2020 Politics Thread - Enter At Your Own Risk - RULES IN OP

[DegaBama]

Originally Posted by marl1220

What about rape? Should these women be forced to go through with their permanency?

A lot of people say they are only for abortion if it is due to rape or incest and sometimes health related. Then don't allow abortion unless it's due to that.

Me, personally, I am not for abortion because I believe it is a life killing a life. After seeing the film, "Gosnell", it opened my eyes to so much more.

[charnick]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

Yes, in my opinion.

It sucks, but it's not the child's fault. It's not the woman's either, but one outweighs the other.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

The fact that the men in this thread have no concept, perspective, or even the slightest ability to grasp of the unintended consequences of abortion restrictions is not surprising, but to hear a woman be in favor of FORCING another woman to do anything with her own body is unfortunate. Are you aware of the states that are trying to use the debate to criminalize fetal demise in all its forms?

https://www.whijournal.com/article/S...023-2/fulltext

My wife and I walked into our OB's office one day in May 2017, in my wife's 24th week, and there was no heartbeat. I had to watch as she delivered our dead daughter, and it has destroyed our lives since. And it sounds like some folks in this thread would like to have her thrown in jail for that.

I understand both sides, I grew up very pro-choice and have become much more pro-life in my middle age, but was still never, never, never in favor of the government legislating what any woman can do with her own body. And the fact that pro-life people call the other side pro-abortion is grotesque at its core. As someone said earlier, NO ONE IS PRO-ABORTION. NO ONE. EVER.

And if any one in this thread believes my wife should be jailed for our stillbirth... I've love to see you have the balls to say it to my face.

[Ray27Ray52]

As a male Republican I have always believed, and will continue to believe, that I don't have a vagina so I don't get to tell a woman what she can do with her body.

[NeedChapmans]

Originally Posted by quackhead

Costco has been selling the tests online and I'm wondering if this has something to do with the uptick in cases.

https://abc7news.com/costco-covid-te...-work/7284085/

Absolutely is. Every day we get further in, the closer we are getting to actual case #'s. Consider the average number of tests the country has been running since the start (tally for just the last day of the month)

March - 115,228
April - 259,232
May - 401,105
June - 663,219
July - 993,926
August - 735,902
September - 904,382
October - 1,373,318

This data alone can tell you two things. First; it shows that there was a dip in testing in August, likely because of the weather and the pandemic actually receding a touch. Second, it tells you that the more you test, the more cases you find. Imagine if we were testing 1.373 million people in April. I bet our recorded cases a good # of multiples higher.

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by charnick

The fact that the men in this thread have no concept, perspective, or even the slightest ability to grasp of the unintended consequences of abortion restrictions is not surprising, but to hear a woman be in favor of FORCING another woman to do anything with her own body is unfortunate. Are you aware of the states that are trying to use the debate to criminalize fetal demise in all its forms?

https://www.whijournal.com/article/S...023-2/fulltext

My wife and I walked into our OB's office one day in May 2017, in my wife's 24th week, and there was no heartbeat. I had to watch as she delivered our dead daughter, and it has destroyed our lives since. And the PIGS in this thread would like to have her thrown in jail for that.

I understand both sides, I grew up very pro-choice and have become much more pro-life in my middle age, but was still never, never, never in favor of the government legislating what any woman can do with her own body. And the fact that pro-life people call the other side pro-abortion is grotesque at its core. As someone said earlier, NO ONE IS PRO-ABORTION. NO ONE. EVER.

And if any one in this thread believes my wife should be jailed for our stillbirth... I've love to see you have the balls to say it to my face.

I'm not sure where this is coming from.

It sucks that you and your wife had to go through such horrific events.

Why would a woman be jailed over a stillbirth?

I think a woman can indeed do what she wants with her own body, as long as her actions do not result in another person's death. It's just like anyone else's freedom. Do what you like, just don't hurt anyone else.

Sadly, the pregnancy question isn't that simple. One person's life is dependent on another person. I weigh the child's life heavily. That is my position. Nobody will ever change my mind, no matter how pissed off or unhinged they get about it.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

[mike1498]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

Because America is more diverse, lol.

I didn't prove your point. I'm not even sure you had a point other than saying my statement (which you misunderstood) about VP importance was "bull crap".

The rest of your comment had nothing to do with anything and came off as unhinged rambling.

Gather yourself. Nobody is attacking you.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

This didn't counter anything. VP and ever other position is viewed through identity lens. You still can't defend this answer still. It's quite obvious and it's from ever race.

And are we really "more" diverse than we were before? More accepting is fair. It's not like in the 1950's there were no other color besides whites but our government would appear otherwise.

[mike1498]

Originally Posted by Ray27Ray52

As a male Republican I have always believed, and will continue to believe, that I don't have a vagina so I don't get to tell a woman what she can do with her body.

I hope you don't use that mentality when dealing with someone who's harming themselves.

[rcmb3220]

Abortion is such a meaningless issue on the national level. It’s merely used as a wedge issue with voters. Don’t fall for it.

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by mike1498

This didn't counter anything. VP and ever other position is viewed through identity lens. You still can't defend this answer still. It's quite obvious and it's from ever race.



And are we really "more" diverse than we were before? More accepting is fair. It's not like in the 1950's there were no other color besides whites but our government would appear otherwise.

Again, you seem to be rambling about things that are irrelevant to what I was saying. Why would I defend a position I didn't take in the first place?

VPs are not important was my position. You went off on some tangent about parties, diversity, whatever.

Very few people, if any, voted for Trump because of Pence. That's my position. Why are you wandering off into other things as if they're relevant?

Identity politics, diversity, whatever. Nobody cares about Mike Pence. C'mon.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

[charnick]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

I'm not sure where this is coming from.

It sucks that you and your wife had to go through such horrific events.

Why would a woman be jailed over a stillbirth?

I think a woman can indeed do what she wants with her own body, as long as her actions do not result in another person's death. It's just like anyone else's freedom. Do what you like, just don't hurt anyone else.

Sadly, the pregnancy question isn't that simple. One person's life is dependent on another person. I weigh the child's life heavily. That is my position. Nobody will ever change my mind, no matter how pissed off or unhinged they get about it.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

I don't want to change your mind, Rachel. I disagree, but I respect the way you feel. You ask why would a woman be jailed over a stillbirth? Great question, and I direct you to the link I posted. A portion:

"Although most pregnancy loss is unpreventable, fetal harm legislation has been used to charge women with feticide, manslaughter, reckless homicide, child abuse, and first-degree murder after having a miscarriage or stillbirth. Thirty-eight states have “fetal homicide” laws that distinguish the death of the developing pregnancy from the death of the pregnant person (National Conference of State Legislatures, 2018). This language was intended to increase protections to the pregnant person in cases of violent crimes against them. However, these laws have also been used against the pregnant person in cases of pregnancy loss. In 10 states, fetal harm laws lack explicit exemptions for pregnant women, making them particularly vulnerable to criminalization. Even in states with exemptions for pregnant women, arrests have been made in cases of pregnancy loss (If/When/How, 2019)."

So I don't have the answer to that question, but that does not discount that there are states in the union that are actively trying to do exactly that. Thank you for your kind words, I read the thread often, and I too am sorry for what you have gone through.

[Chris Lyle]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

Which opinion? I'm lost. What did you disagree with?

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by JustRachel View Post
You might be right. I don't think so, but I can see the point.

First, I am against abortions in almost all cases. I can only think of one instance I thought it was acceptable. That instance concerned a woman who would have likely lost both her child and her own life had she not been allowed to abort. I will never, ever change my stance on abortion. It is the most important political issue for me, bar none.

But, the majority of Americans see it differently. I get that. I suspect that many non-republicans are turned away due to this stance by the party. I also suspect many people vote conservative specifically because of it. That being said, I would guess the party loses more votes than it gains on the issue.


Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

The bolded opinion

[mike1498]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

Again, you seem to be rambling about things that are irrelevant to what I was saying. Why would I defend a position I didn't take in the first place?

VPs are not important was my position. You went off on some tangent about parties, diversity, whatever.

Very few people, if any, voted for Trump because of Pence. That's my position. Why are you wandering off into other things as if they're relevant?

Identity politics, diversity, whatever. Nobody cares about Mike Pence. C'mon.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

I highly disagree. You just don't identify with Pence that's why you don't see it. As a church goer, I could totally see how an evangelical on the ticket got their vote. To me, I don't care. To some in the church, their nuts. The tangent was to prove this happens in every position so why is VP any different. You don't think if the democrats became pro life that tomorrow that there wouldn't be a ton of new democrats?

[cnewby]

Originally Posted by charnick

The fact that the men in this thread have no concept, perspective, or even the slightest ability to grasp of the unintended consequences of abortion restrictions is not surprising, but to hear a woman be in favor of FORCING another woman to do anything with her own body is unfortunate. Are you aware of the states that are trying to use the debate to criminalize fetal demise in all its forms?

https://www.whijournal.com/article/S...023-2/fulltext

My wife and I walked into our OB's office one day in May 2017, in my wife's 24th week, and there was no heartbeat. I had to watch as she delivered our dead daughter, and it has destroyed our lives since. And it sounds like some folks in this thread would like to have her thrown in jail for that.

I understand both sides, I grew up very pro-choice and have become much more pro-life in my middle age, but was still never, never, never in favor of the government legislating what any woman can do with her own body. And the fact that pro-life people call the other side pro-abortion is grotesque at its core. As someone said earlier, NO ONE IS PRO-ABORTION. NO ONE. EVER.

And if any one in this thread believes my wife should be jailed for our stillbirth... I've love to see you have the balls to say it to my face.

Just because you have a terribly sad story doesn't make your opinion any more right than the next person. Its still just your opinion.

Sorry for your loss.

[yanksfan1]

Originally Posted by mike1498

I highly disagree. You just don't identify with Pence that's why you don't see it. As a church goer, I could totally see how an evangelical on the ticket got their vote. To me, I don't care. To some in the church, their nuts. The tangent was to prove this happens in every position so why is VP any different. You don't think if the democrats became pro life that tomorrow that there wouldn't be a ton of new democrats?

VPs really only matter for shoring up your base. No middle of the road voter was won over by Mike Pence or Kamala Harris.

[DegaBama]

Originally Posted by NeedChapmans

Absolutely is. Every day we get further in, the closer we are getting to actual case #'s. Consider the average number of tests the country has been running since the start (tally for just the last day of the month)

March - 115,228
April - 259,232
May - 401,105
June - 663,219
July - 993,926
August - 735,902
September - 904,382
October - 1,373,318

This data alone can tell you two things. First; it shows that there was a dip in testing in August, likely because of the weather and the pandemic actually receding a touch. Second, it tells you that the more you test, the more cases you find. Imagine if we were testing 1.373 million people in April. I bet our recorded cases a good # of multiples higher.

Just imagine if people knew how bad Europe is doing right now.

[mike1498]

Originally Posted by yanksfan1

VPs really only matter for shoring up your base. No middle of the road voter was won over by Mike Pence or Kamala Harris.

I'll admit, it's less influenced because they are tied together, but if that statement is true, what was the purpose of making either of them a pawn?

Clearly both had a little uncertainty (Trump being unchristian and Biden being white) that they needed to knot up the vote.

I don't get how this is hard to see. If they felt these moves weren't necessary they wouldn't have done them.

[charnick]

Originally Posted by cnewby

Just because you have a terribly sad story doesn't make your opinion any more right than the next person. Its still just your opinion.

Sorry for your loss.

I can't believe I'm saying this to you of all folks, but thanks for that, I greatly appreciate it.

You are 100% correct, still just one man with one opinion and one vote, same as you. And like I said to Rachel, I am not trying to change your mind. This debate will rage for as long as our union stands. All I ask is that you see what states are doing to criminalize other means of fetal demise that really have nothing to do with voluntary pregnancy termination.

Again, thank you for saying that, it's so much better to see than coffee emojis.

[DegaBama]

Originally Posted by charnick

I can't believe I'm saying this to you of all folks, but thanks for that, I greatly appreciate it.

You are 100% correct, still just one man with one opinion and one vote, same as you. And like I said to Rachel, I am not trying to change your mind. This debate will rage for as long as our union stands. All I ask is that you see what states are doing to criminalize other means of fetal demise that really have nothing to do with voluntary pregnancy termination.

Again, thank you for saying that, it's so much better to see than coffee emojis.

Anyone who thinks what she went through is wrong... I will need a lot of alcohol to understand why they think that. Terrible, sorry you went through that.

[charnick]

Originally Posted by DegaBama

Anyone who thinks what she went through is wrong... I will need a lot of alcohol to understand why they think that. Terrible, sorry you went through that.

We too argued often here so I will always say to any of you that I've crossed paths with here that your words are accepted with an open heart and an open mind. If you have any interest in it, I suggest reading more about the topic. I only learned more about it after we joined this unfortunate club no one wants to be a member of.

Your state actually seems to be one of the prime culprits in passing legislation to criminalize fetal demise. I haven't gone down the rabbit hole on Alabama specifically, but here's one article I just found that you might find interesting:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...anda-kimbrough

One salient portion:

"Later, the profound legal issues raised by the case would rise up through appeals all the way to the Alabama supreme court, the highest judicial panel in the state, where it would set a new precedent. In effect, it renders all pregnant women vulnerable to prosecution for any harm they might cause their fetus at any time after the moment of conception."

[cnewby]

Originally Posted by charnick

I can't believe I'm saying this to you of all folks, but thanks for that, I greatly appreciate it.

You are 100% correct, still just one man with one opinion and one vote, same as you. And like I said to Rachel, I am not trying to change your mind. This debate will rage for as long as our union stands. All I ask is that you see what states are doing to criminalize other means of fetal demise that really have nothing to do with voluntary pregnancy termination.

Again, thank you for saying that, it's so much better to see than coffee emojis.

I've been through a "2am wakeup at home miscarriage" so I have felt loss, but can't fathom going to the Dr and enduring that process knowing how stressful it is when all is going right.

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by charnick

I don't want to change your mind, Rachel. I disagree, but I respect the way you feel. You ask why would a woman be jailed over a stillbirth? Great question, and I direct you to the link I posted. A portion:

"Although most pregnancy loss is unpreventable, fetal harm legislation has been used to charge women with feticide, manslaughter, reckless homicide, child abuse, and first-degree murder after having a miscarriage or stillbirth. Thirty-eight states have “fetal homicide” laws that distinguish the death of the developing pregnancy from the death of the pregnant person (National Conference of State Legislatures, 2018). This language was intended to increase protections to the pregnant person in cases of violent crimes against them. However, these laws have also been used against the pregnant person in cases of pregnancy loss. In 10 states, fetal harm laws lack explicit exemptions for pregnant women, making them particularly vulnerable to criminalization. Even in states with exemptions for pregnant women, arrests have been made in cases of pregnancy loss (If/When/How, 2019)."

So I don't have the answer to that question, but that does not discount that there are states in the union that are actively trying to do exactly that. Thank you for your kind words, I read the thread often, and I too am sorry for what you have gone through.

I appreciate the response and the kindness it contains.

Those states are on some shaky legal and moral ground for sure. I would have to read their exact laws and proposals to firm an educated position on them. I suppose differing points of view could see the line between miscarriage/stillbirth and intentionally harming a fetus in different ways. The whole concept is unfortunate.

It is horrifying to think that a woman unintentionally losing her pregnancy could be thought of as a crime. I wonder where deliberate indifference as to the child's health might come into play. Complicated stuff, for sure.

My wish is not to punish anyone. My wish is to protect fetuses, which I see as children. No more, no less.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by Chris Lyle

Originally Posted by JustRachel View Post

You might be right. I don't think so, but I can see the point.



First, I am against abortions in almost all cases. I can only think of one instance I thought it was acceptable. That instance concerned a woman who would have likely lost both her child and her own life had she not been allowed to abort. I will never, ever change my stance on abortion. It is the most important political issue for me, bar none.



But, the majority of Americans see it differently. I get that. I suspect that many non-republicans are turned away due to this stance by the party. I also suspect many people vote conservative specifically because of it. That being said, I would guess the party loses more votes than it gains on the issue.





Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk



The bolded opinion

That one instance is in relation to a court case I remember a few years ago in Arizona. A woman was in the care of St Joseph's hospital, a Catholic funded facility.

The main issue in that instance was that this pregnant woman had been diagnosed with some condition that made it nearly impossible for her or her baby to survive childbirth. Because abortion was not performed at that hospital, she was in a pickle. The doctors had concluded that her baby was not going to survive, so the question was not about saving the baby. The two options, according to the doctors, were: 1) baby aborted, mother might survive, and 2) baby not aborted, both baby and mother die.

In that one case, I wouldve supported the abortion because the baby wasn't going to survive either way, according to the doctors.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

[charnick]

Originally Posted by cnewby

I've been through a "2am wakeup at home miscarriage" so I have felt loss, but can't fathom going to the Dr and enduring that process knowing how stressful it is when all is going right.

I probably don't have to tell you it was the worst day of my life. And althought beyond the scope of this thread, it's one of the roadblocks that's been put up between my wife and I since because apparently, from getting more involved in that community over the past couple of years, that there's a weird dynamic between mothers of miscarriages and those of stillbirths (I think 20 weeks is the line between the two) where it becomes a who's loss is worse situation. It's common and part of the grieving process, but as a man, I never understood it.

That being said, I don't ascribe to it, so your loss saddens me deeply as well, and I hope you and your partner (at the time or now, you needn't elaborate) have been able to persevere. All the best.

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by mike1498

I highly disagree. You just don't identify with Pence that's why you don't see it. As a church goer, I could totally see how an evangelical on the ticket got their vote. To me, I don't care. To some in the church, their nuts. The tangent was to prove this happens in every position so why is VP any different. You don't think if the democrats became pro life that tomorrow that there wouldn't be a ton of new democrats?

People vote for the president.

I get that you disagree and that's okay. I also get that some fraction of people will see it your way and another fraction mine. It's not 100% either way.

I think my fraction is bigger, you think yours is. Since I'm not the type to whip em out and see which is bigger, I'm content to accept a disagreement on the issue.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

[Ray27Ray52]

Originally Posted by mike1498

I hope you don't use that mentality when dealing with someone who's harming themselves.

Harming themselves how? I'm talking specifically in terms of the topic at hand which is abortion.