Evan Mathis Trimming Anything and Everything to Sell via Probstein, PWCC, & COMC

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Rooftop

PSA is supposed to protect the consumer from purchasing doctored cards. At least that's what they are promoting. Is there any other reason to buy a PSA graded card?

Yes. To get an opinion on the grade from someone who isn't selling the card. If I buy a PSA 10, I'm getting a card that may not be perfect, but shouldn't have visible flaws. If I buy a raw card, I might get a piece of cardboard that looks like a dog licked it.

This won't move forward if as a group we continue to make ridiculous statements and demands.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by Rooftop

Direct from PSA:

PSA authenticates both sports and non-sports trading cards across all eras.

A series of PSA graders review your cards for authenticity. If genuine, PSA looks for evidence of doctoring, such as re-coloring or trimming.

If your cards pass these two steps, PSA grades the condition of each card on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being best.

After grading, PSA holders each card in its own tamper-evident case. A label within the case displays the card's pertinent information and unique certification number.

PSA is supposed to protect the consumer from purchasing doctored cards. At least that's what they are promoting. Is there any other reason to buy a PSA graded card?

This is just a general question for the board and I'm curious where people land on this.

Is it reasonable to expect 100% accuracy from PSA?

Arthur

[NYRE2PECT]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Just curious and honest question: is that how you view other types of crime? The market is to blame equally?

Arthur

No, this is a different animal for a lot of reasons.

What other crimes have the blessing/negligence/blind-eye/collusion of what is supposed to be the enforcer of the law (PSA)?

It's not independent, it's not third-party, and it is apparently very biased, but money talks...

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

I completely understand the anger and frustration directed at PSA. It's obvious they haven't been using the most basic tools available to them to grade very high-dollar cards that would require them the most and they haven't been doing this for years.

The concept that PSA is public enemy #1 over the individuals that took a proactive effort to defraud people simply blows my mind. It's so foreign to me that it's not even something I would consider worth debating. I guess I just have to say "agree to disagree" and move on. Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion.

Arthur

The debate of who's worse; the quacks altering cards or their accomplices, labeling those items as good and clean; doesn't matter.
Both parties are equally responsibly, as the defrauding doesn't occur, without the partnership.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by NYRE2PECT

No, this is a different animal for a lot of reasons.

What other crimes have the blessing/negligence/blind-eye/collusion of what is supposed to be the enforcer of the law (PSA)?

It's not independent, it's not third-party, and it is apparently very biased, but money talks...

But PSA isn't the enforcer of the law, they're an authenticator. Authenticators are used with just about every item that can be transacted for money -- cars, homes, clothing, art, collectibles -- anything with a secondary market.

Arthur

[IgnatiusJReilly]

Damn that Snider trim pisses me off. Firstly, I love 1956 Topps. Secondly, that was a really nice card he desecrated. What kind of jackass looks at the original and thinks “yeah I can cut that up for a grade bump”? The confidence of these buttwipes is alarming. Thirdly, it’s not even a high profile card compared to many others in the set.

The greed behind this whole thing is just unbelievable. Sadly the amount of money in the hobby (which exists because people really like sports cards) turns collectors into greedy turds who don’t see a problem with permanently reducing the number of these wonderful (at least for vintage) pop art pieces.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rooftop]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Yes. To get an opinion on the grade from someone who isn't selling the card. If I buy a PSA 10, I'm getting a card that may not be perfect, but shouldn't have visible flaws. If I buy a raw card, I might get a piece of cardboard that looks like a dog licked it.

This won't move forward if as a group we continue to make ridiculous statements and demands.

That was 99.9% of the peoples view prior to BODA.

SO, you don't care if its been altered as long as it gets a certain # grade?

[Boo]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

This is just a general question for the board and I'm curious where people land on this.

Is it reasonable to expect 100% accuracy from PSA?

Arthur

Let me think, I'm paying an "expert" in the field to do something and get it right. Should I expect 100% accuracy? Should I expect 100% accuracy from someone filing my taxes?

[Rooftop]

If I personally alter 50 cards and send them to PSA hoping to get them passed and 50 come back as being altered. I'm probably not going to try it again.

At some point, someone from PSA, didn't do their job.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Rooftop

That was 99.9% of the peoples view prior to BODA.

SO, you don't care if its been altered as long as it gets a certain # grade?

Is that what I said?

Originally Posted by Boo

Let me think, I'm paying an "expert" in the field to do something and get it right. Should I expect 100% accuracy? Should I expect 100% accuracy from someone filing my taxes?

What's your job? Must be nice to be perfect.

[Boo]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Is that what I said?


What's your job? Must be nice to be perfect.

It is, thanks.

You're right, I shouldn't expect 100% accuracy in anything.

[NYRE2PECT]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Is that what I said?


What's your job? Must be nice to be perfect.

Perfection is not realistic, I would agree there, but how about just being excellent, or even great, or even good....not sure how much farther down I need to keep going to get PSA's current level of randomized grading.

[pip]

Originally Posted by IgnatiusJReilly

Damn that Snider trim pisses me off. Firstly, I love 1956 Topps. Secondly, that was a really nice card he desecrated. What kind of jackass looks at the original and thinks “yeah I can cut that up for a grade bump”? The confidence of these buttwipes is alarming. Thirdly, it’s not even a high profile card compared to many others in the set.

The greed behind this whole thing is just unbelievable. Sadly the amount of money in the hobby (which exists because people really like sports cards) turns collectors into greedy turds who don’t see a problem with permanently reducing the number of these wonderful (at least for vintage) pop art pieces.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My sentiments exactly, but with more colorful language.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by NYRE2PECT

Perfection is not realistic, I would agree there, but how about just being excellent, or even great, or even good....not sure how much farther down I need to keep going to get PSA's current level of randomized grading.

Yes, I agree. It is reasonable to demand better from them.

It is not reasonable to demand that the company cease operations if they can’t deliver perfection, and that the market pay more for raw cards than slabbed cards. You’re fighting a battle you will never win if those are your end goals.

[Rooftop]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Is that what I said?


What's your job? Must be nice to be perfect.

you said:


To get an opinion on the grade from someone who isn't selling the card. If I buy a PSA 10, I'm getting a card that may not be perfect, but shouldn't have visible flaws. If I buy a raw card, I might get a piece of cardboard that looks like a dog licked it.


Sure would be nice to know if its been altered or not

[pip]

Originally Posted by NYRE2PECT

Perfection is not realistic, I would agree there, but how about just being excellent, or even great, or even good....not sure how much farther down I need to keep going to get PSA's current level of randomized grading.

For quite some time, PSA touted its grading as the "gold standard." I guess now it's merely an opinion among many (and not a very good or objective one at that). Doesn't exactly inspire confidence. Instead of setting market standards, TPGs now follow the dictates of the market. They have become purely reactive.

[unclemonkey]

PCGS has trained coin dealers and collectors to buy and sell the label. Most coins trade as widgits or commodities.

PSA/BGS is training the average card collector to eventually accept the alterations.

The few, the proud, and the informed (maybe 10%?) will bow out never to return.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Rooftop

you said:


To get an opinion on the grade from someone who isn't selling the card. If I buy a PSA 10, I'm getting a card that may not be perfect, but shouldn't have visible flaws. If I buy a raw card, I might get a piece of cardboard that looks like a dog licked it.


Sure would be nice to know if its been altered or not

My statement was made under the assumption that the card is not altered. Everyone should know my stance on this issue by now.

Do your due diligence.
Don’t buy from the known trimmers or consigners the trimmers use.
Don’t buy something that is too good to be true.
Don’t pay a premium for a slab that is more than you are comfortable paying.

This has been my approach for the last year. I am very happy with my collection . I am also very happy with the progress made on this issue. I would like to see more progress happen. But like I said, you must come to the table with realistic expectations.

[pip]

Originally Posted by unclemonkey

PCGS has trained coin dealers and collectors to buy and sell the label. Most coins trade as widgits or commodities.

PSA/BGS is training the average card collector to eventually accept the alterations.

The few, the proud, and the informed (maybe 10%?) will bow out never to return.

You're probably right about that. Their attitude and responses to the crisis thus far definitely point in that direction. Denial married with indignation. It's the opposite of the way a responsible and ethical business would operate.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Yes. To get an opinion on the grade from someone who isn't selling the card. If I buy a PSA 10, I'm getting a card that may not be perfect, but shouldn't have visible flaws. If I buy a raw card, I might get a piece of cardboard that looks like a dog licked it.



This won't move forward if as a group we continue to make ridiculous statements and demands.

The obvious point is there are licked cards in PSA 10 slabs anyway.

[Scottish Punk]

Originally Posted by unclemonkey

PCGS has trained coin dealers and collectors to buy and sell the label. Most coins trade as widgits or commodities.

PSA/BGS is training the average card collector to eventually accept the alterations.

The few, the proud, and the informed (maybe 10%?) will bow out never to return.

Agreed. Once a card is slabbed it becomes a commodity. I think once the verdict of the FBI is done and BODA tired of outing cards, things will mostly go back to what it was before. A lot of collectors will still collect labels and will be OK with it as long as they sell to the next guy. I really am rooting for a big market shift but I am not optimistic. PWCC will do some behind the scenes deal and stay in business, the TPGs will just keep on trucking along.

[unclemonkey]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

The obvious point is there are licked cards in PSA 10 slabs anyway.

You should know when you are being trolled. Not everything is literal.

[Rogue]

Do you think people are using this for purposes of tax evasion as well? Like how art appreciates so much over time the same will be with these cards?

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by unclemonkey

You should know when you are being trolled. Not everything is literal.

Sadly, I actually received a Lebron Optic Purple two months ago that I thought was licked by a dog. Turned out he thought his kids got to it. It was definitely licked by something.

Originally Posted by Rogue

Do you think people are using this for purposes of tax evasion as well? Like how art appreciates so much over time the same will be with these cards?

Without a doubt in my mind there is money laundering and tax evasion involved in all of this as well.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by unclemonkey

PCGS has trained coin dealers and collectors to buy and sell the label. Most coins trade as widgits or commodities.

PSA/BGS is training the average card collector to eventually accept the alterations.

The few, the proud, and the informed (maybe 10%?) will bow out never to return.

A hobby where the third party reviewer becomes the first party (replacing the collectible) requires either regulation or new impartial third party reviewers.

Independent, third party “white hat” card doctors that ethically publish how effective grading companies detect their alterations are completely necessary.