Kylian Mbappe

[brewtown107]

Originally Posted by FAM

Thank you.

My own counterpoint to this is that in 10 or 20 years, I am not sure people are going to think of Optic or Donruss as a 2018-2019 product as much as this was Mbappe's first France kit cards (along with Prizm, of course). So while Prizm is a World Cup set, and has the brand value of being a Prizm (and thus could be worth more), I think those priced out of those may look to the Donruss/Optic as a Mbappe France "rookie" card because it was the first France year card, not to mention that France won the World Cup.

Where I am also undecided is on Select. On the one hand it is (if I am not mistaken) the first 2017-2018 set release, but will buyers care that he is in a PSG jersey and not Monaco? I don't know. However, I would still consider it a rookie card. In addition, as noted above, the parallels are, in my opinion, absolutely amazing (disclosure: I own one of these cards)

Then you also have the Father's Day (disclosure: I own one of these cards as well), which is 2018, France kit, and as mentioned, the only one with a RC logo on the card.

You can never know for sure what collectors will decide en masse in 3 or 5 years, much less in 10 or 20 years. So you could be right.

But I think it will be significant, even then, that Mbappe's first cards are in sets that are clearly labeled or identified as 2017-18 releases (Select has 2017-18 printed on the back of the card; Topps Chrome has only a 2018 copyright, but shows stats from the 2016-17 CL season), while the Donruss/Optic cards have 2018-19 printed on the back. Pretty hard to argue they didn't come along a year later. It's right on the back of the card.

Still great cards though, and I do think his France issue, especially, in 2018-19 Donruss/Optic has room to grow if he has further success on the World Cup pitch for France. Even if applying the rookie card label is a stretch.

[fadster]

Originally Posted by brewtown107

There's a fair amount of OCD--diagnosed and otherwise--in the world of sportscard collecting. People desire a certain amount of congruence, or even uniformity. Look at the Messi/Ronaldo "post a pair" thread. We like to see a card of each of them from the same issue. Congruence. Uniformity.

For those of us in the USA who grew up collecting cards, cards are what we want. Stickers are almost like cards, and PSA/BGS will slab and grade them. They will do if there's absolutely nothing else out there, like for the old timey guys.

Heck--people will settle for a *disc* for a Maradona "rookie" issue. But I think most of us can agree that a traditional rectangular card--or a sticker that looks like a card--of Maradona would be much preferred by the collecting community if one had been released at that same time, or thereabouts. Because we desire congruence. Uniformity.

Now there are annual card releases from known card companies in the familiar brands (e.g., Topps Chrome, Prizm, Select, etc.). So we can wait for actual cards, which again, are what we want. Because they fit well with our baseball cards and (American) football cards and basketball cards, etc. Congruence. Uniformity.

Yes, the stickers are out there still, and they are often the earlier issues. Personally, I look at them like minor league team releases of American baseball players. Pre-rookie issues that might be desirable for completist collectors of a player, but not *the* issue to get if you're looking to assemble a broad collection of different players across different sports.

To be fair, it's much harder to achieve anything that resembles uniformity in soccer--especially as you go back before there were annual card releases for the Euro leagues, which is obviously not very long ago at all. But American collectors coming into this *now* and going forward from other sports are going to be drawn by default to the format (cards) and the brands (Topps, Select, Prizm, Donruss, Optic) they are familiar with. Panini Foot stickers are not part of that familiar list. Neither are Adrenalyn or Match Attax game cards, which are also largely ignored by collectors.

For that matter, Panini has issued sticker sets for MLB baseball and NBA basketball over the years here in the USA (not sure if annually) and collectors here have become accustomed to completely ignoring them. Even in the past year, when store shelves have been cleared of anything halfway decent for months at a time, you could still find a nearly full box of NBA stickers just sitting there, lonely and waiting like an ugly puppy at the pound. I passed on them myself, many times. So ignoring Panini sticker releases is an ingrained habit here.

Will this change over time? Maybe. People here resisted Panini basketball products, until we didn't. More specifically, the baseball card community ignored unlicensed Panini releases, until we didn't. Things can change.

However, the card brands that are big in the USA--Topps Chrome, Prizm, Select, etc.--are making greater and greater inroads overseas in places like Europe and Asia, with new releases now coming every year. So it seems *more* likely that those will continue to be the go-to brands worldwide for card collectors. They're the brands people seem to want most--not just in the USA, but in other places across the world.

I've been hearing the same things for years, Americans will never buy stickers and Europeans will never buy premium cards. Yet all that has happened over time is people have pragmatically met in the middle as they realise you can't tell the story of the hobby without both and it's been great for prices and interest in the hobby. Maybe there will never be total acceptance both ways but that's not necessary, the global pool of collectors is so large. It's not just key rookie stickers being bought, what is healthy to see is that key players and tournament stickers have taken off too. One of the big stumbling blocks in the past has also been the lack of graded examples, that has been getting better and now there are now 2 official PSA dealers in Europe so we should see even more normalisation in the future. To be honest once they're slabbed I find people's opposition to them reduces greatly.

This year the Fati and Haaland stickers have held up surprisingly well despite all the card choices out there, I really thought they'd come off in price more but there's obviously a lot of real demand for them. With new releases I usually only pick up the stickers early on in the season as an insurance in case nothing else comes out but if a card comes out I grab that (eg Haaland and Fati this year) but sometimes they just don't (eg Camavinga this year).

I really think a big part of it has been people getting into the hobby buying the young guys then going to buy the old stars and realising the landscape is very different and flexibility is needed. Zidane, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Van Basten, Gullit, Baggio, etc were all sticker exclusives several without cards for many years. Once they dive in and cross the line it becomes a far smaller issue in the future.

The Maradona you mention is a nice example too, a completely different format in itself that was popular in Argentina for many years. Small card discs meant to be stuck into albums, neither trading card nor sticker, but everyone deals with it pragmatically, it is what it is. The hobby has been around 120+ years, it's not just stickers and trading cards, once you start going back even more you get into cigarette cards, trade cards, discs, shields and more.

[brewtown107]

Originally Posted by fadster

I've been hearing the same things for years, Americans will never buy stickers and Europeans will never buy premium cards. Yet all that has happened over time is people have pragmatically met in the middle as they realise you can't tell the story of the hobby without both and it's been great for prices and interest in the hobby. Maybe there will never be total acceptance both ways but that's not necessary, the global pool of collectors is so large. It's not just key rookie stickers being bought, what is healthy to see is that key players and tournament stickers have taken off too. One of the big stumbling blocks in the past has also been the lack of graded examples, that has been getting better and now there are now 2 official PSA dealers in Europe so we should see even more normalisation in the future. To be honest once they're slabbed I find people's opposition to them reduces greatly.

This year the Fati and Haaland stickers have held up surprisingly well despite all the card choices out there, I really thought they'd come off in price more but there's obviously a lot of real demand for them. With new releases I usually only pick up the stickers early on in the season as an insurance in case nothing else comes out but if a card comes out I grab that (eg Haaland and Fati this year) but sometimes they just don't (eg Camavinga this year).

I really think a big part of it has been people getting into the hobby buying the young guys then going to buy the old stars and realising the landscape is very different and flexibility is needed. Zidane, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Van Basten, Gullit, Baggio, etc were all sticker exclusives several without cards for many years. Once they dive in and cross the line it becomes a far smaller issue in the future.

The Maradona you mention is a nice example too, a completely different format in itself that was popular in Argentina for many years. Small card discs meant to be stuck into albums, neither trading card nor sticker, but everyone deals with it pragmatically, it is what it is. The hobby has been around 120+ years, it's not just stickers and trading cards, once you start going back even more you get into cigarette cards, trade cards, discs, shields and more.

You're right--the sticker vs. card debate has gone on for a long while. And things do seem to be meeting in the middle. Hence, the 2016 Mbappe sticker commanding the prices we are seeing. We see this especially with slabbed examples. Slabbing provides some of that congruence. Uniformity.

I was simply responding to the post saying they don't understand why US based collectors look past stickers. It's something we've done for many years, and old habits die hard--especially when preferred options are available. But there's plenty of room in the collecting world for all of it. People should collect what they like.

[FAM]

^to Brewtown107 and Fadster's points:

To your comments on stickers in the US. We may indeed see a shift, and this is speaking to non-soccer sports. Brewtown107: I agree that it seems that they are ignored. Yet something I am noticing, but not exactly sure why is the following: The Luka Doncic 2018 European rookie sticker (especially slabbed) is doing very well in high grades. I don't know if this is because of the overall demand for Luka, or, and I have not examined the data on this, but whether the market is more interested for a Panini sticker of foreign players (and this goes to your point on how much of the world collects stickers), but not of US players. I would have to study the market and data on whether the theory holds with others players (Giannis would be another data point to study), but at least with graded Lukas, there seems to be more demand than usual.

[k13]

In 10 to 20 years no one will care about Mbappe so dont have to worry whats the real rookie.

[Bergkamp11]

Originally Posted by k13

In 10 to 20 years no one will care about Mbappe so dont have to worry whats the real rookie.

That's a really stupid way to look at it, are other great players of the past just forgotten about? He most likely will have a solid career overall and will always be remembered as a big star of the France World Cup championship team. His early cards (whichever it is) will always have relevance.

[fadster]

Originally Posted by k13

In 10 to 20 years no one will care about Mbappe so dont have to worry whats the real rookie.

Like clockwork

[k13]

Originally Posted by Bergkamp11

That's a really stupid way to look at it, are other great players of the past just forgotten about? He most likely will have a solid career overall and will always be remembered as a big star of the France World Cup championship team. His early cards (whichever it is) will always have relevance.

Yeah they are.
Majority of star players even legends are forgotten about especially in the hobby.

Like that in every sport.

Everything is about what have you done for me lately and the next flavor of the month.

[bobbycass]

Originally Posted by k13

Yeah they are.
Majority of star players even legends are forgotten about especially in the hobby.

Like that in every sport.

Everything is about what have you done for me lately and the next flavor of the month.

Ah, I dont know about that. For sure I can still pick up Jean Pierre Papin's rookie a for a fiver but I think that will change in the near the future.

Pele, Best, Maradona, Eusebio, Platini are all going for quite a bit of money.