At Least 2/4 1993 SP PSA 10 Jeters Sold by PWCC are Likely Trimmed - Page 12

pspa123 · 05-21-2019, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cubsfanp

Chew on this:

We have no idea how many actually get caught. How can we be assured raw cards aren't rejected trim jobs? Considering some cards MAY have been rejected for altering by a TPG, I would be very careful when buying a card raw. Especially the high end or condition sensitive ones which seem to be recurring targets in these threads.

The other problem with buying raw online in my experience is that they tend to be overgraded. The "Gem Mint" cards that have corner touches when they arrive.

imbluestreak23 · 05-21-2019, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cubsfanp

Chew on this:

We have no idea how many actually get caught. How can we be assured raw cards aren't rejected trim jobs? Considering some cards MAY have been rejected for altering by a TPG, I would be very careful when buying a card raw. Especially the high end or condition sensitive ones which seem to be recurring targets in these threads.

Correct. My last PSA sub had two rejected N6 cards that are in the $200-$500 range. What happens if I pass these on to another unsuspected buyer without disclosing hx?

Happens all the time friends

hxcmilkshake · 05-21-2019, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cubsfanp

Chew on this:

We have no idea how many actually get caught. How can we be assured raw cards aren't rejected trim jobs? Considering some cards MAY have been rejected for altering by a TPG, I would be very careful when buying a card raw. Especially the high end or condition sensitive ones which seem to be recurring targets in these threads.

Sure, but when my raw card arrives I can measure it up and if short, send back.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

GatorPie · 05-21-2019, 08:57 AM

So now people have to prove their card is NOT trimmed? How the hell would you do that? The system is you have to prove guilt, not innocence.

You guys mean well, but some trains of thought have gone off the deep end.

Astros19 · 05-21-2019, 09:05 AM

If I was a buyer I think I would tend to look at sellers who have no past experience selling graded cards.
I would tend to believe these seller's cards have been unaltered.
But honestly, who knows?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

dmanrico · 05-21-2019, 09:11 AM

This to me is one of the horrible consequences of what these people have done. It throws everything into question for any rarer card of value,graded or not. Shoot, maybe even cards of marginal value. So I guess we all go back to just opening our own wax. Hate what these alterers have done.

MoreToppsPlease · 05-21-2019, 09:14 AM

Nvm....

Cubsfanp · 05-21-2019, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hxcmilkshake

Sure, but when my raw card arrives I can measure it up and if short, send back.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

This is true, and the same applies to graded cards, so it isn't mutually exclusive. I could see this perhaps being a contested topic on these transactions, and would be interesting to see how this plays out.

Yet here we have another thing we have to look forward to as sellers. Even if we pack pull cards, some amateurs can now use rulers to file charge backs. I'm hoping none of us has to ever deal with it.

Trimmers suck.

KhalDrogo · 05-21-2019, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astros19

If I was a buyer I think I would tend to look at sellers who have no past experience selling graded cards.
I would tend to believe these seller's cards have been unaltered.
But honestly, who knows?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

No guarantees there as it seems some of these guys have second accounts exclusively dealing raw cards to get buyers to think exactly what you wrote.

JMANIA · 05-21-2019, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

Correct. My last PSA sub had two rejected N6 cards that are in the $200-$500 range. What happens if I pass these on to another unsuspected buyer without disclosing hx?

Happens all the time friends

Does not even mean the card was actually altered. Works both ways, they miss trims or think items are trimmed that are not, here saying minimum size requirement. An impossible task that cannot be done. Try the card again or with another company and you might have a different result.

JMANIA · 05-21-2019, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WJCIII

I think we're all overestimating the number of altered cards getting slabbed. While I agree that 1 getting through is too many, they're not all going to get caught. BGS has slabbed over 10 million cards and having worked there I can tell you at least 4 times that many have gone through the process. That's 40 million cards, minimum. I have no doubt the number for PSA is drastically higher. The number of known altered cards compared to the number of cards each company has seen is microscopic. That's why I'll continue to buy and sell graded cards. Yes, there is bad stuff in holders but as a whole I trust it far more than buying raw. Having said that, I'll never buy a huge card like the Jeter so whether or not those types of cards are altered don't pertain to me so I don't pay a lot of attention to them.

Appreciate your posts and knowledge. However, the reality is I think most people underestimate the amount of trimmed card that get slabbed. There are still known trimmers not yet noted on this forum. Cards noted are only small in terms of volume because not all cards are serial numbered. Most high volume graders in fact trim. And problem works the other way with non-trimmed cards getting deemed as trimmed. I know the people on here saying if cards were measured would not miss cards and I disagree with that. Just as the grades are subjective, there is subjectivity in determining whether or not trimmed and a human element. PSA has graded what 32 million cards. If only 3% of the cards it has graded were trimmed then it has accomplished the feat of grading over 1 million trimmed cards. Certainly to me 3% sounds low. Can I prove it? No. Have dealers confessed to other dealers that they trimmed and got cards through? Absolutely.

jstephens24 · 05-21-2019, 12:21 PM

I don't know if we are underestimating how many cards are altered....if PSA says using a substance on a card is altering then using maguires wax or whatever is altering. And I think WJCIII is the one who said thousands of cards have had that wax on it. The card may not be cut short but its still an alteration

Chicharito · 05-21-2019, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorPie

So now people have to prove their card is NOT trimmed? How the hell would you do that? The system is you have to prove guilt, not innocence.

You guys mean well, but some trains of thought have gone off the deep end.

If I went to a 7-eleven at 3 am and I saw some heavy tattoo'ed bikers gathering around there, I wouldn't go inside. Not that I thought they were 100% bad people, but I rather not to take chances.

This is how the trimmers made the hobby turned into lately imo.

HarryLime · 05-21-2019, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMANIA

PSA has graded what 32 million cards. If only 3% of the cards it has graded were trimmed then it has accomplished the feat of grading over 1 million trimmed cards. Certainly to me 3% sounds low. Can I prove it? No. Have dealers confessed to other dealers that they trimmed and got cards through? Absolutely.

3% sounds low to you?

Arthur

Cubsfanp · 05-21-2019, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryLime

3% sounds low to you?

Arthur

Any % number we could put behind it would be totally emotional and non factual.

To the "house is falling" and "grading is a scam" folks any number is too low

To the people who have doubts, any number is too high

How many examples have been found so far? I think 3% sounds high, but have no idea on the scale of the issue.

3124508 on COMC · 05-21-2019, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorPie

So now people have to prove their card is NOT trimmed? How the hell would you do that? The system is you have to prove guilt, not innocence.

You guys mean well, but some trains of thought have gone off the deep end.

Yeah, if your name is Kevin Burge or if your PSA subs are filled with trimmed cards, that is something you should be expected to do.

MoreToppsPlease · 05-21-2019, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cubsfanp

Any % number we could put behind it would be totally emotional and non factual.

To the "house is falling" and "grading is a scam" folks any number is too low

To the people who have doubts, any number is too high

How many examples have been found so far? I think 3% sounds high, but have no idea on the scale of the issue.

Coming up with a percent in this context isn’t really helpful though.

It makes much more sense to frame slab value in terms of the grader’s reputation...which is how slabs have always been valued.

The question to ask: is PSA as reputable now as GAI or any of the other second or third tier grading companies?

The answer now seems to be “yes”. PSA no longer appears to be on the top tier of graders.

As such it is reasonable to price a PSA slab at the same level as a GAI [or insert a second/third tier slabber] slab.

If looking for a percent, “What percent value has a given PSA slab lost?” Would make for an interesting poll, but I’m sure there’d be a ton of fighting therein...

Bruins1993 · 02-03-2020, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jucornett1

how do you know who consigned the cards? the PSA 10 Jeter with the 272 serial number... you seemed to think that was pretty simple that Kevin Burge consigned?

curious how you know? are you certain you know? or are you just guessing? pretty strong accusations...

Just a wild guess so I thought I'd ask, do you do business with Kevin Burge? If so how many thousands of dollars of cards that have passed through Burge have you consigned to PWCC?

superdan49 · 03-17-2020, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

A third one (Ser. #: 26223954) is also suspect.

Serial #26223954 is back up for sale by PWCC, who first sold it back in November 2016. I'd love to know who originally consigned it. Currently at $144,000 with 28 hours to go: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-SP-Foil-Derek-Jeter-ROOKIE-RC-279-PSA-10-GEM-MINT-PWCC/143550563142

It will be interesting to see what this ends up selling for considering the coronavirus and other factors.

ThoseBackPages · 03-17-2020, 03:54 PM

Beautiful card indeed

MoreToppsPlease · 03-17-2020, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

Beautiful card indeed

The trimming helps

ThoseBackPages · 03-17-2020, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

The trimming helps

yea, that usually does

psd2k10 · 03-17-2020, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

Yikes! Slippery slope. High probability? Yes. 100% certainty?

Title of the thread is very misleading.

99.9% percent certainty is basically the same so stop the nonsense please.

MoreToppsPlease · 03-17-2020, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psd2k10

99.9% percent certainty is basically the same so stop the nonsense please.

The confidence level BODA provides (99.9%?) is probably at least twice that PSA provides..not that this makes a difference to the people who only care about the number on the label.

Bruins1993 · 03-18-2020, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

The confidence level BODA provides (99.9%?) is probably at least twice that PSA provides..not that this makes a difference to the people who only care about the number on the label.

PSA might be one step up from GAI then at 50%... Playing Russian roulette with half the chambers filled sounds awfully dangerous.

05-21-2019, 09:14 AM	#282
MoreToppsPlease Member Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 8,676	At Least 2/4 1993 SP PSA 10 Jeters Sold by PWCC are Likely Trimmed Nvm.... __________________ IRS Tax Tip 2022-57 A hobby is any activity that a person pursues because they enjoy it and with no intention of making a profit. People operate a business with the intention of making a profit. Last edited by MoreToppsPlease; 05-21-2019 at 09:17 AM.

05-21-2019, 12:21 PM	#287
jstephens24 Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 2,600	I don't know if we are underestimating how many cards are altered....if PSA says using a substance on a card is altering then using maguires wax or whatever is altering. And I think WJCIII is the one who said thousands of cards have had that wax on it. The card may not be cut short but its still an alteration __________________ At the age of 5, a bear told me only I could prevent forest fires. Why I was chosen, I'll never know https://8thwondercards.weeblysite.com/ Twitter/IG: 8thWonderCards

03-17-2020, 03:54 PM	#295
ThoseBackPages Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Long Island Posts: 90,010 ThoseBackPages	Beautiful card indeed __________________ Pumpers Paradise #YouCryIBuy Four things that we cannot change each others minds about: Politics, Religion, Third Party Grading, and 2021 Bowman's Best Rookie Cards

05-21-2019, 08:57 AM	#279
GatorPie Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 1,199	So now people have to prove their card is NOT trimmed? How the hell would you do that? The system is you have to prove guilt, not innocence. You guys mean well, but some trains of thought have gone off the deep end.

05-21-2019, 09:05 AM	#280
Astros19 Member Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 5,994	If I was a buyer I think I would tend to look at sellers who have no past experience selling graded cards. I would tend to believe these seller's cards have been unaltered. But honestly, who knows? Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

05-21-2019, 09:11 AM	#281
dmanrico Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Posts: 2,469	This to me is one of the horrible consequences of what these people have done. It throws everything into question for any rarer card of value,graded or not. Shoot, maybe even cards of marginal value. So I guess we all go back to just opening our own wax. Hate what these alterers have done.