PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by Pink Pussycat

By far the best explanation is that these otherwise "smart people" are deeply invested in PSA Slabs. The need to maintain high value in their collections over-rides any speck of common sense. Outside of their blind PSA allegiance, they appear to be reasonable and intelligent people.



Take away their slabbed collections, and sanity would be restored. Their staunch defense of PSA is money and status related... a true microcosm of the bigger problem in this corrupt scheme.



Secondly, there is an "addictive" aspect to their PSA worship. I know many PSA addicts get a "high" of sorts, when their newly submitted cards are returned to them in slabs. Some will describe these mail days as "the best day in their life" or "the most exciting day of the week" or "the highlight of my year". Ask any addict, whether it's drugs, alcohol, sex or gambling.... THE ADDICTION always supersedes common sense.



And PSA (better than anyone) knows how to exploit the addiction.

So they will need a support group to function normally.

This isn’t to say there isn’t a need for slabs, just a more healthy and sane approach. It starts with a balanced lifestyle.

It makes sense that PSA, other graders, and slab sellers know of their addiction, and that they actively cultivate it. I’d imagine big “J” type and OCD personalities are targets. It does make sense that this is different than a card addiction and that it supplements or compliments a card addiction for many. I’m no shrink, but a lot of this makes sense.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by Pink Pussycat

By far the best explanation is that these otherwise "smart people" are deeply invested in PSA Slabs. The need to maintain high value in their collections over-rides any speck of common sense. Outside of their blind PSA allegiance, they appear to be reasonable and intelligent people.

Take away their slabbed collections, and sanity would be restored. Their staunch defense of PSA is money and status related... a true microcosm of the bigger problem in this corrupt scheme.

Secondly, there is an "addictive" aspect to their PSA worship. I know many PSA addicts get a "high" of sorts, when their newly submitted cards are returned to them in slabs. Some will describe these mail days as "the best day in their life" or "the most exciting day of the week" or "the highlight of my year". Ask any addict, whether it's drugs, alcohol, sex or gambling.... THE ADDICTION always supersedes common sense.

And PSA (better than anyone) knows how to exploit the addiction.

You're insane. This is the very definition of gaslighting. Anyone that doesn't line up with your view of things must be under some sort of conspiracy where they've lost all rational thought? That's quite a healthy opinion of yourself you have.

I've been reading PSA mailday threads for years and I've never once seen anyone refer to it as "the best day in their life" or "the highlight of my year." Feel free to source just one example of that, I'd love to see it.

Am I at the point where I think PSA is "in on it?" I suppose you'd have to define what "in on it" entails. I think they very clearly have been criminally (in our sense of the word) incompetent and that may have included some sort of veil of ignorance as they just tried to keep up with submissions. But even when we pull up huge trimmed submissions we find a decent amount of cards get rejected for Evid Trimming so they obviously were doing their job to some degree. That degree was just sorely inept.

Do I think there's a conspiracy where bags of money are changing hands in parking lots and other cloak & dagger stuff? I'm not there yet. I still only see grotesque incompetence, no malice. But there's certainly malice in this hobby so I'm not writing it off. I'm simply saying I haven't seen roof yet and this is something I want to see actual proof of before I hang my hat on it.

But I think corndog is pulling on the right thread right now and if anyone can find what we're looking for, it's BODA.

Arthur

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

You're insane. This is the very definition of gaslighting. Anyone that doesn't line up with your view of things must be under some sort of conspiracy where they've lost all rational thought? That's quite a healthy opinion of yourself you have.



I've been reading PSA mailday threads for years and I've never once seen anyone refer to it as "the best day in their life" or "the highlight of my year." Feel free to source just one example of that, I'd love to see it.



Am I at the point where I think PSA is "in on it?" I suppose you'd have to define what "in on it" entails. I think they very clearly have been criminally (in our sense of the word) incompetent and that may have included some sort of veil of ignorance as they just tried to keep up with submissions. But even when we pull up huge trimmed submissions we find a decent amount of cards get rejected for Evid Trimming so they obviously were doing their job to some degree. That degree was just sorely inept.



Do I think there's a conspiracy where bags of money are changing hands in parking lots and other cloak & dagger stuff? I'm not there yet. I still only see grotesque incompetence, no malice. But there's certainly malice in this hobby so I'm not writing it off. I'm simply saying I haven't seen roof yet and this is something I want to see actual proof of before I hang my hat on it.



But I think corndog is pulling on the right thread right now and if anyone can find what we're looking for, it's BODA.



Arthur

There are many PSA mail day threads. While these seem odd...and even crazy to non-graders, they’re apparently important to some. Although I can’t tell sometimes if these threads are used as a way to advertise and sell new slabs, at least some of the time the OPs seem a “little too excited”, as if they pulled a superfractor even though their newly slabbed cards aren’t new and haven’t undergone some metamorphosis.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

There are many PSA mail day threads. While these seem odd...and even crazy to non-graders, they’re apparently important to some. Although I can’t tell sometimes if these threads are used as a way to advertise and sell new slabs, at least some of the time the OPs seem a “little too excited”, as if they pulled a superfractor even though their newly slabbed cards aren’t new and haven’t undergone some metamorphosis.

There's a big difference between someone hitting a gem mint grade that is going to pay for their whole submission and give them a big chunk of cash to go card shopping with and someone that loses the capacity for rational thought and ceases to behave in reality.

Arthur

[cking]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

I think they very clearly have been criminally (in our sense of the word) incompetent and that may have included some sort of veil of ignorance as they just tried to keep up with submissions.

I still only see grotesque incompetence.


Arthur

These are the things I believe people have trouble with.

You say these things...........but yet you still seem to believe in PSA and the process of grading.

I think that strikes some people as strange.

grotesque incompetence

criminally incompetent

Those are some harsh things to say about a company. Yet you still seem to have faith in them.

You are a very smart person.......................you have to be able to see how others may perceive that as odd.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by cking

These are the things I believe people have trouble with.

You say these things...........but yet you still seem to believe in PSA and the process of grading.

I think that strikes some people as strange.

grotesque incompetence

criminally incompetent

Those are some harsh things to say about a company. Yet you still seem to have faith in them.

You are a very smart person.......................you have to be able to see how others may perceive that as odd.

I'm not sure I understand. What do you mean I "believe in PSA and the process of grading?" Or that I have faith in them?

You guys somehow interpret my posts as pro-PSA, like I'm defending them. That's not on me, that's a problem on your end. I'm simply removing emotion from the equation and evaluating things based on what I know for certain.

It looks like there's something rotten in Denmark but it's also a HUGE leap to go from grotesque incompetence to "on the take." But because I'm not full-throated conspiracy theorist some of you think I'm supporting them. I don't know how you make that connection.

Arthur

[Pink Pussycat]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

I'm not sure I understand. What do you mean I "believe in PSA and the process of grading?" Or that I have faith in them?

You guys somehow interpret my posts as pro-PSA, like I'm defending them. That's not on me, that's a problem on your end. I'm simply removing emotion from the equation and evaluating things based on what I know for certain.

It looks like there's something rotten in Denmark but it's also a HUGE leap to go from grotesque incompetence to "on the take." But because I'm not full-throated conspiracy theorist some of you think I'm supporting them. I don't know how you make that connection.

Arthur

From your many stellar posts, I personally think you are very intelligent, extremely well read, and know the hobby like very few others do. You write beautifully, do amazing research, and care deeply about the hobby. That is quite evident. I have nothing but respect for you (even though you called me insane, along with a few other nice barbs).

But I am with the others in my disbelief of how you can continue to be supportive of PSA. To me, their credibility was gone eons ago, and nothing has surfaced to change my mind. Quite the opposite, actually. If PSA expressed one iota of remorse for wronged collectors, listened to concerned collectors (instead of dismissing/censoring/banning them), or revealed a plan to improve their authentication practices, it might be a slightly different story.

But unfortunately PSA's top management has turned its back on us, ridiculed us, and alienated those who are deeply concerned (granted, most collectors are not even aware, or prefer to have their heads in the sand). Many of us simply cannot comprehend how a rational, intelligent, top-notch collector such as yourself can continue to support a company that has made so many thousands of inexcusable mistakes, and shows no remorse, or any plans for change or improvement. It just makes no sense.

It's like a battered wife in an abusive marriage... many of us cannot understand why they stay, and how they just keep coming back for more. I do believe that there is an addiction aspect to this. I am talking from experience. I have OCD/Addictive tendencies, and understand a lot about it. These tendencies certainly manifest themselves as a big part of my collecting hobby, and I know there are many others like me. I am not saying that you (Harry Lime) have this affliction in any way, shape or form. But I know many of us who do. And I know there are many others who are hypnotized by the Registry and the way it feeds their ego and status.

The fact that people have tons of money tied up in TPG grading is the other prevailing factor. The money/investment factor is an obvious reason that people continue to give PSA a pass, and support them to no end. These cards represents a big percentage of their portfolios, and they would rather support a corrupt enterprise than see their net worth compromised. If that belief makes me insane, so be it.

Again... not singling anyone out, but deep down I'm confident that many of you know who you are.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

There's a big difference between someone hitting a gem mint grade that is going to pay for their whole submission and give them a big chunk of cash to go card shopping with and someone that loses the capacity for rational thought and ceases to behave in reality.



Arthur

It’s very easy for anyone to disagree. For many many people who submit cards, they certainly do lose the capacity for rational thought and cease to behave rationally simply because they think they CAN go out shopping, and likely not for cards.

[chuckerrrr]

Originally Posted by Pink Pussycat

From your many stellar posts, I personally think you are very intelligent, extremely well read, and know the hobby like very few others do. You write beautifully, do amazing research, and care deeply about the hobby. That is quite evident. I have nothing but respect for you (even though you called me insane, along with a few other nice barbs).

But I am with the others in my disbelief of how you can continue to be supportive of PSA. To me, their credibility was gone eons ago, and nothing has surfaced to change my mind. Quite the opposite, actually. If PSA expressed one iota of remorse for wronged collectors, listened to concerned collectors (instead of dismissing/censoring/banning them), or revealed a plan to improve their authentication practices, it might be a slightly different story.

But unfortunately PSA's top management has turned its back on us, ridiculed us, and alienated those who are deeply concerned (granted, most collectors are not even aware, or prefer to have their heads in the sand). Many of us simply cannot comprehend how a rational, intelligent, top-notch collector such as yourself can continue to support a company that has made so many thousands of inexcusable mistakes, and shows no remorse, or any plans for change or improvement. It just makes no sense.

It's like a battered wife in an abusive marriage... many of us cannot understand why they stay, and how they just keep coming back for more. I do believe that there is an addiction aspect to this. I am talking from experience. I have OCD/Addictive tendencies, and understand a lot about it. These tendencies certainly manifest themselves as a big part of my collecting hobby, and I know there are many others like me. I am not saying that you (Harry Lime) have this affliction in any way, shape or form. But I know many of us who do. And I know there are many others who are hypnotized by the Registry and the way it feeds their ego and status.

The fact that people have tons of money tied up in TPG grading is the other prevailing factor. The money/investment factor is an obvious reason that people continue to give PSA a pass, and support them to no end. These cards represents a big percentage of their portfolios, and they would rather support a corrupt enterprise than see their net worth compromised. If that belief makes me insane, so be it.

Again... not singling anyone out, but deep down I'm confident that many of you know who you are.

Very well said. Some people only see $$$. Like all people obsessed with money and status they do whatever it takes to gain over others. Integrity, honesty and goodwill go out the window.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by Pink Pussycat

From your many stellar posts, I personally think you are very intelligent, extremely well read, and know the hobby like very few others do. You write beautifully, do amazing research, and care deeply about the hobby. That is quite evident. I have nothing but respect for you (even though you called me insane, along with a few other nice barbs).

But I am with the others in my disbelief of how you can continue to be supportive of PSA. To me, their credibility was gone eons ago, and nothing has surfaced to change my mind. Quite the opposite, actually. If PSA expressed one iota of remorse for wronged collectors, listened to concerned collectors (instead of dismissing/censoring/banning them), or revealed a plan to improve their authentication practices, it might be a slightly different story.

But unfortunately PSA's top management has turned its back on us, ridiculed us, and alienated those who are deeply concerned (granted, most collectors are not even aware, or prefer to have their heads in the sand). Many of us simply cannot comprehend how a rational, intelligent, top-notch collector such as yourself can continue to support a company that has made so many thousands of inexcusable mistakes, and shows no remorse, or any plans for change or improvement. It just makes no sense.

It's like a battered wife in an abusive marriage... many of us cannot understand why they stay, and how they just keep coming back for more. I do believe that there is an addiction aspect to this. I am talking from experience. I have OCD/Addictive tendencies, and understand a lot about it. These tendencies certainly manifest themselves as a big part of my collecting hobby, and I know there are many others like me. I am not saying that you (Harry Lime) have this affliction in any way, shape or form. But I know many of us who do. And I know there are many others who are hypnotized by the Registry and the way it feeds their ego and status.

The fact that people have tons of money tied up in TPG grading is the other prevailing factor. The money/investment factor is an obvious reason that people continue to give PSA a pass, and support them to no end. These cards represents a big percentage of their portfolios, and they would rather support a corrupt enterprise than see their net worth compromised. If that belief makes me insane, so be it.

Again... not singling anyone out, but deep down I'm confident that many of you know who you are.

Thank you for taking the time to write out a thoughtful and well articulated post. I apologize about the insane comment. I'll try my best to address all of your points.

I don't think that my lack of believing (to this point) that there is an active, nefarious agent involved on PSA's end means that I'm supporting them. I think it's quite clear that they've failed the hobby on a significant level and should put doubt in the mind of prospective purchasers. But, like I said before, I try to remove all emotion from my decision making. I'm not angry at PSA. I do not want to see PSA burn in hellfire. Those things would only cloud my view of what is going on and there's SO much more going on than just these outed cards from PSA. Perhaps my lack of vitriol is what comes of as "supportive" when everyone else is so heated, I'm not sure.

The lack of remorse thing. This isn't my first PSA rodeo. If 8 months ago you described to me this set of circumstances I could have told you exactly how Joe O. would respond in public statements. It's the same way he has always responded in every instance where collectors wanted answers about a PSA eff up. Thirteen years ago, something (I can't even remember, it wasn't WIWAG) happened and we got the same closed-mouth stone wall from them and I was furious. I blew my top and posted on boards about how wrong it was and I was just as heated as all of you. So I totally get it. I've just been around that block too many times now. A big mea culpa would be nice but the reality is it means nothing if they aren't going to take action and we're never going to know what action they take, if any, so it's all just a big song and dance anyway.

I'm curious what it is that I write in my posts that makes people think I'm supporting PSA?

At this point I'm left with more questions than answers. There are legendary hobby scumbags out there today and they've never been implicated. In fact, it's almost as though all of this has deliberately been steered away from them. That's not a criticism of BODA at all, but of the tipsters. I think corndog has a fresh scent though and he's a machine so I'm excited to see what he unearths.

Arthur

[Pink Pussycat]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Thank you for taking the time to write out a thoughtful and well articulated post. I apologize about the insane comment. I'll try my best to address all of your points.

I don't think that my lack of believing (to this point) that there is an active, nefarious agent involved on PSA's end means that I'm supporting them. I think it's quite clear that they've failed the hobby on a significant level and should put doubt in the mind of prospective purchasers. But, like I said before, I try to remove all emotion from my decision making. I'm not angry at PSA. I do not want to see PSA burn in hellfire. Those things would only cloud my view of what is going on and there's SO much more going on than just these outed cards from PSA. Perhaps my lack of vitriol is what comes of as "supportive" when everyone else is so heated, I'm not sure.

The lack of remorse thing. This isn't my first PSA rodeo. If 8 months ago you described to me this set of circumstances I could have told you exactly how Joe O. would respond in public statements. It's the same way he has always responded in every instance where collectors wanted answers about a PSA eff up. Thirteen years ago, something (I can't even remember, it wasn't WIWAG) happened and we got the same closed-mouth stone wall from them and I was furious. I blew my top and posted on boards about how wrong it was and I was just as heated as all of you. So I totally get it. I've just been around that block too many times now. A big mea culpa would be nice but the reality is it means nothing if they aren't going to take action and we're never going to know what action they take, if any, so it's all just a big song and dance anyway.

I'm curious what it is that I write in my posts that makes people think I'm supporting PSA?

At this point I'm left with more questions than answers. There are legendary hobby scumbags out there today and they've never been implicated. In fact, it's almost as though all of this has deliberately been steered away from them. That's not a criticism of BODA at all, but of the tipsters. I think corndog has a fresh scent though and he's a machine so I'm excited to see what he unearths.

Arthur

Hey thanks for the added insight, Arthur! Much appreciated...

Regarding the question in bold italics, I think it's just a difference in philosophy. The perception comes from the fact that your outrage is directed solely at PWCC and the Card Doctors. You've made very specific comments cursing and condemning them (and rightfully so!) But there is no apparent or even similar outrage towards PSA, who (for all intents and purposes) is the enabler of all this fraud and deception. You've made a few posts that portray PSA as the victim, and suggest that they can take it upon themselves to fix things by enacting certain measures, etc.

Conversely, many of us see PSA as the bigger problem, because once the card resides in their slab, it can pass muster virtually anywhere. The amount of damage from PSA's authorization in a numbered slab is far reaching. To most collectors, PSA's Slab is validation of the altered card. Thus, the altered card can appear in any auction (from eBay to Heritage to REA). Based on Joe/Steve's comments, we do not believe PSA will take it upon themselves to fix things. They have failed us and lost our trust.

I think that's where the difference lies. We believe they've chosen shareholders over collectors. We want to stop using them all-together, and are not willing to throw another penny their way. Whereas you still want to use/support them and trust them to keep on grading your cards.

Everyone collects differently, and neither side is right or wrong. I don't know what "gaslighting" is, but it does not sound good (and I don't want to be "that guy", haha). So I apologize if I had a bad tone to my post, or came off as arrogant. I can only imagine how amazing your collection must be, and am glad we can have a respectful discussion here (even if we don't agree).

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by Pink Pussycat

Hey thanks for the added insight, Arthur! Much appreciated...

Regarding the question in bold italics, I think it's just a difference in philosophy. The perception comes from the fact that your outrage is directed solely at PWCC and the Card Doctors. You've made very specific comments cursing and condemning them (and rightfully so!) But there is no apparent or even similar outrage towards PSA, who (for all intents and purposes) is the enabler of all this fraud and deception. You've made a few posts that portray PSA as the victim, and suggest that they can take it upon themselves to fix things by enacting certain measures, etc.

Conversely, many of us see PSA as the bigger problem, because once the card resides in their slab, it can pass muster virtually anywhere. The amount of damage from PSA's authorization in a numbered slab is far reaching. To most collectors, PSA's Slab is validation of the altered card. Thus, the altered card can appear in any auction (from eBay to Heritage to REA). Based on Joe/Steve's comments, we do not believe PSA will take it upon themselves to fix things. They have failed us and lost our trust.

I think that's where the difference lies. We believe they've chosen shareholders over collectors. We want to stop using them all-together, and are not willing to throw another penny their way. Whereas you still want to use/support them and trust them to keep on grading your cards.

Everyone collects differently, and neither side is right or wrong. I don't know what "gaslighting" is, but it does not sound good (and I don't want to be "that guy", haha). So I apologize if I had a bad tone to my post, or came off as arrogant. I can only imagine how amazing your collection must be, and am glad we can have a respectful discussion here (even if we don't agree).

If I might add, it's possible to be indifferent towards the grading companies/PSA, and that the real issue is people expecting too much out of them or paying too much for their slabs.

PWCC and others market and price their slabs as if they're infallible, all the while knowing how weak they really are, taking advantage of them by submitting altered cards and by taking advantage of people's (incorrect) attitudes and expectations towards them.

[Pink Pussycat]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

If I might add, it's possible to be indifferent towards the grading companies/PSA, and that the real issue is people expecting too much out of them or paying too much for their slabs.

PWCC and others market and price their slabs as if they're infallible, all the while knowing how weak they really are, taking advantage of them by submitting altered cards and by taking advantage of people's (incorrect) attitudes and expectations towards them.

OK, well... They are the ones telling us to "Never Get Cheated".

Just sayin'

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by Pink Pussycat

OK, well... They are the ones telling us to "Never Get Cheated".

Just sayin'

Ha! A slogan for suckers.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by Pink Pussycat

Hey thanks for the added insight, Arthur! Much appreciated...

Regarding the question in bold italics, I think it's just a difference in philosophy. The perception comes from the fact that your outrage is directed solely at PWCC and the Card Doctors. You've made very specific comments cursing and condemning them (and rightfully so!) But there is no apparent or even similar outrage towards PSA, who (for all intents and purposes) is the enabler of all this fraud and deception. You've made a few posts that portray PSA as the victim, and suggest that they can take it upon themselves to fix things by enacting certain measures, etc.

Conversely, many of us see PSA as the bigger problem, because once the card resides in their slab, it can pass muster virtually anywhere. The amount of damage from PSA's authorization in a numbered slab is far reaching. To most collectors, PSA's Slab is validation of the altered card. Thus, the altered card can appear in any auction (from eBay to Heritage to REA). Based on Joe/Steve's comments, we do not believe PSA will take it upon themselves to fix things. They have failed us and lost our trust.

I think that's where the difference lies. We believe they've chosen shareholders over collectors. We want to stop using them all-together, and are not willing to throw another penny their way. Whereas you still want to use/support them and trust them to keep on grading your cards.

Everyone collects differently, and neither side is right or wrong. I don't know what "gaslighting" is, but it does not sound good (and I don't want to be "that guy", haha). So I apologize if I had a bad tone to my post, or came off as arrogant. I can only imagine how amazing your collection must be, and am glad we can have a respectful discussion here (even if we don't agree).

This was great. I completely understand where you're coming from now, so, thank you for taking the time to articulate it to me so I could understand. I think most people would just throw barbs instead so I really appreciate it.

Yes, we're definitely at different junctures at the moment and I don't fault anyone that feels the way you do. Like I said, 13 years ago I was right where you are now -- steamed and ready to boycott. I completely understand that point of view and I can't fault anyone for having it. I'm not even saying that it's the wrong point of view to have and that mine is better. For all I know, I'm way off and just don't know it yet.

I look at the situation and remove "what I want to happen" and ask myself objectively "what is going to happen?" I don't believe this mass of fraud is going to have a long term effect on third party grading. I know that's not what people want to hear and that's not what I want to happen but if I'm honest with myself and look at how collectors behave there's no other conclusion I can come to. This doesn't mean I'm letting anyone off the hook. This doesn't mean any of us should stop pursuing the truth. This doesn't mean we should continue to use nefarious agents or stop outing them publicly. We should all remain vigilant in all of those areas. But I don't believe:

1. Third-party grading will ever go away.

2. Collectors will ever stop using the registry.

3. There will ever cease to be premiums paid for grading rarities.

I don't believe PSA (or any TPGer) is the biggest bad actor in all of this. That is a brilliant strategy by a great lawyer and it's working. It's also quite convenient that SGC has pretty much avoided any heat from this, especially considering their background and connections. I believe PSA is BOTH victim and participant. They got hoodwinked by business clients that they believed were acting in good faith and were instead committing fraud against them. This absolutely does NOT excuse the fact that they apparently stopped measuring cards for years, be it due to time constraint or some other poor procedural decision. They have to own that and take the heat for that. MANY collectors have been robbed of their money and a legitimate card because of their mass incompetence. Do I believe they intended to do that? No. Therein lies the difference between the different levels of culpability that you and I believe they should be on the hook for. Who is right and who is wrong? I'd argue that it doesn't matter.

The larger, more important point, and the message that we should be shouting in unison no matter what transpires in the future, is DO YOUR WORK. Back when all we had were print price guides people used to say "they're just a guide!" Well, that's how we should look at third party grading going forward. Thanks for your opinion but I'm still going to scour this card for tell-tale signs and examine it for size. I'm still going to take into account provenance and look at its sale history. I'm still going to see if I can find a "before" picture. I'm still going to ask hobby friends what they think. I'm still going to do everything in my power to educate myself so that I'm not dependent on third-party grading. It should be a tool we have in our toolbox, not the finished birdhouse.

So, I guess, in a sense, you're right. I do somewhat support PSA because I do still submit cards to them. I do still buy PSA graded cards. I do still sell PSA graded cards. The same can be said about BGS and SGC, too. That's how the hobby as a collective wants to play the game. I'm not on a crusade. My crusade days are over. I pick and choose my battles over which ones I believe I can win and nothing any of us do is going to change those three things I listed up above. Some of you will look at that and say I gave up or that I'm not really "in it." I think I'm being realistic. I'm choosing not to tilt at windmills. Make change where change can be made.

No matter what happens with all this fraud, this is still going to be my hobby. While I will always care about it, I also want my hobby to be fun. If my hobby turns into me railing online everyday about negative shite then that's just a bunch of negative energy I don't need in my life. This is why I remove the emotion from this and look at it objectively. But I totally respect those of you that can still rail. We need guys like you. I guess just maybe a little less judgment towards those of us that aren't all-in.

Arthur

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

This was great. I completely understand where you're coming from now, so, thank you for taking the time to articulate it to me so I could understand. I think most people would just throw barbs instead so I really appreciate it.

Yes, we're definitely at different junctures at the moment and I don't fault anyone that feels the way you do. Like I said, 13 years ago I was right where you are now -- steamed and ready to boycott. I completely understand that point of view and I can't fault anyone for having it. I'm not even saying that it's the wrong point of view to have and that mine is better. For all I know, I'm way off and just don't know it yet.

I look at the situation and remove "what I want to happen" and ask myself objectively "what is going to happen?" I don't believe this mass of fraud is going to have a long term effect on third party grading. I know that's not what people want to hear and that's not what I want to happen but if I'm honest with myself and look at how collectors behave there's no other conclusion I can come to. This doesn't mean I'm letting anyone off the hook. This doesn't mean any of us should stop pursuing the truth. This doesn't mean we should continue to use nefarious agents or stop outing them publicly. We should all remain vigilant in all of those areas. But I don't believe:

1. Third-party grading will ever go away.

2. Collectors will ever stop using the registry.

3. There will ever cease to be premiums paid for grading rarities.

I don't believe PSA (or any TPGer) is the biggest bad actor in all of this. That is a brilliant strategy by a great lawyer and it's working. It's also quite convenient that SGC has pretty much avoided any heat from this, especially considering their background and connections. I believe PSA is BOTH victim and participant. They got hoodwinked by business clients that they believed were acting in good faith and were instead committing fraud against them. This absolutely does NOT excuse the fact that they apparently stopped measuring cards for years, be it due to time constraint or some other poor procedural decision. They have to own that and take the heat for that. MANY collectors have been robbed of their money and a legitimate card because of their mass incompetence. Do I believe they intended to do that? No. Therein lies the difference between the different levels of culpability that you and I believe they should be on the hook for. Who is right and who is wrong? I'd argue that it doesn't matter.

The larger, more important point, and the message that we should be shouting in unison no matter what transpires in the future, is DO YOUR WORK. Back when all we had were print price guides people used to say "they're just a guide!" Well, that's how we should look at third party grading going forward. Thanks for your opinion but I'm still going to scour this card for tell-tale signs and examine it for size. I'm still going to take into account provenance and look at its sale history. I'm still going to see if I can find a "before" picture. I'm still going to ask hobby friends what they think. I'm still going to do everything in my power to educate myself so that I'm not dependent on third-party grading. It should be a tool we have in our toolbox, not the finished birdhouse.

So, I guess, in a sense, you're right. I do somewhat support PSA because I do still submit cards to them. I do still buy PSA graded cards. I do still sell PSA graded cards. The same can be said about BGS and SGC, too. That's how the hobby as a collective wants to play the game. I'm not on a crusade. My crusade days are over. I pick and choose my battles over which ones I believe I can win and nothing any of us do is going to change those three things I listed up above. Some of you will look at that and say I gave up or that I'm not really "in it." I think I'm being realistic. I'm choosing not to tilt at windmills. Make change where change can be made.

No matter what happens with all this fraud, this is still going to be my hobby. While I will always care about it, I also want my hobby to be fun. If my hobby turns into me railing online everyday about negative shite then that's just a bunch of negative energy I don't need in my life. This is why I remove the emotion from this and look at it objectively. But I totally respect those of you that can still rail. We need guys like you. I guess just maybe a little less judgment towards those of us that aren't all-in.

Arthur

This seems disingenuous in that you don't state your tipping point. From what you indicate here, it seems you're happy to maintain the status quo regardless of the scope of the fraud.

I don't want to say that makes you complicit or ignorant in some way....but what you say does not seem consistent with someone who says he would always care about the hobby.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

This seems disingenuous in that you don't state your tipping point. From what you indicate here, it seems you're happy to maintain the status quo regardless of the scope of the fraud.

I don't want to say that makes you complicit or ignorant in some way....but what you say does not seem consistent with someone who says he would always care about the hobby.

My tipping point to do what? Never use PSA again?

Arthur

[ken161]

Not a lot taken off this card (excellent detective work), but it jumps from a 6 to an 8. Nice little 3K gain for the card doctor. Not to sound like a broken record, but you get the sense this could go on indefinitely. That there aren't enough hours in the day for the card doctors to trim all the cards queued up.

Although we know the card's been trimmed, I wonder if it would even measure short? Moot point, I guess.

Just another example of why I'll never buy another graded card (unless to immediately crack out and put in a raw set).

Never get cheated.

Originally Posted by corndog

This card is from the same PSA submission as the Cobb posted earlier and was purchased on the same date as the Cobb. Heritage would have the record of the purchaser's information and PWCC would have the same for the consigner. It is also possible it is a Moser/Huigens card.

PSA Cert #27228395

1954 Topps Al Kaline #201

Value gain of $2,951.00

This card was purchased by an unknown buyer from Heritage Auctions as a SGC 6 for $657.00 on November 19, 2016.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/b...1/67475/SGC/80

Same card was sold by Ebay seller PWCC as a PSA 8 for $3,608.00 on June 07, 2017.
PWCC link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1510171

Yellow circles are print, fiber, or chipping identifiers.
Red box identifies a trimmed top edge.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

My tipping point to do what? Never use PSA again?

Arthur

Following up on where you said: "I don't believe this mass of fraud is going to have a long term effect on third party grading." Then you go on to say what's not going to change. Sorry if this wasn't clear.

At what point would you think things would change? It kind of seems like there's no tipping point or threshold where you think things would change.

[Scottish Punk]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

Following up on where you said: "I don't believe this mass of fraud is going to have a long term effect on third party grading." Then you go on to say what's not going to change. Sorry if this wasn't clear.

At what point would you think things would change? It kind of seems like there's no tipping point or threshold where you think things would change.

I am in agreement with HarryLime on this one. It is great that all this stuff is coming out and I hope it continues. I just don't think it will change the course of the hobby. PSA will still be king and command big prices, PWCC may get a short term slap, but will survive just fine. I also am not ready to state collusion. I am firmly in the in the incompetent camp. I feel like that these cards get passed through a single grader who is whipping through them at a feverish pace to keep the flow going.

I am open to a few big dogs that get "loose" grades, but I am not willing to say back door money is exchanged.

As far as tipping point, and I think HarryLime would agree, is that it would take a "smoking gun". A ex grader spilling the beans, a big dog submitter proving preferential treatment, PSA big wig making a statement under oath, etc. Until then it is still conjecture and conspiracies.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by Scottish Punk

I am in agreement with HarryLime on this one. It is great that all this stuff is coming out and I hope it continues. I just don't think it will change the course of the hobby. PSA will still be king and command big prices, PWCC may get a short term slap, but will survive just fine. I also am not ready to state collusion. I am firmly in the in the incompetent camp. I feel like that these cards get passed through a single grader who is whipping through them at a feverish pace to keep the flow going.

I am open to a few big dogs that get "loose" grades, but I am not willing to say back door money is exchanged.

As far as tipping point, and I think HarryLime would agree, is that it would take a "smoking gun". A ex grader spilling the beans, a big dog submitter proving preferential treatment, PSA big wig making a statement under oath, etc. Until then it is still conjecture and conspiracies.

You’re really claiming that grading companies can always catch alterations whenever they want to?

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

Following up on where you said: "I don't believe this mass of fraud is going to have a long term effect on third party grading." Then you go on to say what's not going to change. Sorry if this wasn't clear.

At what point would you think things would change? It kind of seems like there's no tipping point or threshold where you think things would change.

If I look at the hobby as a whole, I see an entire collective of people that WANT third party grading to work. Right or wrong, they love the liquidity it gives their cards, the measurability it gives their cards, the vindication it gives them, the categorization, the competition, the complete lack of justification they have to give. This group has been operating with a healthy amount of denial for the past decade, at least.

In the vintage/prewar environment, EVERYONE knew that trimmed/altered cards were getting past graders. You'd be a fool to think otherwise. But people thought it was on a much smaller scale than this has all shown. It was easy for people to say to themselves, "yeah, but it doesn't effect me," even if it did effect them. Seasoned collectors would openly admit that they "probably have an altered card or two in their collection." But if they couldn't find it, what were they going to do? It was considered the price of admission. You couldn't have all the benefits of grading without having a certain amount of screw ups. On the off-chance that you were able to catch one, you submitted it to PSA and their guarantee covered it. Everyone played under these rules and only a small handful of people knew how pervasive it really was.

Those people could tell you "hey, it's a lot worse than this. You have no idea how many trimmed cards are out there. There are large-scale dealers putting tons of bad material out into the hobby." But without proof, and without proof those people couldn't just name names, it stayed in that ethereal place in the back of everyone's mind. It wasn't concrete. You couldn't shove it anyone face. This was part of the denial that everyone was operating under.

They weren't in denial simply because they hadn't been shown the facts. They were in denial because the hobby was so much better and so much more enjoyable when third party grading worked. So what has changed? We've seen hundreds, if not thousands of cards get outed plain as day. We've seen lists of many, many thousands of other cards that are, at best, highly suspect. The FBI has gotten involved. It's been written about in many major mainstream news outlets. Whoever was going to find out about it probably has. Are TPGing submissions down? Are TPGed prices down? Barely a blip.

Can we fault the lack of evidence? Hell no! BODA has absolutely crushed it. I'm continuously in awe of their investigative skills and for the most part they've done all of this without a sliver of judgment. They show up, drop damning evidence, and leave it for the shock and admonition to rightfully follow. And they're not close to be done. And I'm not just talking about PSA/PWCC. So what, then, is the problem?

The problem is that people compartmentalize. In the history of people, people have never given up something they love because someone told them "some of that is completely toxic." There WILL be a list. That list will consist of what has been outed here and the linked submissions. Anything that doesn't show up on that list will be 100% denial food. I'm not saying that's right, I'm just saying that's what's going to happen.

So what changes that? What is the tipping point? Obviously, on a long enough timeline, anything can happen. But if we're talking about the near future? There is no tipping point. A smoking gun? Even in that instance, we'll see what we see from every other corporation caught in a scandal -- heads roll, new leadership is implemented, and a reason for denial is put back in place. Business 101. That's all that people want -- an excuse for them to be in denial. That's how much most of the hobby loves third-party grading. Third-party grading will never go away and in order for PSA/SGC/BGS to be torn down you need replacements.

This is an extremely difficult, if not borderline impossible, market to get into. You need to be able to lose millions your first 5 years, at least. There's all sorts of "off" grading companies out there right now. Who here is buying them or putting any stock in their opinion? No one. We immediately assume they're a joke. How are you going to tackle PSA and their registry when SGC can barely hang on? They survive because they have a niche that they've carved out over many years. But they're at their ceiling. They can't have a registry. They're sorely inept. We're still waiting on their grand magnificence that they announced would be "coming soon" at the 2018 National. Beckett? I think we all know Beckett has their own grading frauds to work through right now.

I'm not saying all of this because it's what I want. I'm saying it because it's the hard truth and we need to keep it in mind while tackling the fraud that's going on right now. If you're operating under the premise that this is going to lead to PSA going out of business or even PSA losing their hold on the #1 spot, you're only going to be further disappointed and angered and life's too short to have all of that injected into your life over something like this.

I believe we should focus less on a tipping point and more on forcing their hand to improve the grading process and transparency. They're not going to say boo as long as their legal battles with PWCC are ongoing so let's not waste our breath on that. But once the FBI concludes and the dust settles, we should be able to put forward a concrete plan of action.

I know I've noticed in a few posts a hint of frustration from BODA. I can't even fathom what they're feeling after putting in countless hours toward this and not seeing major results yet. But I know for a fact that the people I've notified have gotten refunded so you guys are saving collectors thousands and thousands of dollars and getting bad cards out of their collection. It may not seem like much but that's a huge service that definitely don't get thanked for enough due to desired anonymity on the victims' part. So let me be the one to thank you. You guys ARE making a difference, even if you don't see it materially. Every victim I've spoken to has been nothing but grateful. That's all of YOUR good work. I'm simply the messenger and I make sure they know that.

Well, congrats to anyone that made it this far. Apologies for the bloviating. A bit like lighting a cigarette with a SCUD missile. I know a lot of this is going to met with dissent. I hope that most of you can see that this is not what I'm endorsing or condoning, just what I'm afraid we're staring down the barrel of. I would love to hear about other theories though. I certainly don't think I have a monopoly on the truth.

Arthur

[corndog]

*** I realize that I had posted this in the wrong thread yesterday. OCSI/card-buyer is not involved with these cards. PWCC was once again the vehicle used to anonymously unload all of these trimmed cards.

It took me a while to figure this one out (I think). I came across this string of vintage graded PSA 10s several weeks ago and couldn't pin down who submitted them. I have typically seen the usual masked VCP ID of b***y when I find the before purchases, but it wasn't the case this time. The submission numbers in the cards that I am about to post begin with 27755431 and end with 27751452 and total 21 cards. There are three different initial VCP purchase IDs involved that include an unknown Ebay ID with the masked Ebay ID of 9***9 and VCP masked ID of e***c, and an unknown Ebay ID with a masked Ebay ID of p***e and a matched VCP masked ID of p***e and a VCP masked ID of t***9 . While I cannot confirm a link between the three, they do seem to be from the same submission and all of the after sales were through PWCC with many being sold on the same date.

The majority of the posted card images have poor first sale scans or only a front scan that I could not 100% confirm a match. I posted the first scans that I am confident are a match.

In a sequentially numbered stretch of 21 PSA certs, there are 13 vintage PSA 10s - most trimmed and the others with no prior sale found. In that 21 card range there were 10 consecutive 10s given by PSA's experts. I believe the odds of that occurring with 50+ year old trimmed cards is astronomical without insider assistance from within PSA.

Any help in identifying these three masked VCP ID's would be greatly appreciated.

The cards are as follows:

#27755431 - PSA 10 - 1960 Parkhurst Jack McIntyre #24
Could not find a prior sale. Sold by PWCC on 11/27/17 for $2,024.00.



#27755432 - PSA 9 - 1960 Parkhurst Barry Cullen #32
Could not find a prior sale. Sold by PWCC on 10/26/17 for $88.66.

#27755433 - PSA 9 - 1960 Parkhurst Henri Richard #47
Purchased by e***c on 6/12/17 as a PSA 8 for $250.00.
Sold by PWCC on 10/26/17 for $379.00. Only a front scan provided. Trimmed on right edge.
PSA Set Registry: George's Gems



#27755434 - PSA 9 - 1961 Topps Murray Balfour #33
No sale record in VCP.

#27755435 - PSA 8 - 1961 Topps Doug Harvey #45
Could not find a prior sale. Sold by PWCC on 10/26/17 for $59.00.

#27755436 - PSA 9 - 1962 Parkhurst Jean Beliveau #39
Purchased by e***c on 12/01/16 as a PSA 8 for $110.95.
No sale record on VCP.

#27755437 - PSA 10 - 1963 Parkhurst Dick Duff #4
Purchased by e***c on 03/27/17 as a PSA 8 for $36.00.
Sold by PWCC on 11/27/17 for $561.00.
Poor first scan. Borders and mis-registered colors match (not 100% though). Trimmed right edge.
PSA Set Registry: George's Gems



#27755438 - PSA 10 - 1963 Parkhurst Ed Litzenberger #6
Purchased by e***c on 03/27/17 as a PSA 8 for $30.00.
Sold by PWCC on 11/27/17 for $235.50.
Poor first scan. Borders, smudges, and mis-registered colors match (not 100% though). Trimmed left and bottom edges.
PSA Set Registry: private



#27755439 - PSA 10 - 1963 Parkhurst Bob Nevin #10
Purchased by e***c on 03/27/17 as a PSA 8 for $36.00.
Sold by PWCC on 11/27/17 for $787.00.
Poor first scan. Borders, smudge, and mis-registered colors match (not 100% though). Trimmed right edge.
PSA Set Registry: George's Gems



#27755440 - PSA 10 - 1963 Parkhurst Bob Pulford #12
Purchased by e***c on 05/23/17 as a PSA 8 for $30.00.
Sold by PWCC on 11/27/17 for $257.00.
Poor first scan. Borders, smudge, and mis-registered colors match (not 100% though). Trimmed right edge.
PSA Set Registry: Martin the Erudicious Hockey Antiquarian



#27755441 - PSA 10 - 1963 Parkhurst Pete Goegan #43
Purchased by e***c on 05/23/17 as a PSA 8 for $30.00.
Sold by PWCC on 11/27/17 for $699.00.
Poor first scan. Borders, smudge, print spots match (not 100% though). Trimmed left and right edges.
PSA Set Registry: George's Gems



#27755442 - PSA 10 - 1963 Parkhurst Billy McNeill #56
Purchased by e***c on 05/28/17 as a PSA 8 for $24.99.
Sold by PWCC on 11/27/17 for $678.00.
Poor first scan. Borders, smudge, print spots match (not 100% though). No conclusive evidence of trimming.
PSA Set Registry: private



#27755443 - PSA 10 - 1963 Parkhurst Kent Douglas #67
Could not locate a prior sale.
Sold by PWCC on 11/27/17 for $777.00.
PSA Set Registry: rjmjr



#27755444 - PSA 10 - 1963 Parkhurst Bob Pulford #72
Purchased by e***c on 03/27/17 as a PSA 8 for $25.00.
Sold by PWCC on 11/27/17 for $326.00.
Poor first scan. Borders, smudge, print spots match (not 100% though).
Trimmed left and right edges.
PSA Set Registry: I've clearly gone INSANE!



#27755445 - PSA 10 - 1963 Parkhurst Ron Stewart #74
Purchased by e***c on 03/20/17 as a PSA 8 for $38.00.
Sold by PWCC on 11/27/17 for $1,236.00.
Poor first scan. Borders, smudge, print spots match (not 100% though).
Trimmed bottom edge.
PSA Set Registry: George's Gems



#27755446 - PSA 10 - 1963 Parkhurst Ralph Backstrom #83
Purchased by p***e on 03/20/17 as a PSA 8 for $38.00.
Sold by PWCC on 11/27/17 for $372.00.
Borders, smudge, print spots match.
Trimmed left edge.
PSA Set Registry: George's Gems





#27755447 - PSA 9 - 1963 Parkhurst Jean Beliveau #89
No sale found.
PSA Set Registry: none

#27755448 - PSA 9 - 1963 Parkhurst Terry Harper #91
Purchased by p***e on 03/20/17 as a PSA 8 for $43.99.
Sold by PWCC on 10/26/17 for $72.00.
Good front and back scans to verify a match - only posted the front scan since there is enough to confirm a match. Borders, smudge, print spots match.
Trimmed left and top edges.
PSA Set Registry: none



#27755449 - PSA 10 - 1963 Parkhurst Gump Worsley #98
No prior graded sale found.
Sold by PWCC on 11/27/17 for $932.79.
PSA Set Registry: none



#27755450 - PSA 9 - 1965 Topps Gerry Cheevers #31
Purchased by t***9 on 06/20/17 as a PSA 8 for $431.00.
Sold by PWCC on 11/30/17 for $1,525.51.
Borders, smudge, print spots match.
Trimmed left edge.
PSA Set Registry: none





#27755451 - PSA 10 - 1965 Topps Yvan Cournoyer #76
No prior graded sale found.
No record of sale as a PSA 10 (see next line)
PSA Set Registry: PRIVATE

#27755452 - PSA 8 - 1971 O-Pee-Chee Ken Dryden #45
Purchased by e***c on 06/05/17 for $699.99 as a PSA 8.
Regraded a PSA 8 and sold by PWCC on 10/26/17 for $592.00.
Took a loss and there was no evidence of trimming.
PSA Set Registry: none

[Scottish Punk]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

You’re really claiming that grading companies can always catch alterations whenever they want to?

That is not what I said at all. Strange that you would conclude that. PSA's current process is not inducive to catching many of the alterations. When graders (sometimes junior I am sure) are looking at cards for what 20-30 seconds, they are not going to catch a lot. It doesn't seem they are taking anytime to measure, blacklight, etc. the cards to catch alterations. They certainly "could" be doing more. That would increase costs and increase backlog. When PSA can't even keep up with orders as is even after increasing costs, why would they do anything to make it worse? PSA will only do these things when they start to feel pain with less submissions coming in. I just don't see much changing unless there was some big boycott of sending cards to PSA and buying graded PSA cards.

[corndog]

Last night an anonymous tip supplied the following information regarding the masked VCP id of t***9.
He reminded me that 312 had previously outed Will Jaimet as having that masked id under a previous Ebay id of qut9.
Will Jaimet is involved in the long hockey card post above.

PSA Cert #28728153

1969 Topps Mickey Mantle #500 (white letters)

Value gain of $18,386.40

This cert is currently in a user's private set registry inventory.

This card was purchased by Ebay ID qut9 (Will Jaimet) from Ebay seller jpcards as a PSA 7 for $4,500.00 on September 06, 2016.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/b...w/149021/PSA/7



Same card was sold by Mile High Auctions as a PSA 8 for $22,886.40 on June 21, 2018.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/b...w/149021/PSA/8

Yellow circles are print, fiber, or chipping identifiers.
Red box identifies trimmed top edge.