Jordan Star rookie question

[EJKaufman]

Originally Posted by Diana1984

Is this the reason why people go through PWCC or Goldin to prevent something like that from happening?

That is less likely with them and they also tend to get higher prices since people feel more comfortable buying from a big company vs Joe Schmo on eBay when spending large dollar sums. I sell all of my cards through the PWCC Vault and I've done great. Probably selling for more $ than if I sold through my personal eBay account.

[aro13]

Originally Posted by EJKaufman

That is less likely with them and they also tend to get higher prices since people feel more comfortable buying from a big company vs Joe Schmo on eBay when spending large dollar sums. I sell all of my cards through the PWCC Vault and I've done great. Probably selling for more $ than if I sold through my personal eBay account.

Do you know the seller? Just as easily could have been a shill bid winning. The seller is not going to say - I shilled it up and won it myself.

Can't speak to Goldin but PWCC has a history of people shilling their auctions and "winning" their own cards back to artificially raise prices.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by aro13

Do you know the seller? Just as easily could have been a shill bid winning. The seller is not going to say - I shilled it up and won it myself.

Can't speak to Goldin but PWCC has a history of people shilling their auctions and "winning" their own cards back to artificially raise prices.

Shill bidding that's actually paid for seems like in the same controversial and supposedly shady category as ticket scalping (say). The seller+buyer is participating in the market after seeing the market's reaction, and is now willing to incur transactional costs on both the buying and selling end (although admittedly PWCC cuts down on transaction costs if you don't mind your collectibles going to or staying in OR to avoid sales taxes among other things).

Shill bidding that isn't paid for sounds like bad-faith "negotiation" and contractual entry, which sounds open to legal prosecution, yes?

[aro13]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

Shill bidding that's actually paid for seems like in the same controversial and supposedly shady category as ticket scalping (say). The seller+buyer is participating in the market after seeing the market's reaction, and is now willing to incur transactional costs on both the buying and selling end (although admittedly PWCC cuts down on transaction costs if you don't mind your collectibles going to or staying in OR to avoid sales taxes among other things).

Shill bidding that isn't paid for sounds like bad-faith "negotiation" and contractual entry, which sounds open to legal prosecution, yes?

Buyer consigns card - buyer wins card - price established. Buyer pays the consignment fee. Buyer consigns card again with same company.

Some auction houses (Heritage for example) state in their terms that the house or employees are allowed to bid on the auction. Otherwise, I believe yes, you can be charged if you are caught shill bidding. Mastro was convicted for among other things, shill bidding, I believe.

[mkebucks2001]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

Shill bidding that's actually paid for seems like in the same controversial and supposedly shady category as ticket scalping (say). The seller+buyer is participating in the market after seeing the market's reaction, and is now willing to incur transactional costs on both the buying and selling end (although admittedly PWCC cuts down on transaction costs if you don't mind your collectibles going to or staying in OR to avoid sales taxes among other things).

Shill bidding that isn't paid for sounds like bad-faith "negotiation" and contractual entry, which sounds open to legal prosecution, yes?

I'm a lawyer and I don't really understand what you're saying about "contractual entry". If you really want to learn about this, I would suggest reading up on the Sherman Act and its application to price fixing.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by mkebucks2001

I'm a lawyer and I don't really understand what you're saying about "contractual entry". If you really want to learn about this, I would suggest reading up on the Sherman Act and its application to price fixing.

Thanks.

[mkebucks2001]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

Thanks.

Of course. Definitely some interesting issues here.

[EJKaufman]

Originally Posted by aro13

Do you know the seller? Just as easily could have been a shill bid winning. The seller is not going to say - I shilled it up and won it myself.

Can't speak to Goldin but PWCC has a history of people shilling their auctions and "winning" their own cards back to artificially raise prices.

I don't know the seller but he told me the story of how the card got relisted again because I asked.

[thenwhatjk]

This is my buddy’s card, no chance it ends here, right? It should get at least a couple more bids, no?

https://sports.ha.com/itm/basketball...umbnail-071515

[pingbling23]

Originally Posted by thenwhatjk

This is my buddy’s card, no chance it ends here, right? It should get at least a couple more bids, no?

https://sports.ha.com/itm/basketball...umbnail-071515

Hope so, that’s the exact grades my 101 has. Nice to know I’ve got $50k sitting in a cardboard box in one of my spare bedrooms lol.

[EJKaufman]

Originally Posted by thenwhatjk

This is my buddy’s card, no chance it ends here, right? It should get at least a couple more bids, no?

https://sports.ha.com/itm/basketball...umbnail-071515

You would think so I mean the BGS 8 in the same auction is currently at 54K with buyer's premium. So, I would think a BGS 7.5 should definitely do 30k plus. If it doesn't it would be a steal in the 20's.

[pingbling23]

Originally Posted by pingbling23

Hope so, that’s the exact grades my 101 has. Nice to know I’ve got $50k sitting in a cardboard box in one of my spare bedrooms lol.

My mistake, I was meaning the bgs 8 with 7.5/9.5/9/9

[EJKaufman]

Originally Posted by pingbling23

My mistake, I was meaning the bgs 8 with 7.5/9.5/9/9

Did $55.2k with premium tonight. Solid number.

[Diana1984]

Is it me? or is this the worst graded 8.5 ever? That upper left corner looks really bad.

https://goldinauctions.com/1984_85_S...-LOT88190.aspx

[rueben21]

Agreed and upper right has some issues too. Seen 8's a lot better

[2010GBPackers]

Honestly, the grading on these are so all over the place, you need to buy the best eye-appeal card you can. I've seen almost identical centering be an 8.5 on one copy and 6.5 on another. And since BGS goes on "an average grade" most of the 6.5 centering's are at best BGS 7's while the 8.5 centering is at worst a BGS 8. You need to be a very saavy collector if you are going to buy a 101 Star Jordan.

[EJKaufman]

Originally Posted by Diana1984

Is it me? or is this the worst graded 8.5 ever? That upper left corner looks really bad.

https://goldinauctions.com/1984_85_S...-LOT88190.aspx

Upper left corner is a disaster. I would not touch that card.

[EJKaufman]

Originally Posted by 2010GBPackers

Honestly, the grading on these are so all over the place, you need to buy the best eye-appeal card you can. I've seen almost identical centering be an 8.5 on one copy and 6.5 on another. And since BGS goes on "an average grade" most of the 6.5 centering's are at best BGS 7's while the 8.5 centering is at worst a BGS 8. You need to be a very saavy collector if you are going to buy a 101 Star Jordan.

Very, very true!

[2010GBPackers]

Originally Posted by EJKaufman

Very, very true!

Here's a little smattering of the wide centering interpretation by BGS graders. One thing to pay attention to is the top-to-bottom centering. This is one of the reasons I believe PSA is scared to grade these. The variation in dimensions is all about the top-to-bottom centering. Most Star 101's are cut at the same location at the bottom, however, there is a large variation where they were cut across the top. (You can see this in the examples below) While most collectors are concerned with the left-to-right centering, 99/100 times it's way off so don't get too concerned with good R-L centering. I'm almost convinced that any 9 or 9.5 centering grades were actually sheet cut, not factory cut - the centering is consistently that bad.

For you savvy collectors, if you are buying a Star Jordan, you better be buying one that will cross to PSA. It's not guaranteed to happen, but indications are that they eventually will. Do not get stuck paying big money for an 8.5 when it may only cross to a PSA 7 or 7.5 when factoring in PSA's standards. Below I have side-by-side copies from Goldin's action. I'd bet money that the 7.5 would grade the same or higher than the 8.5 with PSA. I'd also put the centering of the BGS 7 and 7.5 (in the 9-card grid below) up against most of the other Star Jordan's in that group.

If/when PSA starts grading them, getting stuck with a Star Jordan in a BGS case will tremendously devalue it. I'd be real nervous if I had a 9 or one of the three 9.5 since they may be sheet-cut.

Goldin's current BGS 8.5 vs. their 7.5




More examples:

[Diana1984]

I totally see what your saying. The sizes of the these cards is all over the please. However, if PSA ever decides to grade these, wouldnt the prices go up overall?

[mkebucks2001]

Thanks for all of the examples. What are your thoughts on this one? Surprisingly high centering grade. Does it look sheet cut to you?

[Diana1984]

so if its sheet cut, the top of the card has a smaller border. and if its factory cut, the top has a bigger border. is that correct?

[2010GBPackers]

Originally Posted by Diana1984

I totally see what your saying. The sizes of the these cards is all over the please. However, if PSA ever decides to grade these, wouldnt the prices go up overall?

Maybe. There's no other key card that PSA refuses to grade but BGS does. I'd just be wary holding a "poor for the grade" BGS copy. The last BGS 9 #101 Goldin sold went for $162k. I can't see that retaining it's value if PSA starts grading them and the owner keeps it in a BGS 9 holder or if it doesn't cross.

What has me concerned for buyers trying to obtain one is the ever-growing gap between PSA and BGS grades. For instance, Kobe's '96 TC refractor in a BGS 9.5 case used to be more desirable than a PSA 10 copy. (BGS ruled modern card grading up until ~2016/17) Now a PSA 10 sells for 3x a BGS 9.5. But people have no cost basis for what an equal grade PSA Star Jordan would bring. If a BGS 8.5 brings $65k, what would a PSA 8.5 bring? $100k? $150k? Or, if PSA 8.5's bring $80k, does the BGS 8.5 price tumble to $40k or lower?

There have been a few old label PSA Star 101 Jordan's (pop 13) that have sold recently, but I'd be wary there too. The last one to sell, a PSA 8, went for $160k! The only reason to buy at that price is if you assume PSA will never grade them because if PSA does start grading them, that price-point most likely takes a hit.

[2010GBPackers]

Originally Posted by mkebucks2001

Thanks for all of the examples. What are your thoughts on this one? Surprisingly high centering grade. Does it look sheet cut to you?

No chance that is sheet cut. Unless, of course, that person was an idiot. You sheet cut a card to get a gem example.

Originally Posted by Diana1984

so if its sheet cut, the top of the card has a smaller border. and if its factory cut, the top has a bigger border. is that correct?

No, not at all. Good/great L-R centering with smooth edges would signal a sheet cut, not T-B centering.

[mkebucks2001]

Originally Posted by 2010GBPackers

No chance that is sheet cut. Unless, of course, that person was an idiot. You sheet cut a card to get a gem example.



No, not at all. Good/great L-R centering with smooth edges would signal a sheet cut, not T-B centering.

LOL, thanks for the insight. I pulled the trigger on the 5.5 - so happy to have one of these on the way. My definite grail.