BGS Black Labels, Joe Clemons (eBay ID: wjc75056), and Illegitimate Grading

[JMANIA]

Originally Posted by Rooftop

BG: With respect to Joe, he does work for us on a contract basis.

Joe: Yes, I work at Leaf and am proud to do so

BG: However, for me to fire an employee and risk a termination related lawsuit, the threshold of "evidence" will have to be high and more concrete than it is so far.

So which one is it? Is he an independent contractor or an actual employee?

You are trying to play with words without understanding an employee can be "at will" or a contractual employee. No one said independent contractor. It would appear Mr. Clemons is an employee of Leaf. If taken literally, he has a contract and BG does not want to terminate him or take any action without cause. Maybe he does not have a contract and is "at will". That I do not see as being our business if BG is trying to obtain the information prior to acting.

[clocsta2323]

Originally Posted by rogermaris

Except he took the time to write a longwinded post defending himself.

But interestingly, he won't take two seconds to provide the evidence that would exonerate him.

To anyone who doesn't find that suspicious: I have a bridge to sell you.

The classic, "This will be my first and only post regarding this matter"...what a crock. I've yet to see anyone truly blameless utilize the "one and done". I didn't even need to read the other posts to know the dude is overtly guilty.

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by mrdallas

You need to read all the PWCC threads? This has all been exposed.

You need to read my response above.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by RickyFace

Good lord, this is like watching someone trying to convince Scientologists that they are being had. The Cult of Card Grading has a powerful grip on these souls.

If you've been around card collecting for the past 20 years and didn't easily see through the whole grade-buy-regrade scam in fifteen minutes, or didn't realize these auction houses are simply convincing naive people with money to play a game of hot potato and pass the same high dollar cards back and forth among each other, or that the graders and the consignment companies are in cahootz with each other, or that "Mastro is the rule, not the exception", ..... wow, don't know what to say

Looks like they cheated some pretty wealthy people. Cheating wealthy people may be lucrative, but never ends well.

welcome back

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by Onepocketj

You are starting to sound like pgis. This has been asked and answered numerous times.

I really can't find where Joe said he went 22/22 and it wasn't part of a larger sub. I didn't find where he admitted that. If he did admit it, then I'd have the same opinion that he had an insider helping him.

Just show me where he said it. I've asked 3 times now and no one has shown me where he states this.

[Astros19]

Although in the grand scheme of things I know this doesn't really matter, I find it interesting that BO has let this thread live. I've seen other accusatory threads get deleted quickly because there was nothing to go on. If this were just an open and closed case of a witch hunt I'm pretty sure the thread would have been deleted by now.
Again, I know it means nothing, but I still find it interesting.

[jeff24k]

There are two ways to determine if the black labels are legit:

1) Have an independent 3rd party crack ten of the Black Labels in question and then resubmit under an anonymous and unaffiliated account that gets no preferential treatment. What % still get Black Labels (or even BGS 10s)?

2) Let Joe pick out ten cards that have never been submitted before and that his near perfect eyes judge to be perfect. As in #1, submit under an anonymous and unaffiliated account that gets no preferential treatment. What % get Black Labels (or even BGS 10s)?

I think we all can presume that the BL% will be at most 10%, even if the cards are "perfect". But if it's all really just his talented eyes and knowledge at play, then doing one or both of the above and getting even a 30% or higher BL hit rate would prove it.

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by jeff24k

There are two ways to determine if the black labels are legit:

1) Have an independent 3rd party crack ten of the Black Labels in question and then resubmit under an anonymous and unaffiliated account that gets no preferential treatment. What % still get Black Labels (or even BGS 10s)?

2) Let Joe pick out ten cards that have never been submitted before and that his near perfect eyes judge to be perfect. As in #1, submit under an anonymous and unaffiliated account that gets no preferential treatment. What % get Black Labels (or even BGS 10s)?

I think we all can presume that the BL% will be at most 10%, even if the cards are "perfect". But if it's all really just his talented eyes and knowledge at play, then doing one or both of the above and getting even a 30% or higher BL hit rate would prove it.

I think you can take any 10 black labels (joe's or not Joe's), and you will have a good percentage not come back w/ the same grade.

I will say even if Joe has one of the best 10 "grading eyes" out there, going 22/22 would be impossible. Which is why asked for someone to quote where he said he did that.

[lisu]

Originally Posted by Astros19

Oh come on. Not worth the time and energy to do so? Seriously?
Hey Joe, did you know there's a lot of people on BO accusing you of fraud amid other shady things? Yea, I know, but I don't care, not worth my time and effort.
Quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this message board, and that says a lot.

I'm sorry, but your post just proved my point.

[Onepocketj]

Originally Posted by lisu

I'm sorry, but your post just proved my point.

Ummmm, no it didn't

[HBMC]

Originally Posted by pejc300

Hi

Thank you for pointing this out. That's exactly right. People would not send these cards in to be graded unless they were 100% guaranteed a Black label thus actually increasing the value and making it worth their while. Thank you for showing the corruption here.

I'm more concerned that one of the cards Joe had slabbed (the Mookie Chrome Update), has been sold by Joe for $200, re-sold by a Mookie collector in Maine (I presume they are as they have bought and sold a lot of Mookie cards, including other BL's that Joe had slabbed) for a little over 1/10th the original sale price, then it was re-sold by a seller from New Jersey who routinely buys, sells and bids on cards Joe has had graded (and currently has some for sale now) and is in the hands of a seller who has multiple Black Labels Joe graded and has it listed for more than it sold for the first time.

Something is very off about this entire situation.

Originally Posted by dmanrico

For me, it's really this simple:

I don't want blood. I'm not interested in taking down Joe or any individual as purely a "mob" not interested in facts.

I believe the information we have been able to discover to date shows the number of BGS 10s and Black Labels received by Joe is well beyond any standard deviation or success rate achieved by the industry. I have not seen any collector, business owner, professional grader, bulk sub grader, etc come forward saying they've experienced or seen anything like the rate of BGS 10s and BLs achieved by Joe. And there are a lot of experienced industry veterans on this board.

Does this mean that something fraudulent or illegal is being done by Joe? Not necessarily. But I think the information to date justifies further exploration of the matter.

Is this an unreasonable position? Is this a "mob"mentality that keeps getting thrown around?

I'm in this camp for the most part, Beckett was not terribly trustworthy in my eyes to begin with, but the amount of smoke here is killing my interest in their services outside of using their holders.

Originally Posted by EricTownsend88

Because it was Joe's. Same way a 1 sub Robert Acuna base card gets a BL. Or that Vlad Jr. that had HORRIBLE corners. The proof is right here staring us all in the face and yet there's still people posting in the last hour defending this BS. At least the one guy got a nice vacation from it.

There is no proof the Tiger Tales card was Joe's, it was initially graded in 2012.

Originally Posted by Super8er

I know it's not directly related to this thread's main topic, but I thought it might be tangentially related, and speak to BGS' highly subjective sliding scale of quality standards... especially if they truly were offering more higher-grading cards in higher-volume orders.

Apologies if this is off-track.

This question is not off track in the slightest IMO, Beckett has always been a little too subjective in my tastes, but if this particular grader is getting not only preferential treatment, but outright beneficial treatment, the collecting community as a whole needs to know.

[lisu]

No matter what Joe posts or anyone else posts, it won't change anyone's minds because people are standing around with their pitchforks. I already talked to someone at BGS today regarding this, and they backed up everything that Joe already posted. That obviously isn't enough for all you naysayers, so there's no point in having Joe spend more time defending himself. I have better things to do in my life than try to argue that the Earth is actually round to a bunch of people who think that it is flat.

[MNmoose78]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

I really can't find where Joe said he went 22/22 and it wasn't part of a larger sub. I didn't find where he admitted that. If he did admit it, then I'd have the same opinion that he had an insider helping him.

Just show me where he said it. I've asked 3 times now and no one has shown me where he states this.

Even if it was part of a bigger sub, getting 22 black labels in one sub is utterly ridiculous especially when there have been plenty of people come in this thread and give examples of their submissions (seasoned graders and collectors at that) and get a couple BL if any in bigger submissions. If anyone can’t read this thread, look at some of the examples of what have received BL’s and they look like crap condition cards then keep fighting the losing fight!

[moosefan87]

Originally Posted by lisu

No matter what Joe posts or anyone else posts, it won't change anyone's minds because people are standing around with their pitchforks. I already talked to someone at BGS today regarding this, and they backed up everything that Joe already posted. That obviously isn't enough for all you naysayers, so there's no point in having Joe spend more time defending himself. I have better things to do in my life than try to argue that the Earth is actually round to a bunch of people who think that it is flat.

Good German.

[MNmoose78]

Originally Posted by lisu

No matter what Joe posts or anyone else posts, it won't change anyone's minds because people are standing around with their pitchforks. I already talked to someone at BGS today regarding this, and they backed up everything that Joe already posted. That obviously isn't enough for all you naysayers, so there's no point in having Joe spend more time defending himself. I have better things to do in my life than try to argue that the Earth is actually round to a bunch of people who think that it is flat.

So if you believe Beckett told you the truth, do you also believe they told the truth to Brent about guaranteeing him certain grades?? It can’t be both ways!

[sethc1020]

Originally Posted by lisu

No matter what Joe posts or anyone else posts, it won't change anyone's minds because people are standing around with their pitchforks. I already talked to someone at BGS today regarding this, and they backed up everything that Joe already posted. That obviously isn't enough for all you naysayers, so there's no point in having Joe spend more time defending himself. I have better things to do in my life than try to argue that the Earth is actually round to a bunch of people who think that it is flat.

You sure wouldn't make a very good detective!

You: Did you murder that person
Murder: NO
You: You're free to go, must have been someone else.

Im not on a witch hunt or holding a pitch fork but after reading everything there is enough circumstantial evidence against Joe and Very Very little evidence that supports Joe for me to form an opinion up to this point. If he can show some solid evidence otherwise I will take that into consideration as well. But we have not gotten anything solid in support as of yet.

[pejc300]

Originally Posted by lisu

No matter what Joe posts or anyone else posts, it won't change anyone's minds because people are standing around with their pitchforks. I already talked to someone at BGS today regarding this, and they backed up everything that Joe already posted. That obviously isn't enough for all you naysayers, so there's no point in having Joe spend more time defending himself. I have better things to do in my life than try to argue that the Earth is actually round to a bunch of people who think that it is flat.

praise the Lord! That is just what we needed to finally end of this thread. Man you should have told us that right away when you talked to Beckett and they said everything was good. Whew! Glad this saga is finally over. Joe my sincerest apologies to you. Through secondhand knowledge you have now been vindicated.

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by dmanrico

For me, it's really this simple:

I don't want blood. I'm not interested in taking down Joe or any individual as purely a "mob" not interested in facts.

I believe the information we have been able to discover to date shows the number of BGS 10s and Black Labels received by Joe is well beyond any standard deviation or success rate achieved by the industry. I have not seen any collector, business owner, professional grader, bulk sub grader, etc come forward saying they've experienced or seen anything like the rate of BGS 10s and BLs achieved by Joe. And there are a lot of experienced industry veterans on this board.

Does this mean that something fraudulent or illegal is being done by Joe? Not necessarily. But I think the information to date justifies further exploration of the matter.

Is this an unreasonable position? Is this a "mob"mentality that keeps getting thrown around?

I would like one of Joe's defenders to comment on my post. Is this a reasonable stance? I am trying to be fair to the situation and maybe I am missing something. Is there something in the existing known fact set that shows further investigation is not warranted? I'm willing to have a fair conversation on this.

[Cubsfanp]

Originally Posted by pejc300

praise the Lord! That is just what we needed to finally end of this thread. Man you should have told us that right away when you talked to Bevkrtt and they said everything was good. Whew! Glad this saga is finally over. Joe my sincerest apologies to you. Through secondhand knowledge you have now been vindicated.

What Axe do you have to grind? Geez.

Allow me to play devils advocate to those who have already made their minds up:

Does selecting cards which will GEM take skill, experience, luck, or all of it? Most of the responses here seem to think this is pure luck. While i see the point, it would take a great deal of skill/experience as well, no? I see a lot of responses saying "i never got those types of grades". Now ask yourself, are you experienced or skilled enough to match up with the best? I stink at basketball, but i would never expect my shooting percentage to be as good as Michael Jordan, or even a bench player in the NBA. Now i know that is a flawed comparison, but i digress...

I think too often, people are too quick to want to say "i told you so", or have a hot take reaction, and don't wait for all sides or facts. Covington high or Jesse Smollet anyone?

Now to give my actual opinion, i feel the evidence (as presented) points in the realm that there is some type of collusion or preferential treatment with BGS and Joe. That being said, if there were more cards submitted in these batches it might give the skill/experience counter more credit. I'll wait for Dan's findings before jumping to any further conclusions.

Feel free to continue with your pitchforks.

[Astros19]

Originally Posted by lisu

No matter what Joe posts or anyone else posts, it won't change anyone's minds because people are standing around with their pitchforks. I already talked to someone at BGS today regarding this, and they backed up everything that Joe already posted. That obviously isn't enough for all you naysayers, so there's no point in having Joe spend more time defending himself. I have better things to do in my life than try to argue that the Earth is actually round to a bunch of people who think that it is flat.

Just because you say something that doesn't make it true. You have no idea how people would react if Joe would just post what has been asked of him. In fact the exact same thing could be said of you and his other defenders. There's already been enough info released to question what's going on, and you've already made up your mind that Joe is innocent. See how that works?
The rest of your post regarding calling BGS is just more gibberish. What exactly did you think BGS was going to say? Not to mention the fact that you stating you've already talked to someone at BGS is more hearsay than anything else that's been shown on this message board.
In otherwords, you're not helping your or Joe's argument.....at all.

[Cubsfanp]

Originally Posted by dmanrico

I would like one of Joe's defenders to comment on my post. Is this a reasonable stance? I am trying to be fair to the situation and maybe I am missing something. Is there something in the existing known fact set that shows further investigation is not warranted? I'm willing to have a fair conversation on this.

I think further investigation is fine. I also think further investigation, regardless of the outcome, would likely not change many already made up minds.

[snomelcrob]

When you share the same last name as the offender but have never heard of/met/know nothing of him

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by MNmoose78

Even if it was part of a bigger sub, getting 22 black labels in one sub is utterly ridiculous especially when there have been plenty of people come in this thread and give examples of their submissions (seasoned graders and collectors at that) and get a couple BL if any in bigger submissions. If anyone can’t read this thread, look at some of the examples of what have received BL’s and they look like crap condition cards then keep fighting the losing fight!

I understand 22 black labels in a sub is crazy.

When a member posts that Joe admitted he went 22/22 and I can't find the post, I will ask too see the post. If he said it, please show me. Bit If he didn't say it, then this member should not state it as a fact.

[THE(NEXT)LEVEL]

Originally Posted by Cubsfanp

What Axe do you have to grind? Geez.


Does selecting cards which will GEM take skill, experience, luck, or all of it? Most of the responses here seem to think this is pure luck. While i see the point, it would take a great deal of skill/experience as well, no?



Feel free to continue with your pitchforks.

No. Just good eyes and a knowledge of the grading scale, coupled with experience submitting cards. We aren't talking rocket science. Its the detection of alterations that require skill.

[Astros19]

Originally Posted by Cubsfanp

What Axe do you have to grind? Geez.

Allow me to play devils advocate to those who have already made their minds up:

Does selecting cards which will GEM take skill, experience, luck, or all of it? Most of the responses here seem to think this is pure luck. While i see the point, it would take a great deal of skill/experience as well, no? I see a lot of responses saying "i never got those types of grades". Now ask yourself, are you experienced or skilled enough to match up with the best? I stink at basketball, but i would never expect my shooting percentage to be as good as Michael Jordan, or even a bench player in the NBA. Now i know that is a flawed comparison, but i digress...

I think too often, people are too quick to want to say "i told you so", or have a hot take reaction, and don't wait for all sides or facts. Covington high or Jesse Smollet anyone?

Now to give my actual opinion, i feel the evidence (as presented) points in the realm that there is some type of collusion or preferential treatment with BGS and Joe. That being said, if there were more cards submitted in these batches it might give the skill/experience counter more credit. I'll wait for Dan's findings before jumping to any further conclusions.

Feel free to continue with your pitchforks.

Funny, most of the responses I've read say it takes more than pure luck to get the results that Joe received. From what I've read, it isn't even close. Maybe we're reading different messages.
Your basketball analogy sucks by the way. Comparing the skills to be the very best professional basketball player to being a professional card grader? Seriously?
Get back to us when you can show a grader making millions of dollars a year.