MLB Owners Support Thread

[Dalston]

Here's some smart analysis of where we are - https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2020/06/15...20-mlb-season/ - that suggests that the most likely reason for the current situation is the owners are split with at least 8 that don't want to play a season at all. Given that the owners need 23 votes to agree to anything if someone pushes it to a formal vote, it makes sense.

What makes no sense is Manfred's argument that "once the MLB/owners announced the official start of the season with a schedule, the Union lawyers would file a grievance and SUE MLB and say that the players are entitled to another $1 billion".

If you believe that is true, then if the owners now don't start the season at all then there will be at least equal merit in a Union grievance claiming the players are now entitled to $3bn. In fact, that grievance would be more likely to win as the owners have said many times they can play the season so an arbitrator would be far more likely to rule for the players than if they started the season. And good luck persuading an arbitrator that asking someone to waive arbitration is in itself a reasonable request. The fact that Manfred is making that argument at all proves that the emperor has no clothes.

Manfred may be many things (and personally I hope this whole mess leads to a different Commissioner), but he's an experienced lawyer who rarely behaves totally irrationally. Which is why I think the linked article is right and the owners are split.

[Eckstein197]

Originally Posted by CalCub

FYI, you don't add much value to this forum, so your opinion doesn't really have much merit, so call me names all you want, doesn't bother me...I bet reading my original post in this thread is even too much for you to read & comprehend

Again, I've had many people in this forum support me for making this thread in support of the owners, more than what you can say about any of your threads/posts

I will say, looking broadly, someone with over 6,000 posts and 41 positive reviews has added value to the forum

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by WalterAZ31

I’m pretty sure my itrader says I do, stay mad kid

I'll take a member like Walter over OP any day.

[WalterAZ31]

This is all an easy fix..owners open the financials and a deal gets done..but that would show they've been lying for years

[Dalston]

So here is Ken Rosenthal - arguably the most respected national baseball reporter around and someone who has made a career out of trying to write balanced articles that respect both the owners and players point of view. Article here - https://theathletic.com/1875065/2020...in-his-legacy/

Since it is behind a paywall, I'm not going to post it but will give some key quotes:

Yet for a guy who suddenly is looking for peace, Manfred sure has a funny way of showing it.

He and the owners, supposed stewards of the game, are turning the national pastime into a national punch line, effectively threatening to take their ball and go home while the country struggles with medical, economic and societal concerns.

Baseball is a business, we all know that. But it is a business that former commissioner Bud Selig describes as a social institution with social responsibilities, a business that holds an antitrust exemption, distinguishing it from every other professional sports league. Such a business should hold itself to a higher standard, but in these talks, if you can even call them that, Manfred and the owners keep sinking lower. Unless making dead-on-arrival proposals, tone-deaf public remarks and other assorted blunders is your idea of negotiating savvy.

The best commissioners offer statesmanlike presence and superior vision. Few ascribe those qualities to Manfred, and few would argue baseball is in a better place since he took over for Selig on Aug. 14, 2014. Rather than simply enjoy the fruits of the 2016 CBA, a lopsided victory for the owners, the clubs have gorged on them, alienating the players. And once again, they are valuing their own short-term interests over the long-term interests of the sport.

Now consider these negotiations. Perhaps Manfred is struggling to control the hard-line owners who insist the players take a pay cut from the prorated salaries they outlined in the March agreement. But has anyone – Manfred, a more conciliatory owner, anyone – attempted to sway the internal discussions in the other direction? Say to the hard-liners, “Look, we know every club is taking a hit financially, but we can’t engage in tunnel vision, can’t lose sight of the big picture, can’t let our actions reflect badly on our sport?”

[Hootiefish]

Originally Posted by WalterAZ31

This is all an easy fix..owners open the financials and a deal gets done..but that would show they've been lying for years

Amen.

I make it a point in life to not trust anyone, from businessmen to politicians, who refuse to open their books.

[CalCub]

Originally Posted by Dalston

So here is Ken Rosenthal - arguably the most respected national baseball reporter around and someone who has made a career out of trying to write balanced articles that respect both the owners and players point of view. Article here - https://theathletic.com/1875065/2020...in-his-legacy/

Since it is behind a paywall, I'm not going to post it but will give some key quotes:

Thanks for the "key" quotes from that article, but you can't blame the owners for wanting the players to waive their rights to file a grievance when the owners have been informed that the shady players union lawyers are going to turn around & sue for $1 billion in additional pay after MLB sets an official schedule, that's definitely operating on bad faith on the part of the players union

[GoBeavs]

Originally Posted by WalterAZ31

This is all an easy fix..owners open the financials and a deal gets done..but that would show they've been lying for years

Again. This is irrelevant. The players have no truthful interest in the books. All talks of revenue sharing have been shot down every time.

[Dalston]

Originally Posted by CalCub

Thanks for the "key" quotes from that article, but you can't blame the owners for wanting the players to waive their rights to file a grievance when the owners have been informed that the shady players union lawyers are going to turn around & sue for $1 billion in additional pay after MLB sets an official schedule, that's definitely operating on bad faith on the part of the players union

I can't blame them for wanting that at all, just as I can't blame myself for wanting to find a gem 2009 Trout Bowman Auto as I'm walking down the street.

But the owners have been given the go-ahead to determine how the March agreement should be interpreted. Why should they be worried about the players taking them to arbitration (which is very different than suing) unless they know the players have a strong case?

Also, note that Manfred is demanding the Players Association offers a waiver without saying what the owner's proposal is. You cannot expect any party to agree to waive anything unless they know what they are getting in return for giving a waiver.

Jumping into 5 and a half hours of meetings now, so my apologies in advance for not being able to continue the discussion.

[tkraft24]

Plenty of wrong to go around with how things work. Either side is just looking out for their own interests and posturing in advance of the next CBA. This is all about setting the tone for future negotiations fueled by some tensions that have been building for years.

It seems like the average major leaguer is younger every year and the existing pay scale is set up to reward veterans while underpaying young players. With the market for the former trending down the players have become disgruntled with owners. The entire system needs an overhaul, it’s antiquated and needs to adjust to the new game.

But in general, I’m never going to feel bad for billionaire owners who have siphoned funds away from the public to build their cash-cow stadiums.

[CalCub]

Originally Posted by tkraft24

Plenty of wrong to go around with how things work. Either side is just looking out for their own interests and posturing in advance of the next CBA. This is all about setting the tone for future negotiations fueled by some tensions that have been building for years.

It seems like the average major leaguer is younger every year and the existing pay scale is set up to reward veterans while underpaying young players. With the market for the former trending down the players have become disgruntled with owners. The entire system needs an overhaul, it’s antiquated and needs to adjust to the new game.

But in general, I’m never going to feel bad for billionaire owners who have siphoned funds away from the public to build their cash-cow stadiums.

Never feel bad for billionaires? There's players that make more in salary than some of these team owners make owning a team. If owning a sports team was so profitable, team owners wouldn't need tax payer help to make investments/capex projects for the team....and last time I checked, most tax payers who have a professional sports team in their communities, are fans of their team, so they should embrace ownership wanting to make investments & capex projects for the team, since these pro sports teams are a big part of the culture in their local communities

And yes the data suggests younger players perform much more than veteran players who are in their late 20s/early 30s around the time when they hit free agency, that's when the CBA expires, the league should make salary/contract adjustments that allow younger players to make more money when their younger....but arbitration does exist, which allows younger talented players to make much more than the league minimum, so it's not like young talented players and missing out on millions, and you're not mentioning how many younger players in their early 20s like Acuna, Eloy & Luis Robert have already signed long-term contracts to ensure they make millions while they are young, than hope they hit it big when they become free agents when they're older.

And it's not all about the CBA, the players (union & agents) are greedy and think they're entitled to full prorated pay, even though the league is going through tough financial times with a halfway canceled season and no revenue coming in from ticket sales if/when the season resumes

[CalCub]

Originally Posted by Dalston

I can't blame them for wanting that at all, just as I can't blame myself for wanting to find a gem 2009 Trout Bowman Auto as I'm walking down the street.

But the owners have been given the go-ahead to determine how the March agreement should be interpreted. Why should they be worried about the players taking them to arbitration (which is very different than suing) unless they know the players have a strong case?

Also, note that Manfred is demanding the Players Association offers a waiver without saying what the owner's proposal is. You cannot expect any party to agree to waive anything unless they know what they are getting in return for giving a waiver.

Jumping into 5 and a half hours of meetings now, so my apologies in advance for not being able to continue the discussion.

What the players get in return for waiving their right to file a grievance against MLB for more money, is getting their jobs back where they will be paid full prorated pay for ~ 50 games, than have the whole season canceled, so yes you can expect the players to operate in good faith and get the season started for the fans without any shady tactics

Why should the owners be worried about a grievance? Because legal battles are expensive, time consuming and a negative distraction...all companies/corporations do their best to protect themselves from lawsuits for these very reasons

[rcmb3220]

Originally Posted by CalCub

Never feel bad for billionaires? There's players that make more in salary than some of these team owners make owning a team. If owning a sports team was so profitable, team owners wouldn't need tax payer help to make investments/capex projects for the team....and last time I checked, most tax payers who have a professional sports team in their communities, are fans of their team, so they should embrace ownership wanting to make investments & capex projects for the team, since these pro sports teams are a big part of the culture in their local communities

And yes the data suggests younger players perform much more than veteran players who are in their late 20s/early 30s around the time when they hit free agency, that's when the CBA expires, the league should make salary/contract adjustments that allow younger players to make more money when their younger....but arbitration does exist, which allows younger talented players to make much more than the league minimum, so it's not like young talented players and missing out on millions, and you're not mentioning how many younger players in their early 20s like Acuna, Eloy & Luis Robert have already signed long-term contracts to ensure they make millions while they are young, than hope they hit it big when they become free agents when they're older.

And it's not all about the CBA, the players (union & agents) are greedy and think they're entitled to full prorated pay, even though the league is going through tough financial times with a halfway canceled season and no revenue coming in from ticket sales if/when the season resumes

Your argument of “if owning a team is so profitable, why don’t the owners build their own stadiums?” is classic post hoc ergo propter hoc. A strong debater would know that.

[dizzydolse]

Time for a new league. Joe Torre can be commissioner. Take back all taxpayer funded stadiums and play in them. I hope all the current owners die penniless.

[tkraft24]

Originally Posted by CalCub

Never feel bad for billionaires? There's players that make more in salary than some of these team owners make owning a team. If owning a sports team was so profitable, team owners wouldn't need tax payer help to make investments/capex projects for the team....and last time I checked, most tax payers who have a professional sports team in their communities, are fans of their team, so they should embrace ownership wanting to make investments & capex projects for the team, since these pro sports teams are a big part of the culture in their local communities

And yes the data suggests younger players perform much more than veteran players who are in their late 20s/early 30s around the time when they hit free agency, that's when the CBA expires, the league should make salary/contract adjustments that allow younger players to make more money when their younger....but arbitration does exist, which allows younger talented players to make much more than the league minimum, so it's not like young talented players and missing out on millions, and you're not mentioning how many younger players in their early 20s like Acuna, Eloy & Luis Robert have already signed long-term contracts to ensure they make millions while they are young, than hope they hit it big when they become free agents when they're older.

And it's not all about the CBA, the players (union & agents) are greedy and think they're entitled to full prorated pay, even though the league is going through tough financial times with a halfway canceled season and no revenue coming in from ticket sales if/when the season resumes

Private entities love to socialize costs while privatizing profit. It’s funny how crazy the valuations of ball clubs have become yet many of the owners crying poor are the same ones not selling, hmmmmm.

I totally agree that players need to be compensated better, earlier. Teams automatically getting 6+ seasons of control of a player is a problem. Some of the best players in the game make peanuts in a relative sense. Arbitration allows them to slowly ramp up to a market value but by the end of that process the players peak value has been exhausted on the cheap (again relative).

As for the current situation, was there a misunderstanding about a clause in the original deal pertaining to reopening negotiations if teams weren’t playing with fans? I haven’t seen the language from the original deal to judge whether or not the language was slippery or not.

[Stifle]

Originally Posted by CalCub

Well you obviously didn't read my post, because if you did, you'd realize the players are taking advantage of you being naive & foolish

Baseball owners in the 1890's colluded to keep payroll at a absolute low level, and it didn't end until the mid 70's. They had a 80 year run of collusion and then another 3 year stint.

Manfred was colluded during the 3 year stint in keeping payroll down for players in the mud 80's. I find it laughable that anybody would believe Manfred has the best intentions for equality.

[CalCub]

Originally Posted by tkraft24

Private entities love to socialize costs while privatizing profit. It’s funny how crazy the valuations of ball clubs have become yet many of the owners crying poor are the same ones not selling, hmmmmm.

I totally agree that players need to be compensated better, earlier. Teams automatically getting 6+ seasons of control of a player is a problem. Some of the best players in the game make peanuts in a relative sense. Arbitration allows them to slowly ramp up to a market value but by the end of that process the players peak value has been exhausted on the cheap (again relative).

As for the current situation, was there a misunderstanding about a clause in the original deal pertaining to reopening negotiations if teams weren’t playing with fans? I haven’t seen the language from the original deal to judge whether or not the language was slippery or not.

The reason you don't understand why team owners are "crying poor" when team valuations are often over $1 billion, is because you don't understand the difference between Valuation, Revenue & Profitability....they are 3 different metrics, but I guess when you blur them all together you get this perception that team owners are just hoarding stock piles of money from profits, which is not the case.

Yes, the March agreement demanded that future negotiations happen if the virus pandemic causes problems in how MLB normally operates, which turned out to be true when they realized the 2020 season won't have revenue coming in from ticket sales, so obviously the owners can't afford to pay the players full prorated normal salaries that assume there will be revenue coming in from ticket sales.

[CalCub]

Originally Posted by Stifle

Baseball owners in the 1890's colluded to keep payroll at a absolute low level, and it didn't end until the mid 70's. They had a 80 year run of collusion and then another 3 year stint.

Manfred was colluded during the 3 year stint in keeping payroll down for players in the mud 80's. I find it laughable that anybody would believe Manfred has the best intentions for equality.

Times have changed, the players union (MLBPA) is a very strong union, which has done a lot in the last 20 years to help the players get paid very well, so not sure what the labor situation between MLB & the players in the first 80 years of it's existence has to do with the current situation when the MLBPA is now very strong

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by CalCub

The reason you don't understand why team owners are "crying poor" when team valuations are often over $1 billion, is because you don't understand the difference between Valuation, Revenue & Profitability....they are 3 different metrics, but I guess when you blur them all together you get this perception that team owners are just hoarding stock piles of money from profits, which is not the case.

If that's the case, then it's up to them to prove it by opening their books.

Until they do so, nobody is going to believe them.

[tlschwerz]

I'm genuinely mind-blown that there's 31 pages on a subject this dense. Good to know people can actually be this...dumb.

[tkraft24]

Originally Posted by CalCub

The reason you don't understand why team owners are "crying poor" when team valuations are often over $1 billion, is because you don't understand the difference between Valuation, Revenue & Profitability....they are 3 different metrics, but I guess when you blur them all together you get this perception that team owners are just hoarding stock piles of money from profits, which is not the case.

Yes, the March agreement demanded that future negotiations happen if the virus pandemic causes problems in how MLB normally operates, which turned out to be true when they realized the 2020 season won't have revenue coming in from ticket sales, so obviously the owners can't afford to pay the players full prorated normal salaries that assume there will be revenue coming in from ticket sales.

The “stock piles of money” is the wealth they continue to build by growing the value of their team WHILE being profitable along the way. Why else would someone with strong business acumen hold onto a business that can be sold for an enormous profit?

I haven’t seen the actual language so can’t speak to the latter part. I’m also guessing part of the grievance is that box office revenues are estimated by many to have low profit margins factoring in operating costs. It’s all part of the show to get the easy money (tv deals, advertisements, licensing, etc).

[Lonewolf]

Another read on this stupid situation built on selfishness:

https://www.dailybulletin.com/2020/0...osed-nonsense/

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

Another read on this stupid situation built on selfishness:

https://www.dailybulletin.com/2020/0...osed-nonsense/

And another:

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...l-commissioner

No amount of name-calling, insulting, or pontificating by OP is going to change the fact that he is in the overly-vocal minority.

[Zauron]

Originally Posted by tlschwerz

I'm genuinely mind-blown that there's 31 pages on a subject this dense. Good to know people can actually be this...dumb.

It's mainly one person being aggressive and rude to others that disagree with his viewpoint.

[gradedeflator]

Originally Posted by GoBeavs

Again. This is irrelevant. The players have no truthful interest in the books. All talks of revenue sharing have been shot down every time.

I believe players want the books open because owners have claimed they will lose $640k per game played. Players asked for proof. No evidence has been shared to support this. If it were, in concept it might nudge players towards sharing Im the 2020 pain more. That is why they want books opened or some data