Evan Mathis Trimming Anything and Everything to Sell via Probstein, PWCC, & COMC

[3124508 on COMC]

Crooked top edge trimmed onto this one. Potentially only half of the top edge has been trimmed.

Timeline:

-Card sold by PWCC as a PSA 8 (w/ PWCC Sticker) on 4/25/2017 to Evan Mathis (eBay ID: cardology).
-Card sold by acme.cards (Evan Mathis) as a trimmed PSA 8 on 8/20/17.
-Card resold by PWCC on 11/20/2019. It has been restickered.

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1472117
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...psa-1883057865
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/2122570

[Irish1351]

Looks like my kid cut the Sayers with a scissors. Just terrible and PSA still grades this nonsense?!?!?!?!?

[Buysellyell]

Any updates to this? Did Evan respond anymore publically?

[3124508 on COMC]

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...hof-1917932145
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ets-1961344605

[dustin42]

I took a break from this because it is so infuriating. This one is super ridiculous. Good luck to these fools.

[dustin42]

Originally Posted by pspa123

The Mastro affair took longer than that, and as you've pointed out, that was small in scope compared to this. So it would not surprise me at all if this took quite some time. Particularly where new alleged card doctors and potential evidence keep coming to light.

It is a lot easier to get indictments these days because of the mountain evidence from electronic communications the feds can get.

[JMANIA]

Originally Posted by Buysellyell

Any updates to this? Did Evan respond anymore publically?

No, I only found this article (other stuff noted on here):
https://www.parttimepoker.com/evan-m...imming-scandal

What's he going to say anyway? That he left a paper trial even after he was put on notice as these post date slabgate? That the researchers are hurting his post NFL career? That maybe he cannot walk around the National any more like he owns the place? That he could afford to buy collections, etc., because he could trim? From collector to investor to dealer to trimmer, with some of those all mixed in in time.

Only question really is at what point he trimmed himself or at one point he used to have his buddies do it for him or cut his sheets. This one stings for PSA and shows its ineptness more than anything. PSA was giving guy favorable grades for celebrity status in exchange for his endorsement of the company and buying some of its high end graded cards. If not caught here, this would continue indefinitely. These trim jobs are not of the high quality of the Kevin Burge or Robert Block jobs. Another person PSA wrote about and used to pump up the industry has been caught. All these catches mean that PSA has been the real fraud since Wagner graded card number one and continued. Really never seen a company been so inept and fraudulent yet been built up, just because it was the first and the great invention of the registry.

[Pink Pussycat]

Originally Posted by JMANIA

No, I only found this article (other stuff noted on here):
https://www.parttimepoker.com/evan-m...imming-scandal

What's he going to say anyway? That he left a paper trial even after he was put on notice as these post date slabgate? That the researchers are hurting his post NFL career? That maybe he cannot walk around the National any more like he owns the place? That he could afford to buy collections, etc., because he could trim? From collector to investor to dealer to trimmer, with some of those all mixed in in time.

Only question really is at what point he trimmed himself or at one point he used to have his buddies do it for him or cut his sheets. This one stings for PSA and shows its ineptness more than anything. PSA was giving guy favorable grades for celebrity status in exchange for his endorsement of the company and buying some of its high end graded cards. If not caught here, this would continue indefinitely. These trim jobs are not of the high quality of the Kevin Burge or Robert Block jobs. Another person PSA wrote about and used to pump up the industry has been caught. All these catches mean that PSA has been the real fraud since Wagner graded card number one and continued. Really never seen a company been so inept and fraudulent yet been built up, just because it was the first and the great invention of the registry.

This pretty much sums it up. People blinded by their own wishful thinking and greed. And PSA knew exactly how to play upon these people's weaknesses.

Thank goodness the vast corruption and criminal ties are finally being revealed to a bigger audience (credit to the incredible people here, and the internet). I just pray that PSA cannot squelch the facts this time, as they've successfully done in the past.

[Buysellyell]

Originally Posted by Pink Pussycat

This pretty much sums it up. People blinded by their own wishful thinking and greed. And PSA knew exactly how to play upon these people's weaknesses.

Thank goodness the vast corruption and criminal ties are finally being revealed to a bigger audience (credit to the incredible people here, and the internet). I just pray that PSA cannot squelch the facts this time, as they've successfully done in the past.

thank you all, well said

[HarryLime]

It's been a little while since a bunch of people here hated me so I'm overdue to make an uncomfortable post that isn't going to fit some people's narrative.

It's important to remember that we're (and by "we" I mean the royal we, as the Dude would say. I certainly haven't done jack squat compared to BODA) not doing a blind scientific experiment here. We started with the IDs of known card doctors and began outing their tainted cards. Those IDs, or people, had a very specific M.O. and as BODA dug deeper they were able to use those IDs to out other card doctors by cross-referencing what we knew about the first card doctors. It was an incrediblke piece of digital forensic investigation and the list of card doctors grew and grew.

All of these dbags used PSA for an array of reasons. I think the number one reason would be that PSA brings the most money on the secondary market. But they also had Brent, who had established a favorable working relationship with the company where he could communicate with the higher ups and provide fake backstories for the submissions and also get them rushed through as long as he was willing to pay the price.

I know this concept makes some here poo their roos but it's not abnormal. Anyone that commits to a certain amount of submissions, say X thousand a month, gets assigned a sales person. This is how business everywhere on the planet works. Larger customers get preferential treatment. If your sub is taking longer than expected, you have someone you can email and say "hey, can you see if you can get this moving?" and they do that, because you spend a lot of money with them.

I'm only speculating, but I imagine someone who was spending the amount of money that Brent was probably was able to call Joe and say "Joe, I've got 200 cards that I need back in a week. They just came in from a consignment from Wyoming of someone who passed away and they collected since they were a kid and blah blah blah" and I imagine that Joe would make sure that they got the sub back to Brent in a week and that Brent paid through the nose for it.

That puts undue pressure on graders and is a petri dish for mistakes. But Brent has been one of the best customers for a decade so Brent gets the benefit of the doubt? Like I said, I'm speculating. My point is, we've been looking at doctored cards in PSA slabs for what seems like forever now.

Is that the result of an examination of PSA cards? No. It's the result of an examination of card doctors that always chose to use PSA cards. So of course eventually it's going to look like everything PSA is bad, all we're seeing are cards that have been doctored by people that only use PSA. There was no other alternative. We weren't going to open this thread or another trimming thread to find a list of 1,000 PSA cards that are all good. That would be an impossibility based on chain of evidence we're starting with.

We're starting with BAD cards. We're starting with card doctors. We're starting with fraud. That's the jumping off point. And because of where this started WAY back when, we're starting with individuals who use PSA as part of THEIR fraud. This is like social conditioning -- we've been coming to these threads for months and months and only been seeing doctored cards in PSA slabs so eventually people are going to come to the conclusion that ALL cards in PSA slabs are doctored. That's psychology 101.

If the conclusion isn't that ALL cards in PSA slabs are bad, then it's certainly going to warp the perception of anyone trying to gauge the ratio. It's unavoidable. You can't watch something over and over for a prolonged period of time without it slipping into your subconscious on some level.

This isn't even about PSA vs. SGC vs. BGS. It's PSA vs. PSA, and they were doomed from the start. No one is doing actual blind testing to see how much quality they're producing, we're only being led to their mistakes and then focusing on those.

I know I'm going to be dismissed as another PSA ball washer or protecting my investment or whatever else is the current default deflection point. My goal with this post isn't to say "hey, we're being too mean on PSA" it's to say "you were going to end up hating PSA no matter what." We just keep seeing their eff ups over and over and over and it's both frustrating and infuriating. But don't let that cloud your vision as to who the real bad guys are.

PSA needs to take responsibility. PSA needs to make large scale changes. Other people need to go to jail.

Arthur

[itradeerrors]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

It's been a little while since a bunch of people here hated me so I'm overdue to make an uncomfortable post that isn't going to fit some people's narrative.

It's important to remember that we're (and by "we" I mean the royal we, as the Dude would say. I certainly haven't done jack squat compared to BODA) not doing a blind scientific experiment here. We started with the IDs of known card doctors and began outing their tainted cards. Those IDs, or people, had a very specific M.O. and as BODA dug deeper they were able to use those IDs to out other card doctors by cross-referencing what we knew about the first card doctors. It was an incrediblke piece of digital forensic investigation and the list of card doctors grew and grew.

All of these dbags used PSA for an array of reasons. I think the number one reason would be that PSA brings the most money on the secondary market. But they also had Brent, who had established a favorable working relationship with the company where he could communicate with the higher ups and provide fake backstories for the submissions and also get them rushed through as long as he was willing to pay the price.

I know this concept makes some here poo their roos but it's not abnormal. Anyone that commits to a certain amount of submissions, say X thousand a month, gets assigned a sales person. This is how business everywhere on the planet works. Larger customers get preferential treatment. If your sub is taking longer than expected, you have someone you can email and say "hey, can you see if you can get this moving?" and they do that, because you spend a lot of money with them.

I'm only speculating, but I imagine someone who was spending the amount of money that Brent was probably was able to call Joe and say "Joe, I've got 200 cards that I need back in a week. They just came in from a consignment from Wyoming of someone who passed away and they collected since they were a kid and blah blah blah" and I imagine that Joe would make sure that they got the sub back to Brent in a week and that Brent paid through the nose for it.

That puts undue pressure on graders and is a petri dish for mistakes. But Brent has been one of the best customers for a decade so Brent gets the benefit of the doubt? Like I said, I'm speculating. My point is, we've been looking at doctored cards in PSA slabs for what seems like forever now.

Is that the result of an examination of PSA cards? No. It's the result of an examination of card doctors that always chose to use PSA cards. So of course eventually it's going to look like everything PSA is bad, all we're seeing are cards that have been doctored by people that only use PSA. There was no other alternative. We weren't going to open this thread or another trimming thread to find a list of 1,000 PSA cards that are all good. That would be an impossibility based on chain of evidence we're starting with.

We're starting with BAD cards. We're starting with card doctors. We're starting with fraud. That's the jumping off point. And because of where this started WAY back when, we're starting with individuals who use PSA as part of THEIR fraud. This is like social conditioning -- we've been coming to these threads for months and months and only been seeing doctored cards in PSA slabs so eventually people are going to come to the conclusion that ALL cards in PSA slabs are doctored. That's psychology 101.

If the conclusion isn't that ALL cards in PSA slabs are bad, then it's certainly going to warp the perception of anyone trying to gauge the ratio. It's unavoidable. You can't watch something over and over for a prolonged period of time without it slipping into your subconscious on some level.

This isn't even about PSA vs. SGC vs. BGS. It's PSA vs. PSA, and they were doomed from the start. No one is doing actual blind testing to see how much quality they're producing, we're only being led to their mistakes and then focusing on those.

I know I'm going to be dismissed as another PSA ball washer or protecting my investment or whatever else is the current default deflection point. My goal with this post isn't to say "hey, we're being too mean on PSA" it's to say "you were going to end up hating PSA no matter what." We just keep seeing their eff ups over and over and over and it's both frustrating and infuriating. But don't let that cloud your vision as to who the real bad guys are.

PSA needs to take responsibility. PSA needs to make large scale changes. Other people need to go to jail.

Arthur

Try this.

This is a good test but the cards have to be sent in by someone that rarely submits cards so it is far.

Pick 10 random #s between 1 and 30. Then go to 4SCs ebay page and search for PSA 10s. Now list them from cheapest to most expensive. Now take those 10 random #s and buy the 10 cards in order on 4SCs ebay listings. Crack them out and send them in and see how many come back as PSA 10s.

My last sub with PSA was 10 cards. I got in n a group sub, every card came back as a PSA 8. That includes the ones that should have got a 10 and the one with a very noticeable crease. It was like they just looked at the pile and said "give them all 8s to save some time".

[80pc]

Originally Posted by itradeerrors

Try this.

This is a good test but the cards have to be sent in by someone that rarely submits cards so it is far.

Pick 10 random #s between 1 and 30. Then go to 4SCs ebay page and search for PSA 10s. Now list them from cheapest to most expensive. Now take those 10 random #s and buy the 10 cards in order on 4SCs ebay listings. Crack them out and send them in and see how many come back as PSA 10s.

My last sub with PSA was 10 cards. I got in n a group sub, every card came back as a PSA 8. That includes the ones that should have got a 10 and the one with a very noticeable crease. It was like they just looked at the pile and said "give them all 8s to save some time".

I've tried to follow this thread as much as I can but haven't read everything. Was 4SC named in here? I have never purchased from them but they always had PSA 10 of everything, even the tough issues. My senses were that something wasn't right and I could never pull the trigger with them.

[itradeerrors]

Originally Posted by 80pc

I've tried to follow this thread as much as I can but haven't read everything. Was 4SC named in here? I have never purchased from them but they always had PSA 10 of everything, even the tough issues. My senses were that something wasn't right and I could never pull the trigger with them.

NO, it is just a test to see if PSA is consistent.

[80pc]

Originally Posted by itradeerrors

NO, it is just a test to see if PSA is consistent.

Ah, gotcha.

[pspa123]

My guess is if Joe Average bought 100 random 4SC 10s, cracked and resubmitted, they would get no more than 40 10s, and maybe a lot less.

[Astros19]

The entire idea of resubmitting cards hoping for a better grade, be them altered or not, is enough to cause me concern.
That was way before any of the fraud proven here came to light.
Serious question, if the card was a PSA 8.5 Four months ago, why would it change into any other grade at any other time?
Granted I understand where a chrome card has finger prints that can be cleaned, or wax that can be easily removed, but for cards that are just resubmitted without any changes, why should it get a bump in grades?
I just don't understand the thinking with something so subjective garnering so much more money because one person's opinion of the condition can vary from another's by so much.
Other than dollars and egos, there's just no justifiable reason.
I suspected years ago that grading could be corrupted pretty easily and I feel as though my thoughts have been proven true.
As I've stated before, I'm sitting on a bunch of vintage that for years I've considered having graded, and I think it's to my advantage to continue to wait and see where all of these posts lead before I make a decision to grade or just sell raw.
It may take several more years, but I see a lot of changes in the future in how collectors view grading unless something drastic changes. We all know that the TPG's don't want to see any changes as their "house of cards" will collapse.
I can honestly see where in time having them raw may be to my advantage.

[Willikn]

Originally Posted by itradeerrors

Try this.

go to 4SCs ebay page and search for PSA 10s.

Any particular reason you picked them? I ask because I keep waiting for them to get outed. I've been buying from them for quite some time and have a pit in my stomach about what may yet be revealed.

A number of things made me comfortable with them. They have PSA 7 cards when PSA 7 is a nice copy of the card. Lots of things that would entice a trimmer but they aren't trimmed (hope). No one of one "10s". I've bought a number of Jordan 57s and they have all checked out over the years. No shill bids. Accurate pricing. They don't move their prices to match ridiculous shilled results that PWCC reflects.

Now I feel I can't trust anyone. I haven't bought from them in months. I'm seeing things that probably aren't there. Sucks.

I would like to say that I've not bought a 10 from 4SC and been disappointed with the card. Would I get a nine if I resubmitted? Maybe, but as long as I don't get "altered card", I'm happy. After all, I bought the card. Not the holder, right?

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

It's been a little while since a bunch of people here hated me so I'm overdue to make an uncomfortable post that isn't going to fit some people's narrative.

It's important to remember that we're (and by "we" I mean the royal we, as the Dude would say. I certainly haven't done jack squat compared to BODA) not doing a blind scientific experiment here. We started with the IDs of known card doctors and began outing their tainted cards. Those IDs, or people, had a very specific M.O. and as BODA dug deeper they were able to use those IDs to out other card doctors by cross-referencing what we knew about the first card doctors. It was an incrediblke piece of digital forensic investigation and the list of card doctors grew and grew.

All of these dbags used PSA for an array of reasons. I think the number one reason would be that PSA brings the most money on the secondary market. But they also had Brent, who had established a favorable working relationship with the company where he could communicate with the higher ups and provide fake backstories for the submissions and also get them rushed through as long as he was willing to pay the price.

I know this concept makes some here poo their roos but it's not abnormal. Anyone that commits to a certain amount of submissions, say X thousand a month, gets assigned a sales person. This is how business everywhere on the planet works. Larger customers get preferential treatment. If your sub is taking longer than expected, you have someone you can email and say "hey, can you see if you can get this moving?" and they do that, because you spend a lot of money with them.

I'm only speculating, but I imagine someone who was spending the amount of money that Brent was probably was able to call Joe and say "Joe, I've got 200 cards that I need back in a week. They just came in from a consignment from Wyoming of someone who passed away and they collected since they were a kid and blah blah blah" and I imagine that Joe would make sure that they got the sub back to Brent in a week and that Brent paid through the nose for it.

That puts undue pressure on graders and is a petri dish for mistakes. But Brent has been one of the best customers for a decade so Brent gets the benefit of the doubt? Like I said, I'm speculating. My point is, we've been looking at doctored cards in PSA slabs for what seems like forever now.

Is that the result of an examination of PSA cards? No. It's the result of an examination of card doctors that always chose to use PSA cards. So of course eventually it's going to look like everything PSA is bad, all we're seeing are cards that have been doctored by people that only use PSA. There was no other alternative. We weren't going to open this thread or another trimming thread to find a list of 1,000 PSA cards that are all good. That would be an impossibility based on chain of evidence we're starting with.

We're starting with BAD cards. We're starting with card doctors. We're starting with fraud. That's the jumping off point. And because of where this started WAY back when, we're starting with individuals who use PSA as part of THEIR fraud. This is like social conditioning -- we've been coming to these threads for months and months and only been seeing doctored cards in PSA slabs so eventually people are going to come to the conclusion that ALL cards in PSA slabs are doctored. That's psychology 101.

If the conclusion isn't that ALL cards in PSA slabs are bad, then it's certainly going to warp the perception of anyone trying to gauge the ratio. It's unavoidable. You can't watch something over and over for a prolonged period of time without it slipping into your subconscious on some level.

This isn't even about PSA vs. SGC vs. BGS. It's PSA vs. PSA, and they were doomed from the start. No one is doing actual blind testing to see how much quality they're producing, we're only being led to their mistakes and then focusing on those.

I know I'm going to be dismissed as another PSA ball washer or protecting my investment or whatever else is the current default deflection point. My goal with this post isn't to say "hey, we're being too mean on PSA" it's to say "you were going to end up hating PSA no matter what." We just keep seeing their eff ups over and over and over and it's both frustrating and infuriating. But don't let that cloud your vision as to who the real bad guys are.

PSA needs to take responsibility. PSA needs to make large scale changes. Other people need to go to jail.

Arthur

It’s just easier, and likely most accurate to say grading is broken perhaps beyond repair and has been that way for decades.

People profiting from that fraud-ridden system are not just card doctors but “regular people” who knowingly turn a blind eye whenever they use graded cards for financial gain in any transaction involving slabs on the secondary market.

Yes, as unpopular as it sounds, it can be said regular people are contributing to the fraud just by selling slabs, especially if the buyer is clueless about the extent of the ongoing fraud.

But given nobody wants to put regular people in jail, as you say, and to best protect consumers, the best way to proceed is to have registered white hat groups regularly demonstrate and publish how ineffective or effective grading really is by submitting altered (and non-altered) cards for grades.

Such white hats should be registered by the Commerce Department to bypass the grading company’s “convenient rules” that don’t allow for white hats to submit altered cards. These white hats should have at least semi-regular discussions with department contacts.

This “Consumer Reports” approach provides what the hobby needs most: an educated hobby that can make informed collecting and investing decisions. A URL to a central data repository that informs consumers should be placed on each and every slab.

It sounds as though someone pre-BODA did attempt to pull together a resource to help inform hobbyists. It would be great for the hobby to use and build upon what that person started.

[itradeerrors]

Originally Posted by Willikn

Any particular reason you picked them? I ask because I keep waiting for them to get outed. I've been buying from them for quite some time and have a pit in my stomach about what may yet be revealed.

A number of things made me comfortable with them. They have PSA 7 cards when PSA 7 is a nice copy of the card. Lots of things that would entice a trimmer but they aren't trimmed (hope). No one of one "10s". I've bought a number of Jordan 57s and they have all checked out over the years. No shill bids. Accurate pricing. They don't move their prices to match ridiculous shilled results that PWCC reflects.

Now I feel I can't trust anyone. I haven't bought from them in months. I'm seeing things that probably aren't there. Sucks.

2 main reasons.

1) They have a #@#@#@#@ ton of cheap PSA 10s that they submitted. That makes the test cheap and accurate.

2) They are a HUGE submitter and if anyone(not saying they do) would get "special" grades it would be them. So it also makes the test more interesting.

The cards need to be picked randomly so it is fair and they are not cherry picked to give a biased result.

[Willikn]

Originally Posted by itradeerrors

2 main reasons.

1) They have a #@#@#@#@ ton of cheap PSA 10s that they submitted. That makes the test cheap and accurate.

2) They are a HUGE submitter and if anyone(not saying they do) would get "special" grades it would be them. So it also makes the test more interesting.

The cards need to be picked randomly so it is fair and they are not cherry picked to give a biased result.

I don't believe your test is needed. I think we know they get the benefit of the doubt. Not to the degree that BGS does when handing out black labels, but yeah, the 9/10 will probably be a 10. I have always accepted that aspect of the hobby. What I don't see at 4SC is a bunch of BGS 10s or SGC 100s.

What I can't accept is altered cards. They get burned doing that and I may have to quit.

[80pc]

Originally Posted by Willikn

I don't believe your test is needed. I think we know they get the benefit of the doubt. Not to the degree that BGS does when handing out black labels, but yeah, the 9/10 will probably be a 10. I have always accepted that aspect of the hobby.

What I can't accept is altered cards. They get burned doing that and I may have to quit.

You're a better man than me. I want an even playing field regardless of my submission numbers. Graders should have no idea who a card is being graded for.

[Willikn]

Originally Posted by 80pc

You're a better man than me. I want an even playing field regardless of my submission numbers. Graders should have no idea who a card is being graded for.

I'm not better. Maybe dumber? Just lazy?

The reality for me is that I don't care. I feel like a card in a 10 (and in most cases a 9) slab is what I see in the image. I buy the card because I want the card and know there won't be a surprise hidden by the image.

Example. My favorite Jordan 57 is in a PSA 8 slab from 4SC. Very clear reasons for the 8. Corner weakness on all four. Right edge weakness too. Centering barely 9 quality. I love it because the surface is so crystal clear. Perfect register, no print marks of any kind, and even the Fleer logo on the back looks perfect. Stupid nuance that means a lot to me. Honestly, I may have graded the thing as a NM. The right edge is that bad. They got an eight. I don't care at all. Maybe I should but I don't.

[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

PSA needs to take responsibility. PSA needs to make large scale changes. Other people need to go to jail.

Arthur

Magical thinking that PSA is not using fraudsters as much as they use PSA.

Also, magical thinking that fraudster enablers (fraudsters themself) are going to clean up their act.

[pip]

It's a symbiotic relationship between card doctors and PSA. PSA needs their submissions and the card doctors need the red labels and slabs that give their customers (aka victims) a false sense of security. Watch the next earnings report for CU. I bet graded sports card submissions are way down. Not just because PSA has allegedly stopped accepting cards from PWCC but because of the chilling effect BODA has had on current and yet-to-be discovered card doctors.

Absent action by the feds, there's only one way to end systematic hobby corruption. Stop buying from every single card doctor and enabling auction service named by BODA. Without demand, the supply of altered cards will diminish.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by Bruins1993

Magical thinking that PSA is not using fraudsters as much as they use PSA.

Also, magical thinking that fraudster enablers (fraudsters themself) are going to clean up their act.

This has merit. There's certainly something to be said about the conflict of interest between high-dollar sales and PSA's own profits. I don't believe it's non-existent. I think it would be foolish to believe that PSA executives don't get excited every time they can make a claim like "Card X in PSA 10 sold for $1MM!"

Perhaps I'm naive. I won't rule that out and won't argue with anyone that wants to make that claim. I don't think that their drive for those headlines would cause them to do anything as stupid as interfere with grading. They don't need to. Whatever grades come out there's always going to be headlines because whatever the top grade is is always going to continue to break previous records. Plus, I just don't see it being possible without a bunch of people that aren't vested in the company becoming aware of it and eventually talking.

But hey, I'm the outside like everybody else. Who knows.

Arthur