Evan Mathis Trimming Anything and Everything to Sell via Probstein, PWCC, & COMC

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by WhiteSoxJosh

Interesting thread. Thank you for all the work you do in uncovering this stuff.
As a criminal defense attorney, here's my take on trimming.
As a matter of law, I see prosecutors having a hard time charging a card doctor with mail fraud. I use mail fraud because I will assume this will be in federal court, and if the cards are sent to PSA after trimming, that's where I get mail fraud from.
Anyways, there has to be a material misrepresentation. Is trimming a card in that definition? Maybe. Maybe not. The card doctor will say the card was altered to get a better grade. That is not technically against the law. It is not, say, like a mortgage fraud case where you misstate your income to get a loan you wouldn't otherwise qualify for.
Then you have the extra layer of a third party affirming that the previously lower graded card is now in a higher holder.
I see a jury having a hard time convicting based on those facts.

Make no mistake, I think trimming and altering to get bumps is terrible for the hobby. It's totally unethical. Just is it illegal?
Remember, Mastro got indicted for mail fraud based on false representations on the Reds ball and Elvis hair in the catalog. Not for the Wagner.
As an attorney, this is a fascinating issue.

I am not a lawyer but the grading companies were created to catch alterations and while they do not seem to be doing a great job of it, as a whole, they still have grounds to reject cards for alterations. Further, at least in PSA's case, they have terms on the submission forms that customers agree to not knowingly submit altered cards. I would think a failure to disclose a known alteration that was done to enhance a card would be deemed fraud, would it not?

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

I am not a lawyer but the grading companies were created to catch alterations and while they do not seem to be doing a great job of it, as a whole, they still have grounds to reject cards for alterations. Further, at least in PSA's case, they have terms on the submission forms that customers agree to not knowingly submit altered cards. I would think a failure to disclose a known alteration that was done to enhance a card would be deemed fraud, would it not?

It's only a civil cause for action I assume. IANAL.

[cardology]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

no time for that. First, we're going to have an NHL '95 marathon on Sega Genesis, then we're totally going to eat ALL the ice cream we possibly can. Next, I'm going to steal my Mom's lighter and we're going to have a blue dart competition. Then we'll probably talk about which girls in school we like and, as usual, Evan will get scared and his Mom will have to come pick him up. It's gonna be wicked fun!



Arthur

Did you really have to out me for missing my mom? Fits your personality perfectly. All you ever want to do is fight on NHL 95 instead of playing actual hockey. Anyways, joke’s on you. I neglected to disclose to you that the 1988 Topps PSA 1 Bo Jackson that you purchased from me was actually folded twice by 8 year old me who then put it in my baby book for safekeeping. Years later, I UNFOLDED the card before having it graded.

[pip]

Originally Posted by WhiteSoxJosh

Interesting thread. Thank you for all the work you do in uncovering this stuff.
As a criminal defense attorney, here's my take on trimming.
As a matter of law, I see prosecutors having a hard time charging a card doctor with mail fraud. I use mail fraud because I will assume this will be in federal court, and if the cards are sent to PSA after trimming, that's where I get mail fraud from.
Anyways, there has to be a material misrepresentation. Is trimming a card in that definition? Maybe. Maybe not. The card doctor will say the card was altered to get a better grade. That is not technically against the law. It is not, say, like a mortgage fraud case where you misstate your income to get a loan you wouldn't otherwise qualify for.
Then you have the extra layer of a third party affirming that the previously lower graded card is now in a higher holder.
I see a jury having a hard time convicting based on those facts.

Make no mistake, I think trimming and altering to get bumps is terrible for the hobby. It's totally unethical. Just is it illegal?
Remember, Mastro got indicted for mail fraud based on false representations on the Reds ball and Elvis hair in the catalog. Not for the Wagner.
As an attorney, this is a fascinating issue.

Actually, as was correctly pointed out to me in a different thread by another of our resident attorneys, both Mastro admitting to trimming the T206 Wagner and Doug Allen admitting to altering the T206 Plank, were integral parts of their indictments.

[cardology]

Y’all just reminded me I have these laying around. If anyone wants to trim them for me I’ll pay you. PM me.

[WhacksPacks]

goodness ..this thread

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by cardology

Y’all just reminded me I have these laying around. If anyone wants to trim them for me I’ll pay you. PM me.

I'd never heard of 1970 MLB Photostamps before going through your PSA submissions.

[CleCardsPDX]

Originally Posted by cardology

Y’all just reminded me I have these laying around. If anyone wants to trim them for me I’ll pay you. PM me.

The President Trump defense, don't comment on the accusations backed by fact, just deflect and mock till hopefully, it all goes away.

[cardology]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

I'd never heard of 1970 MLB Photostamps before going through your PSA submissions.

You want some? I’ll send you a bunch you can keep. Send me your address. I’ll include some cookies as well. Just don’t buy your paper trimmer with your eBay account.

[WhiteSoxJosh]

Originally Posted by pip

Actually, as was correctly pointed out to me in a different thread by another of our resident attorneys, both Mastro admitting to trimming the T206 Wagner and Doug Allen admitting to altering the T206 Plank, were integral parts of their indictments.

They were not charged in any substantive counts with altering. It was included in the plea agreement as relative conduct, which Mastro and Allen did in fact admit to. but I respectfully disagree that it was an integral part of the indictment, as a matter of law.
I have both the indictment and plea, so I will go back and check them out just to make sure.
EDITED TO AD: P. 13-14 indictment talks about the wagner. They listed as selling most expensive card in world, but neglected to say that mastro altered the card by trimming sides. So yes, it's relevant to Count 1. thank you for bringing that up.

As for the PSA disclaimer, this would only be a civil fraud claim for damages. no criminal action based on that. The only caveat is if PSA agreed to put through cards they knew were altered, in exchange for share of profits. You might have a case for criminal conspiracy. but I think that would be extremely hard to even get an indictment on without some sort of smoking gun.

[gmoney328]

Originally Posted by cardology

Did you really have to out me for missing my mom? Fits your personality perfectly. All you ever want to do is fight on NHL 95 instead of playing actual hockey. Anyways, joke’s on you. I neglected to disclose to you that the 1988 Topps PSA 1 Bo Jackson that you purchased from me was actually folded twice by 8 year old me who then put it in my baby book for safekeeping. Years later, I UNFOLDED the card before having it graded.

Let's play devil's advocate here for a minute and assume you or your associates DID NOT trim the cards shown in the original post. How is it possible to refute the evidence shown in that same post, which show differences in the cards while in your possession?

All jokes and insults aside. I would just like to see a good explanation. Also, I am almost 50 years old, and outside of making Christmas paper chain links in 3rd grade, I have never even come remotely close to needing a paper trimmer as an adult.

All due respect to you and your NFL prowess, but this doesn't look good....

[scottagibson]

Originally Posted by WhiteSoxJosh

Interesting thread. Thank you for all the work you do in uncovering this stuff.
As a criminal defense attorney, here's my take on trimming.
As a matter of law, I see prosecutors having a hard time charging a card doctor with mail fraud. I use mail fraud because I will assume this will be in federal court, and if the cards are sent to PSA after trimming, that's where I get mail fraud from.
Anyways, there has to be a material misrepresentation. Is trimming a card in that definition? Maybe. Maybe not. The card doctor will say the card was altered to get a better grade. That is not technically against the law. It is not, say, like a mortgage fraud case where you misstate your income to get a loan you wouldn't otherwise qualify for.
Then you have the extra layer of a third party affirming that the previously lower graded card is now in a higher holder.
I see a jury having a hard time convicting based on those facts.

Make no mistake, I think trimming and altering to get bumps is terrible for the hobby. It's totally unethical. Just is it illegal?
Remember, Mastro got indicted for mail fraud based on false representations on the Reds ball and Elvis hair in the catalog. Not for the Wagner.
As an attorney, this is a fascinating issue.

Finally, someone else who sees this thing the way I am seeing it.

I do apologize for making light of the scandal in past posts.

[BLongley]

http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...51&postcount=1

[gmoney328]

Originally Posted by scottagibson

Finally, someone else who sees this thing the way I am seeing it.

I do apologize for making light of the scandal in past posts.

I have the same opinion. It is going to be extremely unlikely anyone gets in REAL trouble for any of this. It's just a major black mark for the hobby itself, and it seems to be gaining momentum.

Very unfortunate.

[pip]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

I'd never heard of 1970 MLB Photostamps before going through your PSA submissions.

Well, he'll trim a low grade 1969 Reggie Jackson, why not these?

[WhiteSoxJosh]

Originally Posted by gmoney328

I have the same opinion. It is going to be extremely unlikely anyone gets in REAL trouble for any of this. It's just a major black mark for the hobby itself, and it seems to be gaining momentum.

Very unfortunate.

Dont get me wrong, I think this Mathis guy is a scumbag, as are the other trimmers. It's terribly disappointing because I have zero confidence in buying any graded card now because of these people.
If anyone is going down, I think it will be PWCC for shilling. They obviously are cooperating and any charge will include a plea of guilty on the same day they are arraigned. They are in good hands, Lichtman is an excellent attorney.

[cardology]

Originally Posted by gmoney328

Let's play devil's advocate here for a minute and assume you or your associates DID NOT trim the cards shown in the original post. How is it possible to refute the evidence shown in that same post, which show differences in the cards while in your possession?



All jokes and insults aside. I would just like to see a good explanation. Also, I am almost 50 years old, and outside of making Christmas paper chain links in 3rd grade, I have never even come remotely close to needing a paper trimmer as an adult.



All due respect to you and your NFL prowess, but this doesn't look good....

Good questions, and I see where you’re coming from. But I think it’s best that the OP remains intact in all its glory. I really don’t feel the need to prove anything to anyone. My name was brought up, I had a little extra free time (not as much as 312) so I decided to jump in and have some fun.

You can still make paper chain links if you want, I won’t judge you.

[Screamer]

This disgusts me

[rman112]

Originally Posted by cardology

Good questions, and I see where you’re coming from. But I think it’s best that the OP remains intact in all its glory. I really don’t feel the need to prove anything to anyone. My name was brought up, I had a little extra free time (not as much as 312) so I decided to jump in and have some fun.

You can still make paper chain links if you want, I won’t judge you.

Ah yes, the "invincibility" defense.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

312 does great work (he has said on Blowout that he spends 40 hours a week doing this), but most certainly has a short fuse if someone does not agree with him. No denying that

It can be denied. In most cases he’s asking detractors to provide proof in a manner he has.

There’s nothing wrong or unfair with that.

[pip]

Originally Posted by WhiteSoxJosh

They were not charged in any substantive counts with altering. It was included in the plea agreement as relative conduct, which Mastro and Allen did in fact admit to. but I respectfully disagree that it was an integral part of the indictment, as a matter of law.
I have both the indictment and plea, so I will go back and check them out just to make sure.
EDITED TO AD: P. 13-14 indictment talks about the wagner. They listed as selling most expensive card in world, but neglected to say that mastro altered the card by trimming sides. So yes, it's relevant to Count 1. thank you for bringing that up.

You're welcome. It's good to put that misunderstanding to bed. Selling altered sports cards without disclosure IS a crime.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by WhiteSoxJosh

Dont get me wrong, I think this Mathis guy is a scumbag, as are the other trimmers. It's terribly disappointing because I have zero confidence in buying any graded card now because of these people.
If anyone is going down, I think it will be PWCC for shilling. They obviously are cooperating and any charge will include a plea of guilty on the same day they are arraigned. They are in good hands, Lichtman is an excellent attorney.

This was the best article I've read on the subject of legal ramifications for all of this:
https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...icult-process/

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by pip

You're welcome. It's good to put that misunderstanding to bed. Selling altered sports cards without disclosure IS a crime.

Correct. If done so knowingly. Mail and or wire fraud. 18 U.S.C. sections 1341 and 1343.

[NYRE2PECT]

Can't make this $hit up.

[pip]

Originally Posted by cardology

Good questions, and I see where you’re coming from. But I think it’s best that the OP remains intact in all its glory. I really don’t feel the need to prove anything to anyone. My name was brought up, I had a little extra free time (not as much as 312) so I decided to jump in and have some fun.

You can still make paper chain links if you want, I won’t judge you.

Evan,

Instead of making light of everything and behaving like a 5-year old, do you care to comment on the serious allegations against you? Have you or have you not knowingly sold altered sports cards without disclosure?