it can clearly NEVER be.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by mfw13

This is going to kill not only PWCC (because nobody reputable will buy from them anymore), but possibly the entire vintage market (because nobody will trust that they are not getting ripped off).

How many trimmed/altered/conserved cards are floating around out there that have slipped by a TPG and are now 'legitimized' by having been slabbed?

No it won't. Not even close. As they always do, people will resume their regular purchases. Stuff triumphs. If we get some marginal change in behavior and reduction in card doctoring, I will consider it a blessing.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by SaveMeTheGum

Agree. I used to be in awe of high graded vintage cards. Now I just assume someone has messed with it. I guess that was my own naivety. Lesson learned I guess.

National should be fun. Have a feeling there will be a lot more high grade vintage deals than in the past.

I am in the same boat. I started looking into vintage purchases two months ago. Nothing super high-end, but I wouldn’t mind putting together some PSA 7/8 Topps player runs. Now I’m not so sure.

[rainmaker]

this isnt going to kill pwcc but i do think they will make some changes.

they will have to as we are now in a world with daily threads about this card or that card being altered and regraded. this will only pick up as time goes on. as such all consignors will probably need to vet things better going forward.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

I am in the same boat. I started looking into vintage purchases two months ago. Nothing super high-end, but I wouldn’t mind putting together some PSA 7/8 Topps player runs. Now I’m not so sure.

Avoid sellers you don't trust, pass on anything that looks even slightly short or at first glance just doesn't look right, stay with 7s instead of 8s on anything that would be for you an expensive purchase, and -- some will disagree here -- don't fret about perfect centering, and you can at least maximize your chances of buying unaltered cards.

If you want to bump the level of scrutiny one higher, check VCP to see if the card previously sold in an auction you don't trust. I mean the "asset."

[snakehunter14]

No doubt trimming is the WORST, but pictures showing printing dots, which can actually be the same, in the same place, on many cards in a print run can't be the only criterion used to determine if the encased card is the same.

[asujbl]

Originally Posted by mfw13

This is going to kill not only PWCC (because nobody reputable will buy from them anymore), but possibly the entire vintage market (because nobody will trust that they are not getting ripped off).

How many trimmed/altered/conserved cards are floating around out there that have slipped by a TPG and are now 'legitimized' by having been slabbed?

Hyperbole much?

You realize how small at % of the card market that Blowout actually is right?

There are thousand and thousands, especially high dollar collectors, that couldn't care less about any of this.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by asujbl

Hyperbole much?

You realize how small at % of the card market that Blowout actually is right?

There are thousand and thousands, especially high dollar collectors, that couldn't care less about any of this.

This has always been a problem for any effort to clean up the hobby. High profile dealers and collectors have not, as far as I recall, taken an active role.

[rainmaker]

the label is worth more than the card in the high end market. that is not about to change.

[Oldan Poar]

======

[asujbl]

Originally Posted by pspa123

This has always been a problem for any effort to clean up the hobby. High profile dealers and collectors have not, as far as I recall, taken an active role.

Nor will they (for the most part)

There is too much money to lose.

The work done on Blowout has been phenomenal, I don't even know where these guys start sometimes getting such good research, but at the end of the day it'll die down. It always does.

When is the last time you read a thread about all the fake 2012 Contenders that were floating around? It was discussed forever for about 8-10 months on here when Luck, Griffin, and Wilson were the hottest thing on the planet... and now everyone just buys the Contenders if they happen to want one.

Will PWCC take a hit? Will BGS? Will PSA? Probably on some level

But it will eventually go back to business as usual.

Blowout is not nearly the % of the hobby that some people think it is. Which is a good and bad thing (I don't want some of the idiots on Facebook and Instagram being active here)

That doesn't mean the little guy can't effect change, they absolutely can, just saying that "this is going to kill PWCC and the vintage market" is simply not reality.

[mrdallas]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

its a sad state we are in the more evidence that pops up the more likely it is that a larger percentage of cards than we imagined have been altered in one way or the other. the mantle card you speak of was from an unopened pack if i recall which went directly for grading. someone with more knowledge could correct me if i am wrong.

i have maintained the sweet spot for vintage is low grade nice eye appeal. that is what i collect and where the hobby may go if this is an a-bomb to high grade vintage we just uncovered.

WOW. Imagine pulling that card out of an unopened pack today. Do you know when around that was?
ehhh doesn't matter, probably resealed pack with the trimmed/restored PSA 10 Mantle already inserted to throw off any suspicions..... I kid, I kid. or........

[corndog]

Originally Posted by snakehunter14

No doubt trimming is the WORST, but pictures showing printing dots, which can actually be the same, in the same place, on many cards in a print run can't be the only criterion used to determine if the encased card is the same.

Where are you seeing this occur?

[BLongley]

Originally Posted by mrdallas

WOW. Imagine pulling that card out of an unopened pack today. Do you know when around that was?
ehhh doesn't matter, probably resealed pack with the trimmed/restored PSA 10 Mantle already inserted to throw off any suspicions..... I kid, I kid. or........

Story goes that all of the PSA 10s 52 Topps Mantle cards came from Al Rosen’s aka Mr Mints find... you can google the story it’s actually pretty amazing all of the 52 Topps that were found... many of the nicest Mantles (over 70 of them and they were mostly beautiful), Mays, Matthews, etc were from that find in 1986.

[BLongley]

Originally Posted by corndog

Where are you seeing this occur?

See examples on page 1 of this thread... the Stooges, D DiMaggio, Musial, etc...

We found a “highest” graded trimmed 1938 Joe DiMaggio on Heritage due to print marks... which Heritage pulled down and card was almost at $20k already when it had originally been a PSA 4 or something...

[mrdallas]

Originally Posted by BLongley

Story goes that all of the PSA 10s 52 Topps Mantle cards came from Al Rosen’s aka Mr Mints find... you can google the story it’s actually pretty amazing all of the 52 Topps that were found... many of the nicest Mantles (over 70 of them and they were mostly beautiful), Mays, Matthews, etc were from that find in 1986.

I dint realize that is where they came from. That was an AMAZING STORY. I was under the impression that the person who came to him with the cards actually opened the packs and sold him the entire lot of opened cards or something on those lines. They also had a empty Case/Box of 52 Topps that someone listed for like $48,000. Crazy

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by asujbl

Nor will they (for the most part)

There is too much money to lose.

The work done on Blowout has been phenomenal, I don't even know where these guys start sometimes getting such good research, but at the end of the day it'll die down. It always does.

When is the last time you read a thread about all the fake 2012 Contenders that were floating around? It was discussed forever for about 8-10 months on here when Luck, Griffin, and Wilson were the hottest thing on the planet... and now everyone just buys the Contenders if they happen to want one.

Will PWCC take a hit? Will BGS? Will PSA? Probably on some level

But it will eventually go back to business as usual.

Blowout is not nearly the % of the hobby that some people think it is. Which is a good and bad thing (I don't want some of the idiots on Facebook and Instagram being active here)

That doesn't mean the little guy can't effect change, they absolutely can, just saying that "this is going to kill PWCC and the vintage market" is simply not reality.

How does a seller "take a hit" in the hobby? Lawsuit? A period of decreased sales?

[DaaaaBears]

What are the odds that my junk era 10's are trimmed/altered? Invest in these instead of valuable cards 8)

[asujbl]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

How does a seller "take a hit" in the hobby? Lawsuit? A period of decreased sales?

Sure... decreased sales, decreased confidence, decreased margin since they are fee based... now to what level you define a "hit" will vary greatly

But PWCC isn't going away. That's simply hyperbole.

Will they lose some customers on Blowout, Facebook, Instagram? Sure

But in the grand scheme of things 99% of us don't make a dent in their numbers anyway.

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by snakehunter14

No doubt trimming is the WORST, but pictures showing printing dots, which can actually be the same, in the same place, on many cards in a print run can't be the only criterion used to determine if the encased card is the same.

Look at the cards and you can see more than just print dots. Some of us don’t have the time to spell every little thing out. The cards originally posted by me are 100% the same.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by mfw13

This is going to kill not only PWCC (because nobody reputable will buy from them anymore), but possibly the entire vintage market (because nobody will trust that they are not getting ripped off).

How many trimmed/altered/conserved cards are floating around out there that have slipped by a TPG and are now 'legitimized' by having been slabbed?

i hope so. i'd still like a 52 Mantle and would like a PSA for $500

[WillBBC]

Originally Posted by asujbl

Hyperbole much?

You realize how small at % of the card market that Blowout actually is right?

There are thousand and thousands, especially high dollar collectors, that couldn't care less about any of this.

Ding ding ding. 100 times this.

[ThoseBackPages]

not only is Blowout a small %, but so is grading, especially vintage

if youve ever been to the show, you know this to be true

[corndog]

Originally Posted by BLongley

See examples on page 1 of this thread... the Stooges, D DiMaggio, Musial, etc...

We found a “highest” graded trimmed 1938 Joe DiMaggio on Heritage due to print marks... which Heritage pulled down and card was almost at $20k already when it had originally been a PSA 4 or something...

Okay, I will teach you what to look for on vintage cards. Since you brought up the Dom DiMaggio card I will use that one. Open another page for it and you will be able to read what I write and look at the same time.
Do not look at the front since most of what you see is printing ink, so look at the backs of both images. On the third line of type you can read where it says 'Also a capable hitter'. Do you see the brown spot just above the letter 's' in Also? That spot is a pulp fiber and it is like a fingerprint. When paper stock is manufactured the natural finish of paper is grayish light brown. Included in the paper are minuscule pulp fibers which are brownish since it is an actual tree fiber. The randomness of these fibers makes natural paper or card stock no different than a fingerprint. Therefore each vintage card is one of a kind if natural unbleached paper is used. There are other points of reference on that card as well. The exact same card is in both images.

Hope this helps.

[rcmb3220]

Originally Posted by mfw13

This is going to kill not only PWCC (because nobody reputable will buy from them anymore), but possibly the entire vintage market (because nobody will trust that they are not getting ripped off).

How many trimmed/altered/conserved cards are floating around out there that have slipped by a TPG and are now 'legitimized' by having been slabbed?

No it won’t. WIWAG was much worse and it didn’t kill anything. As for PWCC they won’t see any difference. Even people who swear them off will be back if they have an auction for that one card they need.