PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Greg, look at it this way: if someone were actively defending PWCC they would be able to take those two statements that you made (not the information you shared, I'm talking about the two declaratory final judgments that you reached) and use them to say "look, the people that are investigating Brent are making leaps of logic and passing judgments on him without actually having the evidence!"

That's the concern. I don't doubt "what you know." I'm saying we have to stick to what we can prove and if we can't prove it yet then it gets tabled until we can. We already know there are people just looking for ANY crack in the glass to blow it out of proportion. Brent now has a monster legal team on his side.

Arthur

The authorities investigating this case have the power to obtain documents. From PWCC, from Brent, from TPGs, from AHs. And people will cooperate with the authorities who are reluctant to share information that will be posted on the internet. The authorities aren't going to investigate or prosecute this case based on Blowout posts and nobody is going to defend the case based on any perceived deficiencies in Blowout posts. "We" are at best calling attention to matters the authorities may wish to pursue, but mostly educating collectors. Your concern, to me, is unfounded.

[KhalDrogo]

I’m not sure how any fallacy in a Blowout post will help Brent. The pattern is obvious to everyone. Now it is up to the authorities to make the case.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

I’m not sure how any fallacy in a Blowout post will help Brent. The pattern is obvious to everyone. Now it is up to the authorities to make the case.

There's no fallacy anyhow. People have confirmed Brent bought some of these cards, they're all on the same submission, over half were rejected as altered and the rest appear altered by before and after scans. I'm waiting to hear a plausible alternative theory? By the way, people use circumstantial evidence as though it was a pejorative term, guess what, many cases are built on circumstantial evidence.

And in any case, if the feds pursue this, the documents will show what they show.

[shagrotn77]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

me either. he was young.

I always found it interesting that Cortney died under mysterious circumstances with all that was going on.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Greg, look at it this way: if someone were actively defending PWCC they would be able to take those two statements that you made (not the information you shared, I'm talking about the two declaratory final judgments that you reached) and use them to say "look, the people that are investigating Brent are making leaps of logic and passing judgments on him without actually having the evidence!"

That's the concern. I don't doubt "what you know." I'm saying we have to stick to what we can prove and if we can't prove it yet then it gets tabled until we can. We already know there are people just looking for ANY crack in the glass to blow it out of proportion. Brent now has a monster legal team on his side.

Arthur

Arthur, as I stated in the PM to you and Peter elaborated on it earlier, people defending Brent here is not going to reduce his chances of going to prison. I am not necessarily trying to prove anything here either. I am just trying to get information to people when I can.

Greg

[corndog]

Originally Posted by shagrotn77

I always found it interesting that Cortney died under mysterious circumstances with all that was going on.

From what I can recall reading about it, he had a terminal illness and wrote about it. I may be mistaken but I think it was a form of leukemia.

[Onepocketj]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

Arthur, as I stated in the PM to you and Peter elaborated on it earlier, people defending Brent here is not going to reduce his chances of going to prison. I am not necessarily trying to prove anything here either. I am just trying to get information to people when I can.

Greg

I know what you're saying but I agree with Harry as well. People look for anything to grasp onto. You saw the article from the other publication where hundreds of cards were proven but they focused on the two that were erroneously posted. I think if you posted your findings without the leap of faith declaration at the end, there wouldn't have been any issue. That is what other people will focus on, not the findings, the unfounded statement at the end which has no backup. It's sad but true.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by Onepocketj

I know what you're saying but I agree with Harry as well. People look for anything to grasp onto. You saw the article from the other publication where hundreds of cards were proven but they focused on the two that were erroneously posted. I think if you posted your findings without the leap of faith declaration at the end, there wouldn't have been any issue. That is what other people will focus on, not the findings, the unfounded statement at the end which has no backup. It's sad but true.

That's my point. They've identified hundreds of altered cards and the news article focused on the single mistake someone made. You can post the information without the commentary. We all know what it really means.

Arthur

[3124508 on COMC]

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1509568
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1555863

[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

That's my point. They've identified hundreds of altered cards and the news article focused on the single mistake someone made. You can post the information without the commentary. We all know what it really means.

Arthur

From what I am reading on this forum and Net54, David Seideman is/was friends with Dick Towle's son Adam on Facebook. They both run a business "Gone with the Stain" aka removing stains from expensive sports cards ... I don't know the relationship the two share, if any, but I personally get the impression he has bias writing his articles.

Friendly reminder to Seideman and everyone else:
Altered Stock
This term is used when the paper stock is altered in one or more of the following ways: trimming, recoloring, restoring, or enhancing the gloss. (https://www.psacard.com/Resources/Lingo/A)

You know who you are:
*Card doctors (individuals altering cards)
*Auction houses selling known altered cards
*Individuals touting cards as "investments" while practicing deception
*Market Manipulation!
*TPG's promising certain grades to bulk submitters (if true)
You all are ruining this hobby!

[dhendrix1303]

These grading services will get raided by the Feds within 5 years.

So hear me!

[pspa123]

We heard all the same stuff when charging that a group of guys were manipulating prices in 2016. Funny how that all died down when Brent admitted it was happening.

[bensie]

Originally Posted by pspa123

We heard all the same stuff when charging that a group of guys were manipulating prices in 2016. Funny how that all died down when Brent admitted it was happening.

Where did he admit that? Link?

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by bensie

Where did he admit that? Link?

In a 54 thread, I'll look for it later if you can't find it.

[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by pspa123

In a 54 thread, I'll look for it later if you can't find it.

pspa123 that would be great if you could share that link! Thanks!

[bensie]

Originally Posted by pspa123

In a 54 thread, I'll look for it later if you can't find it.

I'll poke around a bit and see if I can find it. I wasn't really fully immersed in the hobby back then, so I didn't see it unfold in real time. Since I learned about it, I have been interested in the 2016 runup of certain cards. There were a lot of long threads talking about a 'buyers club', but I never recalled seeing any smoking gun (esp not from Brent).

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by Bruins1993

pspa123 that would be great if you could share that link! Thanks!

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=224662

There may be others.

This was posted at a time when many cards like high end Rose, Koufax, Ryan, etc. had doubled, tripled, or more, literally overnight. Not long after -- surprise -- they started dropping.

"Yes, I do believe this hobby is getting pushed hard by a limited number of collector/investors. Not sure exactly how many heavy investors there are, but I’d say the people most responsible number more than 10 and probably less than 30."

[houdini]

Two points moving forward:

Please take the arguments to PM.

Please only post something as fact if you can post the proof.

[pspa123]

Here's a few months of Pete Rose 8s from 2016 for a bit of context.


6/8/16 eBay Image probstein123 k***2 BIN $16,000.00
6/3/16 eBay Image triplesssinc i***b BIN $16,000.00
6/2/16 eBay Image probstein123 3***l BIN $16,000.00
5/23/16 eBay Image korthjc d***d Best Offer $16,000.00
5/20/16 eBay Image probstein123 1***n BIN $16,000.00
5/15/16 eBay Image aerial_avenger d***d 63 $16,000.00
5/14/16 Heritage Image 15 $16,730.00
4/12/16 eBay Image somersetvelvet n***n Best Offer $5,600.00
3/9/16 eBay Image pwcc_auctions 7***r 35 $4,494.00
3/5/16 eBay Image evans6161 1***s BIN $3,650.00
3/5/16 eBay Image evans6161 1***s BIN $3,650.00

[pspa123]

Fast forward.

6/20/19 eBay Auction | Image probstein123 6***l 34 $4,789.00
5/11/19 Goldin Auction | Image 15 $5,227.50
4/28/19 eBay Auction | Image 211pine o***r 27 $4,963.00
3/24/19 REA Auction | Image 11 $3,600.00
3/23/19 eBay Auction | Image jfmbos3000 y***n 50 $4,000.00
3/14/19 eBay Auction | Image pwcc_auctions 0***7 49 $5,856.00
2/27/19 eBay Listing | Image authenticbaseballcards p***n Best Offer $4,500.00
2/24/19 Heritage Auction | Image 10 $4,320.00
2/14/19 eBay Auction | Image pwcc_auctions t***1 36 $5,209.00
1/16/19 eBay Auction | Image pwcc_auctions w***1 44 $5,655.55

[ken161]

This card appears to have a new "L" painted in the back on "Joltin." At first I didn't notice. I was too mesmerized by the massive tape stains removed.


Seriously, how can anyone look at all of the evidence in this thread of massive card doctoring and then shell out five or six figures on a graded card? Unbelievable.

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1509568
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1555863

[T206Collector]

Sorry if I missed this someplace else on BO, but it sure looks like civil claims are underway...

https://twitter.com/Paul_Lesko/statu...74267757502464

[corndog]

SGC Cert #0862460

1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson RC #79

Value gain of $8,705.00

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA-5 on September 10, 2018 for $8,950.00. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1740333
Same card was sold by PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a SGC-6.5 for $17,655.00 on February 11, 2019. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1904512

From the SGC-6.5 listing description: "This has just returned from SGC, having survived their highly strict present day standards."

Yellow circles are print or fiber identifiers.
Red squares identify colored in hickey (print flaw) as well as the overall cleaning.

[KhalDrogo]

Poor guy who paid $17k for another card that’s been white washed.

[superdan49]

Lower left frontal corner of that Robinson appears to have been altered as well.