BGS Black Labels, Joe Clemons (eBay ID: wjc75056), and Illegitimate Grading

[Cubsfanp]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

He didn't post his PMs in 30 seconds....he must be hiding something

Probably just deleting them.

[Kuch86]

Originally Posted by rcmb3220

Another “trust him with my wallet” comment. That might be the sports card community version of a GM giving a manager a full vote of confidence weeks prior to firing him.

I have no idea what the truth is but i think it’s near impossible to even obtain enough cards to sift through in order to get 10s. There are many huge submitters that aquire huge lots of cards in bulk that don’t get a large proportion of 10s. Are we supposed to believe that they are somehow overlooking all these 10s and only submitting the 9.5s with an occasional 10? You’d have to sort through thousands of a single issue to get these numbers.

Yep! That has been addressed already in the thread. This is even more improbable than the grades he is receiving.

[Ballerskrip]

Originally Posted by Blue_Devil

Yet for the fact that he has or does work for those companies. Which is a huge portion of the point. And I don't think any one is jumping to anything. The evidence at hand speaks for itself. There is no leap to be made.

Your facts are results driven only. The only facts that truly matter in this situation are the process that led to those results. And honestly, you have zero facts of the process, which is where any devious behavior would be uncovered.

And for the clown that said Joe is sending his friends, you must not have any. I haven't spoken to, emailed, or seen Joe in probably 18 months.

If speaking up for someone you trust is a bad thing, well, what the hell are we doing?

[NoleinJax]

Originally Posted by Ballerskrip

I am here for your entertainment

Do better then. Juggling doesn't do it for me.

[Ballerskrip]

I just wanted to give my background with the person in question. Clearly having any form of an opinion different than those who are "right" is a nonoonono around here, I guess I knew that going in. Good luck in your search, Please tag me, or PM me when all grades and subs are posted, and the BGS folks who committed fraud are found.

[sammyjankis]

I'll agree that Joe is a nice guy - he was very friendly when he helped me get a card reslabbed 9 years ago when there was a Beckett employee's hair inside the BGS case.

However, I'm shocked that there are people on here who believe that this guy is really THAT much better than everyone else in the card world at picking cards to grade. Joe might be a great guy, but the fact that he worked at Beckett, is friends with all of the graders, and consistently pulls black labels that could just as easily be a BGS 9.5 or regular BGS 10 for any other Joe Schmoe is REALLY hard to ignore.

I'll buy that he's good enough to consistently pick 9.5s and even BGS 10s - MANY guys can do that. Hell, I'm not even good at grading and I've hit a handful of pretty big BGS 10 cards (Mookie Betts 2014 BC auto, Auston Matthews Young Guns). Black label 10s are another beast and it would be far too easy for a grader to bump a rightfully earned BGS 10 or even 9.5 to a black label based on friendship.

Circumstantial, sure, but it all makes sense. I don't even think there are any kickbacks, it's possible Joe isn't even "in" on it - but SOMETHING doesn't jive here.

[luckyduck]

Originally Posted by Ballerskrip

Your facts are results driven only. The only facts that truly matter in this situation are the process that led to those results. And honestly, you have zero facts of the process, which is where any devious behavior would be uncovered.

And for the clown that said Joe is sending his friends, you must not have any. I haven't spoken to, emailed, or seen Joe in probably 18 months.

If speaking up for someone you trust is a bad thing, well, what the hell are we doing?

"We don't have any smoking gun, video evidence of the crime actually being committed, that must mean it didn't happen." Did you watch the Zapruder film and conclude that Kennedy's head just did that on its own because the video didn't show the gunman?

"I haven't seen Joe in a year and a half, but here I am making the same tired points as other defenders in s thread accusing Joe of wrongdoing." Yeah, OK, whatever, man.

[Blue_Devil]

Originally Posted by Ballerskrip

Your facts are results driven only. The only facts that truly matter in this situation are the process that led to those results. And honestly, you have zero facts of the process, which is where any devious behavior would be uncovered.

Absolutely. The results say what they say. An astronomical number of black labels and 10s from someone with an extensive inside connection. The "results" and the nepotism are what is right in front of our faces. But nice job deflecting away from your irrelevant misdirection. The fact of the matter is that he did work for BGS and does work for Leaf. The fact of the matter is he has more black labels and 10s than the overwhelming and massive majority of us would or SHOULD see in 5 lifetimes. But hey, he donated his pet rock to the Salvation Army so there's that I guess...

[no10pin]

I think everyone needs a Coke and a smile while Dan puts together his findings. This is legitimately making people nuts.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by no10pin

I think everyone needs a Coke and a smile while Dan puts together his findings. This is legitimately making people nuts.

All because of the refusal to post the actual facts.

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by Ballerskrip

I just wanted to give my background with the person in question. Clearly having and form of an opinion different than those who are "right" is a nonoonono around here, I guess I knew that going in. Good luck in your search, Please tag me, or PM me when all grades and subs are posted, and the BGS folks who committed fraud are found.

I do think your last phrase ("and the BGS folks who committed fraud are found") sets an unrealistic hurdle for this situation. Unless someone at BGS were to come forward, this is a standard that cannot be reached with the investigative avenues open here.

[dmanrico]

Does someone have readily accessible the total number of known Black Labels received by Joe? I'm trying to come up for myself what I think is a reasonable success rate % (or at least within the realm of feasible). If I know the total number of BLs, then I can back into the total number of other non-BLs I would want to see in Joe's submissions which will hopefully get disclosed here soon.

The BGS 10s are another very real issue, but I think that data set may be too large to attack right now.

[stryk]

I only felt compelled to respond in this thread after reading ballerskrip's post.

This goes back between 10-20 years I don't exactly remember times but thinking it was closer to the 2000-03 time frame, it's when I was more involved in the hobby than I am now.

The first thing I remember is a friend contacting a grading company about doing a large number of grading on some specific cards he had hundreds if not thousands of copies of. He told me he was told that he could send in an unlimited number of these specific cards and they would only charge him for the cards that would get a gem grade and return the other ones free without being charged for them. I believe this was SGC, but not 100% and it definitely was not BGS. I was not privy to the conversation and was only told this. I don't have any reason to not believe it since it doesn't even seem to be too far out of line.

The second thing I remember was a friend doing a large/first time submission with a company. This was again when BGS was breaking in to grading and though I don't remember 100%, I think this was who his order was with. His submission came back very poor as did most of mine because I honestly didn't understand the process as most do now. He was unhappy about the amount he spent and the grades he received. He contacted them and they told him to send him in some of the cards that were the closest to 9.5 and they would bump them up for him. Again this was the story he told me and I have no first hand knowledge of the interactions. Again when you are a starting a new venture and just upset someone who spent thousands of dollars, you tend to try to do things to make things right.

Both of these stories are nearing 20 years old. They might not have any relevance in today's discussion, but to believe that BGS or any of the other grading companies have never made deals with people is naive. Especially with reps who I am sure at one point were compensated based on some type of numbers. It only takes 1 rogue person to complicate things.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by dmanrico

I do think your last phrase ("and the BGS folks who committed fraud are found") sets an unrealistic hurdle for this situation. Unless someone at BGS were to come forward, this is a standard that cannot be reached with the investigative avenues open here.

I have seen enough here to be sure that Beckett is a mess, whether or not there is actual fraud going on. If 9.5 is gem mint, that should be the high end of the grading scale. All this 10 and Black Label stuff looks to be nonsense to me.

[sethc1020]

Originally Posted by Ballerskrip

I am just going to post a few thoughts here, maybe for my own sanity.

I have known Joe for over 15 years. He was my rep at BGS for years actually. I have had the joy of making many relationships in this hobby in person at shows, through vendors, through grading, through message boards, facebook groups, etc etc. I consider myself a good judge of character, as someone who works in national sales, being able to pick out bad apples or those people that aren't worth your time is paramount. With that being said, Joe Clemons in my eyes is and was one of the one good guys. He is one of the nicest dang guys that you could meet in this industry or any other. He was one of the few people that I always looked forward to seeing when a big show would come to Chicago. He has always been nothing but truthful, fair, and on the up and up in every dealing that I have ever had with him. Joe is one of probably 10-15 people in this hobby full of slimeballs, that I would trust with my collection, my wallet, etc.

Secondly, Brent, you are good dude as well. But I am not buying your "guaranteed grades" story. At least not fully. I was a big BGS customer for a while, we were grading 500-1000 cards a month, and I can 1000000% guarantee we weren't promise a single thing. The only thing we were promised were our prices kept going up after the economy shifted positively and BGS turned into greedy turds.

And for anyone that thinks I am some BGS shill, well, you don't know me. I have been very very outspoken about BGS and the way they treat their customers. I was a very good customer for them, when things were BAD, when BGS was begging for cards, we submitted a TON. When things got good for BGS, they kicked us to the side like 2 day old bagels. Just want to make that clear from the jump.

Most will just ignore this, and that's cool. But for those of you who sit behind a computer all day, never been to shows, never built relationships in this industry, and want to go after a really good guy because he works for Leaf and used to work for BGS, get a life. I realize there is more to than that for most, but I firmly believe that if he didn't work at these companies, none of you would jump to the conclusions that you are.

Thats good to know but really means nothing to the questions at hand. Nobody here said he's not a super nice guy in person or just a great guy in general in his personal relationships. Just questioning whether he is getting inside or preferential treatment at Beckett on his grading. That's all everyone wants to know. If its true I believe its Much More Damaging to BGS than him in the long run. Lets all be honest, If we had an inside connection that could guarantee us black labels on our submissions would you take advantage of that connection? I think the vast majority would, myself included. Temptation and Money can and will get the best of even the most honest of people out there. Not saying its right but????

[no10pin]

Originally Posted by pspa123

All because of the refusal to post the actual facts.

We all know Joe isn't going to do it. Dan has the info, and he's putting it together now. I'm going to wait until he posts it, and then I'll freak out.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by no10pin

We all know Joe isn't going to do it. Dan has the info, and he's putting it together now. I'm going to wait until he posts it, and then I'll freak out.

People should not accept that "Joe isn't going to do it." I have not heard one good reason.

[no10pin]

Originally Posted by pspa123

People should not accept that "Joe isn't going to do it." I have not heard one good reason.

LOL, what else can you do? If I was in his shoes, I'd be posting everything I had to prove my innocence, but he's choosing a different path. You can't force him to post anything, so whether people 'accept' it or not, this is how we are going to get the info. The fact that he wouldn't do it on his own isn't going to help his case IMO.

[calculusdork]

Originally Posted by no10pin

LOL, what else can you do? If I was in his shoes, I'd be posting everything I had to prove my innocence, but he's choosing a different path. You can't force him to post anything, so whether people 'accept' it or not, this is how we are going to get the info. The fact that he wouldn't do it on his own isn't going to help his case IMO.

If you think about it ... Joe probably isn't posting because someone asked him to stop posting. Maybe someone who has been posting a TON in this thread.

[Mister2Bits]

Joe might be a really nice guy and he probably has helped many people in the past but that doesn't negate statistics. Either he has the eye of sauron when determining which cards to grade or he has help on the inside.

Given he has worked at Beckett, lives in the area, drops his packages off in person and openly admits to being friends with current graders and employees - I think it's safe to come to the conclusion that something nefarious has (is?) happened (happening?).

I'm not sure posting his orders is going to help when he already admitted going 3/3 on an order. While not impossible it's extremely statistically improbable.

I will decide personally when Beckett responds, but I don't see myself ever using their services again or ever being interested in buying a black label. IMO, they are tainted from this point forward.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by no10pin

LOL, what else can you do? If I was in his shoes, I'd be posting everything I had to prove my innocence, but he's choosing a different path. You can't force him to post anything, so whether people 'accept' it or not, this is how we are going to get the info. The fact that he wouldn't do it on his own isn't going to help his case IMO.

Yes of course, and maybe I missed it, but when I jumped back in earlier on this point it didn't look to me like there was that much outrage about the process, which I think there should be.

[Mister2Bits]

Originally Posted by Bassplayah101

https://twitter.com/SportsCardRadio/...236892165?s=19

Looks like the FBI is getting involved in the PSA scandal. Guarantee they have read this thread too. Sleep tight!

[dizzydolse]

Originally Posted by Mister2Bits

Joe might be a really nice guy and he probably has helped many people in the past but that doesn't negate statistics. Either he has the eye of sauron when determining which cards to grade or he has help on the inside.

Given he has worked at Beckett, lives in the area, drops his packages off in person and openly admits to being friends with current graders and employees - I think it's safe to come to the conclusion that something nefarious has (is?) happened (happening?).

I'm not sure posting his orders is going to help when he already admitted going 3/3 on an order. While not impossible it's extremely statistically improbable.

I will decide personally when Beckett responds, but I don't see myself ever using their services again or ever being interested in buying a black label. IMO, they are tainted from this point forward.

Exactly man, all of this. Plus, we've already established that even if Joe Clemons had the eye of Sauron, it still wouldn't translate into that many BL because the actual people grading the cards do not have that same eye. You are splitting hairs when determining the difference between a 9.5 and a 10, and a 10 and a BL.

And Joe probably is a decent guy, and if I built the kinds of relationships within the hobby that he has, and was offered preferential treatment, I would probably accept it too. But the way they went about executing this level of preferential treatment is just stupid and careless, and could really put Beckett in a bind as a company. As I said, damage is done for sure.

[DaRitz]

The plot twist is going to be grand.

Followed by a bunch of deleted/edited posts and "Yeah but..." comments.

[Peties Army]

So his response was deleted? I’d like to read it