Visit Card Trimmer Justin Stafford of Mohawk Sports Cards at the National- Booth 619

[auctionjmm]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

Just saw a post of yours defending tntnorthnj in 2014. Some things never change.

So i was wrong about something in 2014, which since then there has been ample evidence to show that I was wrong. I'm not allowed to change my mind about something in light of new evidence? There are old videos of Joe Biden criticizing Obama before he became president. Was he supposed to turn down the VP gig because of something he said in the past that he was wrong about?

And I am certainly not defending trimmers. I want these guys prosecuted as much as anyone. It's bad for the hobby. I was calling to question the methodology of it all. To post photos and booth numbers and then say you don't have time to call a promoter to present the evidence. Yes, I called that strategy to question. I'm sure some agree with me. I'm sure some disagree with me. That has nothing at all to do with my feelings about fraud in the industry.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by pspa123

312 must have worked for a lot of trimmers then.

LOL.

Someone sent me a rumor last night that they heard 312 was a 14-year-old kid. Not joking.

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by superdan49

LOL.

Someone sent me a rumor last night that they heard 312 was a 14-year-old kid. Not joking.

Kevin Burge cut my umbilical cord.

[Bigbluesooner]

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

And if it's not?

I've talked to a lot of National dealers about this issue already. The consensus is that they are all staying out of it. A.) Because it doesn't affect them, B.) Because they don't know who 312 is and how much of the information released is valid enough to remove anyone from the show floor. Most dealers want to peacefully setup at the show, run their businesses, and not have the responsibility of taking action based on what someone else has said. If this is a criminal matter, they would prefer the police to deal with it.

One dealer said to me "How do we know 312 isn't a former associate of a trimmer who was cut out of the operation and now is posting this stuff to get back at them?" I told the dealer I doubted that was the case, but if one guy is thinking this, maybe there are more.

From what I know and who I've talked to, the dealers are staying far away from this.

I don't think its asking much for the one person who has all of this information to be the one to make a few phone calls or send a few letters.

[rngrdanny22]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

Kevin Burge cut my umbilical cord.

And you cut your teeth on 1950's Mickey Mantles...

[bigunitcards]

Originally Posted by superdan49

Someone sent me a rumor last night that they heard 312 was a 14-year-old kid. Not joking.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

So i was wrong about something in 2014, which since then there has been ample evidence to show that I was wrong. I'm not allowed to change my mind about something in light of new evidence? There are old videos of Joe Biden criticizing Obama before he became president. Was he supposed to turn down the VP gig because of something he said in the past that he was wrong about?

And I am certainly not defending trimmers. I want these guys prosecuted as much as anyone. It's bad for the hobby. I was calling to question the methodology of it all. To post photos and booth numbers and then say you don't have time to call a promoter to present the evidence. Yes, I called that strategy to question. I'm sure some agree with me. I'm sure some disagree with me. That has nothing at all to do with my feelings about fraud in the industry.

It's great to be against fraud, but again, why is it never industry participants' responsibility to do something about it, which is how I am taking (perhaps wrongly) what you are saying? I've had this same conversation with other dealers, their attitude is I support you but I won't help. Great. Someone else's problem to fix.

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by pspa123

And what's stopping collectors from contacting the promoters? I wouldn't expect dealers to actually take a stand against fraud, how often is that going to happen, for the reasons you state all too well? Been watching it for years on the vintage side as those who know what's going on just stand idly by and think it's someone else's job to clean it up. Or worse, profit from the umbrella effect on prices.

Yeah, it's 312's job not only to out the fraud but to go out and convince people to act on it. While everyone else just sits back and observes.

^ This is all on the money...so many folks in this hobby who just chase the dollar at all costs, ethics, honor and principles be damned...the vermin associated with my prior career drove me (thankfully) to another profession.

[Zhamlau]

Lot of derailers and drama starters popping up in the last few days.

[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by pspa123

It's great to be against fraud, but again, why is it never industry participants' responsibility to do something about it, which is how I am taking (perhaps wrongly) what you are saying? I've had this same conversation with other dealers, their attitude is I support you but I won't help. Great. Someone else's problem to fix.

I like the “Keep me out of this” statement made by a dealer or auction executive quoted on entirely different story of deception when asked for comment.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

And if it's not?

I've talked to a lot of National dealers about this issue already. The consensus is that they are all staying out of it. A.) Because it doesn't affect them, B.) Because they don't know who 312 is and how much of the information released is valid enough to remove anyone from the show floor. Most dealers want to peacefully setup at the show, run their businesses, and not have the responsibility of taking action based on what someone else has said. If this is a criminal matter, they would prefer the police to deal with it.

One dealer said to me "How do we know 312 isn't a former associate of a trimmer who was cut out of the operation and now is posting this stuff to get back at them?" I told the dealer I doubted that was the case, but if one guy is thinking this, maybe there are more.

From what I know and who I've talked to, the dealers are staying far away from this.

I don't think its asking much for the one person who has all of this information to be the one to make a few phone calls or send a few letters.

I don't think 312, Dan, and corndog are doing what they're doing to get these guys off the floor of the National. I'm sorry you can't see that.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

There's so much irony in this comment. I would argue that there are just as many internet tough guys in these trimmer threads who wouldn't dare say any of these things to the trimmers' faces. They'll come here and say "the guy's a douche because he named his business after his haircut" but will they come to Chicago and actually tell Justin to his face that he's a douche? Nope.



The only reasonable and realistic replies in this thread were the ones referencing taking this evidence to the show promoters themselves and asking the promoters not to allow known trimmers to set up. I sincerely hope that 312 is taking his information to the promoter, and not simply egging on the BO community in hopes that someone gets drunk enough to go to the booth and start a confrontation. Unless 312 himself is planning on going there to confront the trimmers in a civil manner.



The promoters are the only ones with the power to do anything in Chicago. A BO member walking up to the booth and yelling "this guy sells trimmed cards" will at best create a commotion that makes the accuser look bad, and at worst lead to a physical confrontation. If I was a naive customer walking through a trade show and I saw a patron yelling at a show dealer, my initial impression of the patron would be a negative one. There will be 50,000 people at the show, and probably less than 1% of them with any knowledge of what has been happening in these threads. So if anyone wants to embarrass themselves in front of parents with their children, have at at it, but it won't have the result you are hoping for. This is ALL on 312 to to talk to the promoter BEFORE the show. If that doesn't work, the next best thing is to speak with your wallet and shop elsewhere, and hope that maybe these guys have a bad show because customers are staying away.

This method is a good way to bring more attention to the mess that grading is and at the same time exposes the fraudster.

[notfast]

Piggybacking off the “who is 312” thing...

There is some validity to asking that question, whether you like it on not. If you are hearing about posts like these second hand, which the majority of people are, you may question who is the person behind all these findings.

However, there probably needs to be some sort of anonymity because you’re exposing and messing with someone’s livelihood and who knows what these people would do to someone cutting in to their money.

People will poo poo facts if they don’t know the source and a huge portion of this industry just doesn’t care or acknowledge what’s said anonymously On a forum...even if it’s the truth

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

And if it's not?



I've talked to a lot of National dealers about this issue already. The consensus is that they are all staying out of it. A.) Because it doesn't affect them, B.) Because they don't know who 312 is and how much of the information released is valid enough to remove anyone from the show floor. Most dealers want to peacefully setup at the show, run their businesses, and not have the responsibility of taking action based on what someone else has said. If this is a criminal matter, they would prefer the police to deal with it.



One dealer said to me "How do we know 312 isn't a former associate of a trimmer who was cut out of the operation and now is posting this stuff to get back at them?" I told the dealer I doubted that was the case, but if one guy is thinking this, maybe there are more.



From what I know and who I've talked to, the dealers are staying far away from this.



I don't think its asking much for the one person who has all of this information to be the one to make a few phone calls or send a few letters.

None of these guys want to change a profitable status quo and don’t want to bring attention or law enforcement into the hobby for obvious reasons...

[auctionjmm]

Originally Posted by pspa123

It's great to be against fraud, but again, why is it never industry participants' responsibility to do something about it, which is how I am taking (perhaps wrongly) what you are saying? I've had this same conversation with other dealers, their attitude is I support you but I won't help. Great. Someone else's problem to fix.

The simple answer is human nature. Kitty Genovese syndrome, or bystander effect as some call it. There were 38 witnesses to her being brutally murdered in 1964 and not a single person helped her. Some didn't want to get involved, others assumed someone else would call 911. There are 11 other infamous case studies involving inaction by large groups of people when a crime was occurring.

So if you can't get 38 people to help a woman being murdered, can you get 38 people to take action to stop trimmers?

I don't have a better answer than that. I am part of "human nature" as well because I will be at the show and do not plan to confront anyone. I'm sure many of you will be at the show and will not confront anyone. It's a collective inaction, plain and simple. I didn't mean to come across as the bad guy in pointing that out, but if nobody goes to the promoters or eventually gets law enforcement involved, this will probably drag on for awhile, unfortunately.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

None of these guys want to change a profitable status quo and don’t want to bring attention or law enforcement into the hobby for obvious reasons...

Or they're cool if someone else does the work to clean it up, but they won't lift a finger or even provide information. All while saying how opposed they are to fraud.

[calculusdork]

EDIT: Meh, not worth the time ...

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Or they're cool if someone else does the work to clean it up, but they won't lift a finger or even provide information. All while saying how opposed they are to fraud.

You just described virtually every auction house's attitude about this scandal.

[rcmb3220]

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

The simple answer is human nature. Kitty Genovese syndrome, or bystander effect as some call it. There were 38 witnesses to her being brutally murdered in 1964 and not a single person helped her. Some didn't want to get involved, others assumed someone else would call 911. There are 11 other infamous case studies involving inaction by large groups of people when a crime was occurring.

So if you can't get 38 people to help a woman being murdered, can you get 38 people to take action to stop trimmers?

I don't have a better answer than that. I am part of "human nature" as well because I will be at the show and do not plan to confront anyone. I'm sure many of you will be at the show and will not confront anyone. It's a collective inaction, plain and simple. I didn't mean to come across as the bad guy in pointing that out, but if nobody goes to the promoters or eventually gets law enforcement involved, this will probably drag on for awhile, unfortunately.

An even simpler answer is money.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

The simple answer is human nature. Kitty Genovese syndrome, or bystander effect as some call it. There were 38 witnesses to her being brutally murdered in 1964 and not a single person helped her. Some didn't want to get involved, others assumed someone else would call 911. There are 11 other infamous case studies involving inaction by large groups of people when a crime was occurring.

So if you can't get 38 people to help a woman being murdered, can you get 38 people to take action to stop trimmers?

I don't have a better answer than that. I am part of "human nature" as well because I will be at the show and do not plan to confront anyone. I'm sure many of you will be at the show and will not confront anyone. It's a collective inaction, plain and simple. I didn't mean to come across as the bad guy in pointing that out, but if nobody goes to the promoters or eventually gets law enforcement involved, this will probably drag on for awhile, unfortunately.

So why don't you contact the promoters with the information that's been provided?

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by superdan49

You just described virtually every auction house's attitude about this scandal.

Why would that surprise you, these are the same businesses that have been taking card doctor consignments for decades knowing damn well what they were doing?

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

I didn't mean to come across as the bad guy in pointing that out, but if nobody goes to the promoters or eventually gets law enforcement involved, this will probably drag on for awhile, unfortunately.

Well good thing law enforcement is involved already.

[dizzydolse]

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

The simple answer is human nature. Kitty Genovese syndrome, or bystander effect as some call it. There were 38 witnesses to her being brutally murdered in 1964 and not a single person helped her. Some didn't want to get involved, others assumed someone else would call 911. There are 11 other infamous case studies involving inaction by large groups of people when a crime was occurring.

So if you can't get 38 people to help a woman being murdered, can you get 38 people to take action to stop trimmers?

I don't have a better answer than that. I am part of "human nature" as well because I will be at the show and do not plan to confront anyone. I'm sure many of you will be at the show and will not confront anyone. It's a collective inaction, plain and simple. I didn't mean to come across as the bad guy in pointing that out, but if nobody goes to the promoters or eventually gets law enforcement involved, this will probably drag on for awhile, unfortunately.

You say it's unfortunate if it drags on a while, and, you are admittedly part of that "human nature" group in the example you provided. You are also convinced of the fact that there are many, many "internet tough guys" who wold never do anything, and scoff at the possibility of someone saying something because they will be drunk and will inevitably lead to confrontation?

My question for you is, why do you have no desire to say something to these people that you know for a fact are committing fraud and actively destroying the hobby and business you are very much a part of? Is it because you hope someone else will do it, don't care enough, want to avoid any confrontation at all costs? Serious question.

[KingRybo]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

how so?

could be they were not able to be graded

I just sold him some stuff, never traded or bought from him. He was very hard to deal with trade wise, but he liked my prices most of the time for selling.

[smgcards]

How does anyone know for fact about any of this? Is everyone just taking 312's information as gospel? Has anyone done their own fact checking? Has anyone actually seen any one of the accused trim a card? Is there video evidence of any specific person trimming? Is it plausible, as someone stated earlier, that 312 was the trimmer for all these people and everyone sent him the cards to trim and when he got cutoff of the profits he started creating these threads?

Originally Posted by dizzydolse

You say it's unfortunate if it drags on a while, and, you are admittedly part of that "human nature" group in the example you provided. You are also convinced of the fact that there are many, many "internet tough guys" who wold never do anything, and scoff at the possibility of someone saying something because they will be drunk and will inevitably lead to confrontation?

My question for you is, why do you have no desire to say something to these people that you know for a fact are committing fraud and actively destroying the hobby and business you are very much a part of? Is it because you hope someone else will do it, don't care enough, want to avoid any confrontation at all costs? Serious question.