Is Babe Ruth really the greatest baseball player ever?

[kevbojones]

Yes.

He still owns the WS record for ERA--0.87

94-46 Lifetime record with a 2.28 ERA as well

[SmokeyJ]

It's strange that baseball fans (as opposed to basketball, for instance) tend to discount the skills of more recent players as the "best" is often someone from long ago. Surely the skill of the average batter and pitcher are better in the modern era and, to add to that, there aren't large portions of players excluded from the pool in the modern era.

Who would do better?
Babe Ruth playing in 2019
Mike Trout playing in 1927

I'm not saying Trout is better than Ruth, btw. The best player ever could exist during any era. Just thinking of the difficulty of being an elite MLB player in the past 30 years is likely much higher than it was in years past.

[tlschwerz]

Babe Ruth had the greatest career in MLB history.

Mike Trout is the greatest player to ever play the game.

[thepointguard10]

Yes he is.

[Ray27Ray52]

Trout is amazing. Incredible. A future slam dunk HOF'er. But he hasn't even accomplished what several other players were able to do in just the recent past, let alone the entirety of baseball history. Pump the brakes a little bit Trouties.

For reference...

Albert Pujols
Alex Rodgriguez (pre roids of course)
Ken Griffey Jr.
Frank Thomas

I could go on.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by REGGIE206

My opinion:

1a) Babe Ruth: Dominant Offense & Dominant Pitcher
1b) Willie Mays: Greatest 5 Tool Player Ever

I agree with Bill James and have Honus Wagner #2 and Mays #3. Wagner was a gold glove level shortstop and the best hitter in the National League throughout his career. He also had the greatest single season ever in 1908.

[patchgenie]

yes. always some good comedy when trout pumpers show up.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by SmokeyJ

It's strange that baseball fans (as opposed to basketball, for instance) tend to discount the skills of more recent players as the "best" is often someone from long ago. Surely the skill of the average batter and pitcher are better in the modern era and, to add to that, there aren't large portions of players excluded from the pool in the modern era.

Who would do better?
Babe Ruth playing in 2019
Mike Trout playing in 1927

I'm not saying Trout is better than Ruth, btw. The best player ever could exist during any era. Just thinking of the difficulty of being an elite MLB player in the past 30 years is likely much higher than it was in years past.

Not really. Best Basketball Player Wilt Chamberlain retired 47 years ago. Best Football Player Jim Brown retired 55 years ago.

[Willikn]

Originally Posted by BlowoutBuzz

There isn't really an argument to be made here.

There is. The whites only thing. Babe did play against black players. Homered off of Satchel Paige in a barnstorm game.

I don't think this argument holds water.

Less teams so talent more condensed. Ted Williams, Stan Musial, and Bob Feller (as well as a ton of others) all played on both sides of that fence and their production was not changed. Unfair to say Babe's would have been. No one says that when extolling the virtues of Joe D or Gehrig. Just Ruth.

I'm a Bonds fan. I'm in the minority who doesn't care about juice use as I think everyone used and I think most still do. It isn't Bonds. His God Father before him. Not an insult. Just is.

[Willikn]

Originally Posted by rats60

Not really. Best Basketball Player Wilt Chamberlain retired 47 years ago. Best Football Player Jim Brown retired 55 years ago.

You can pick a center for that, but it needs to be Kareem.

Agree with the 2nd. Good call

[ScooterD]

Ruth suffers from the same problem as Chamberlain - they were SO much better than their contemporaries that people discount their numbers and overall “greatness” for lack of competition.

Ruth hit more HRs than whole teams. Chamberlain averaged over 50 PPG one season.

These are mind-boggling accomplishments that we have a hard time putting into context in retrospect, so many just say “they didn’t have any competition,” which is the easy way out. They outperformed everyone else - individually and collectively. Same could probably be said for Gretzky

[babybull]

Originally Posted by Ray27Ray52

I go out for a celebratory smoke every time the final vote is released for each years HOF class and Barry Bonds isn't on it. When thinking about the best players of all time I act like he doesn't even exist. Which is firmly where he belongs.

This right here!

[Middies31985]

You can't have this discussion without comparing the game of then to the game of today. I not trying to take anything away from the Babe's greatness, but I do think he is overrated. His "legend" grew throughout his years as a player and carried over into stories told and passed down as the "greatest ever" and much of society has just accepted this as fact.

You can't just simply look at advanced stats when it comes to Ruth because, as they say, it's like comparing apples to oranges.

1. Pitch Speeds. Yes you have your outliers like Johnson and Grove, but on average pitch speeds were down across the game. Along with pitch speeds, bullpens were not used in Ruth's era. Personally, I would rather hit against someone in my 4th at bat after they have thrown 112 pitches than some dude rolling out of the pen fresh with new "stuff".

2. Babe Ruth played in an era where some of the best players were not allowed to play the game. What is the point? There was far lesser talent on the field than what the world could provide at the time. The game has become global and the best players in the world are playing in Major League Baseball. At the turn of the century and before the color barrier was broken, that just simply wasn't the case. The game today is filled with more talent today than then. So saying the Babe's advanced stats outperformed Barry Bonds is ridiculous. Yes, I know Bonds was dirty, but I would argue Mike Trout is better than Babe Ruth ever was.

3. Today's ballparks are smaller so there are more homeruns, but there are far fewer doubles and triples because of the smaller gaps. Ruth played in an era with huge power alleys. Let's be honest, Babe Ruth having 136 career triples is a hilarious stat knowing the size of player he was with the speed he had, but because of his power the deep gaps allowed him to chug his slow moving butt to 3rd. Counter-argument... he hit over 700 HRs in these large parks. Yes, but any of these large gaps had hilariously short lines (258 in Polo Grounds). Ruth's home park was also an average park even by today's standards.

4. Athletes. The game has become dominated by better players, but also more athletic players. A faster, better defense mixed with smaller parks and defensive shifts has made hitting extremely difficult in today's game. Hence, the emphasis being placed on launch angle and HRs to hit it over the defense. We will never have another Tony Gwynn that hits over .330 every single year and flirts with .400 on occasion unless the game drastically changes. This makes Trout's accomplishments even more impressive in my mind. What he has done in this era is more impressive than what Ruth did in his.

I could go, but I have typed to much as it is and many probably aren't reading and don't agree. Yes Babe Ruth changed the trajectory of the game and was the first icon the game produced, but calling him the greatest baseball player of all-time, I cannot do. I don't think the Babe has as much success in today's game. However, I would argue that Ted Williams and Willie Mays would have been greats in any era.

This was fun. Argue away.

[Willikn]

Originally Posted by ScooterD

Ruth suffers from the same problem as Chamberlain - they were SO much better than their contemporaries that people discount their numbers and overall “greatness” for lack of competition.

Ruth hit more HRs than whole teams. Chamberlain averaged over 50 PPG one season.

Some of this is myth. Chamberlain averaged 50/25 in the same year O averaged a 3D. I think seven guys were over 35 pts per game that year. Career best for every star you can name. Was an anomaly. Teams averaged 130+ per game. Wilt's dominance ended the moment other great centers entered the league. Especially Kareem who was Wilt's superior in most every aspect of basketball.

That didn't happen with Babe. No enormous drop off.

[SmokeyJ]

Originally Posted by rats60

Not really. Best Basketball Player Wilt Chamberlain retired 47 years ago. Best Football Player Jim Brown retired 55 years ago.

I'd be interested in support for the claim that Wilt is considered the greatest NBA player of all time by fans, press, etc. I see Jordan, LeBron, Kareem, etc. at the top of the lists and discussions I see.

Similarly, I see pretty common debates among sports writers about Tom Brady, Jerry Rice, Walter Payton, Joe Montana, etc. as the NFL's best

Much like with Wilt, I see Jim Brown on these lists, but with the caveat of how much the game has advanced.

My point is that MLB debates about the best usually seem to start with the players of the deep past whereas in some other sports there is a start with current players.

Ruth played nearly 100 years ago. The man is no doubt a MLB and American history icon. An absolute legend. I'm not convinced he's the greatest to ever play, though.

[Willikn]

Originally Posted by SmokeyJ

I'd be interested in support for the claim that Wilt is considered the greatest NBA player of all time by fans, press, etc. I see Jordan, LeBron, Kareem, etc. at the top of the lists and discussions I see.

There's more than one person who feels this way. It is stat driven. The 50/25 season followed by leading the NBA in assists a decade later.

For my money, the best basketball player should be able to dribble and/or shoot the ball. Wilt could do neither. What's more, outplaying (but losing to) 6'9" Bill Russell is great. Once Kareem entered the NBA not one person felt Wilt was "the guy" anymore.

[ThoseBackPages]

[Giants1964]

1a) Babe Ruth: Dominant Offense & Dominant Pitcher
1b) Willie Mays: Greatest 5 Tool Player Ever


I agree with this assessment to a point. I know I know can't compare different eras but this is for fun right? So Mays could hit for average, power, speed, fielding...and on and on....Ruth was in a segregated league {No I am not PC just facing facts} never faced Satchel Paige or many others...Ruth was great and saved baseball after the scandal, but doesn't come close to Mays. My opinion of course...doesn't hurt that I am a Giant fan ha ha

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by REGGIE206

My opinion:

1a) Babe Ruth: Dominant Offense & Dominant Pitcher
1b) Willie Mays: Greatest 5 Tool Player Ever

This is pretty close to how I feel.

Willie Mays was the best all-around player, because of his base-running and defense.

Ruth was the best pure hitter, as well as being a pretty good pitcher, but was average at best on the bases and in the field.

[pewe]

Originally Posted by mfw13

This is pretty close to how I feel.

Willie Mays was the best all-around player, because of his base-running and defense.

Ruth was the best pure hitter, as well as being a pretty good pitcher, but was average at best on the bases and in the field.

How would you stack up Ruth's hitting vs. Williams?

[speedyjg13]

I'll go with Barry Bonds

[letsgocapitals]

Yes. Ruth hit more HRs than TEAMS in some years.

[LCM1223]

Originally Posted by HRBELLI2017

True.
I would even go as far as to say there are at least 6 or 7 players right now that have the potential to pass Trouts career totals in the end.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Willikn

You can pick a center for that, but it needs to be Kareem.

Agree with the 2nd. Good call

The NBA changed the rules to limit Wilt when he entered the league. They didn't do that for Kareem or any other player but Mikan. Wilt still holds 72 NBA records plus being part of the team that had the most wins in a row and highest margin of victory in a season. How many does Kareem have and how many of those will be broken by LeBron?

[k13]

Bonds easily. No one got intentionally walked that many times for no reason.
Trout strikes out almost as much as he gets a hit.

Ruth was great for his time but time moved on.