MJ has 5 MVPs, LeBron 4, Kobe 1 - is one of these not like the other two?

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by robert0629

I don’t believe Kobe got cheated out of any MVPs. Some fans feel that he deserved the Nash MVPs. In the case of the first Nash MVP in 04-05, there’s absolutely no argument. Kobe received zero votes and played in just 66 games with his Lakers finishing 34-48 and out of the playoffs. Nash probably didn’t deserve that MVP either. I don’t know why Amar’e didn’t recieve more MVP votes that season. He finished tied for 9th, but finished ahead of Nash in PER, WS, WS/48, and VORP. Dirk and Shaq were also more deserving than Nash in my opinion.

The best arguments for Kobe are in 02-03, 05-06, and 06-07. In 02-03 Duncan wins it with Kobe coming in third. Kobe does deserve consideration coming in second in the league with a 30.0 PTS, and leading the Lakers while playing all 82 games. Shaq missed 15 games that season. However, Shaq was still the Lakers best player when he was on the court. He led Kobe in some key metrics - PER and WS/48. This weakens the case for Kobe. Also, Duncan led Kobe in PER, WS, and WS/48. They tied in VORP. What puts it over the top for Duncan is the fact that the Spurs finished first in their Division at 60-22, while the Lakers were second in their division at 50-32.

05-06 was the second Nash MVP. Although he was better than in his first MVP, Nash didn’t deserve this MVP in my opinion. But that doesn’t mean Kobe deserved it. Kobe did have his best scoring season in 05-06, leading the league with a 35.4 PTS. Kobe finished third that season in PER behind both Dirk and LeBron. He finished fourth in WS behind Dirk, LeBron, and Billups. He finished eighth in WS/48, with Dirk, Billups, and LeBron all finishing ahead of him. And he was second in VORP behind LeBron and just a bit ahead of Dirk. The problem with giving this MVP to Kobe is the Lakers finished sixth in the West with a 45-37 record. The records for the Pistons, Mavs, and Cavs, and were all better. The Pistons went 64-18, the Mavs 60-22, and the Cavs 50-32. In my opinion, Dirk was the most deserving this season. Can you really give it to Kobe, when Dirk leads him in PER, WS, WS/48, and just slightly behind in VORP, while his team finished 15 games better?

06-07 really isn’t that close at all, but I’ll mention it because Kobe did lead the league in PTS for the second time in his career with 31.6. Dirk wins this MVP and absolutely deserved it, while Kobe finished third. Dirk led Kobe in PER, WS, WS/48, and VORP that season. He also did something that’s only been done about a dozen times in NBA history with shooting percentages of 50-40-90. Oh and his team was first in the conference at 67-15, while the Lakers snuck into the playoffs at 42-40.

In my opinion, Kobe is just outside the top 10 all-time. But that doesn’t mean he deserved more than the one MVP he got. Not including the one he did win, Kobe probably had three or four other season that were MVP caliber. Unfortunately, they took place in seasons in which there were other players who were more deserving. The Lakers low win totals in those seasons prevented him from getting votes as well.

One of the better reads I've had on here. Well played Sir.

[imbluestreak23]

Originally Posted by pcptrade

LOL, I feel its the other way around with you and another guy. You both keep following me and quoting my messages. I accused you and few others of pumping first and you guys came back at me which backfired

EDIT: Talking about humility, did you not get slapped by Houdini on the topic "It pays to be a nice person" in one of your threads? Again, gotta love the hypocrisy!

You’ve got a really bad memory. But I do recall you being called out for your pump and dump nature numerous times. You magically show up in player threads post a bunch of pics, dump em and disappear. On to the next. All while boasting about how much you made or rolled into the next purchase. Good for you. You should start a YT channel! For that, you are the GOAT on thy pump! But you seem to not take kindly to criticism of your holdings, especially when they are politically decisive.

Which takes us back to the original point you made about LeBron and people being “mad” about missing the boat. It’s probably best that you don’t make accusations, which are wrong, and assumptions about collectors on the pretense that they aren’t buying cards because of faulty market analysis, which is what your insinuating. 1) that makes you look like a huge bag of dicks. 2) your wrong 3) it shows your insecurity about your own investment, which you clearly take pride in given that you plaster it all over BO including your “cost basis” and valuations (more power to you). If your that insecure about yourself and your investments that you have to get so defensive when someone goes after your poor LeFraud, you’ve got some problems and that speaks more about who you are.

[callou2131]

Originally Posted by MaoAsadaStan

Kobe was really a rich man's Allen Iverson. An inefficient volume shooter with leadership qualities.

Quitting on your team in the playoffs to prove a point to your coach, and shame the rest of your team is not a good leadership quality.

[pcptrade]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

You’ve got a really bad memory. But I do recall you being called out for your pump and dump nature numerous times. You magically show up in player threads post a bunch of pics, dump em and disappear. On to the next. All while boasting about how much you made or rolled into the next purchase. Good for you. You should start a YT channel! For that, you are the GOAT on thy pump! But you seem to not take kindly to criticism of your holdings, especially when they are politically decisive.

Which takes us back to the original point you made about LeBron and people being “mad” about missing the boat. It’s probably best that you don’t make accusations, which are wrong, and assumptions about collectors on the pretense that they aren’t buying cards because of faulty market analysis, which is what your insinuating. 1) that makes you look like a huge bag of dicks. 2) your wrong 3) it shows your insecurity about your own investment, which you clearly take pride in given that you plaster it all over BO including your “cost basis” and valuations (more power to you). If your that insecure about yourself and your investments that you have to get so defensive when someone goes after your poor LeFraud, you’ve got some problems and that speaks more about who you are.

Looks like your memory is bad. You and few others had hundreds of copies of Mahomes Optic (your posts and social media proves that) and were pumping them last year which I pointed out. So you and the other guy got defensive and attacked me for talking about the scarcity of XRC base (a four figure card) and I owned less than 10 copies of it. A Gold version of the same card sold for 192K at Heritage later proving your accusations were wrong. I own cards of Tatum, Giannis, Trout, Acuna, Soto, Ohtani cards but I rarely post in their threads. The last time I posted in Tatum, Giannis, Trout, Acuna and Soto thread was more than a year ago but I still have some of their cards. I have openly disclosed my strategy here when I started collecting in 2018, which is to buy multiples of scarce and rare parallels, sell some for profit and keep some. Perhaps I should have sent you a memo. Regarding Lebron, you can read my posts where I clearly said what he did (tweet) was stupid and wrong. I hope he will learn a lesson and if he does not, he deserves more criticism. He is not an evil person imo and I also tend to focus on the good things (charity and donations) he has done to the society. Again, its funny that you advice others on humility when you yourself got b***h slapped by Houdini and others on the same topic in one of your sale threads. I was just pointing out your hypocrisy and that too only after you quoted my message first in this thread. I will stop it here since I do not want to derail the thread.

EDIT: I mentioned my cost basis because you said sarcastically that I joined the Lebron boat only three years ago to which someone else replied that three years is like a decade given how much the prices have gone up.

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

Didn't you join the boat like 3 years ago?

Regarding your claim "You magically show up in player threads post a bunch of pics, dump em and disappear."

Look at the sold/to be sold cards below and show me my posts where I was pumping these cards of Lebron, Kobe, Jordan, Tatum, Luka, Giannis etc? In fact, I was saying Jordan 1986 Fleer prices are due for a correction even though I added one in December. If you see my posts in Luka's autograph thread, I was skeptical of his lulu auto even though I owned his RC Autos, which is one of the reasons I sold them. I sold few Kobe Autograph cards recently and still own few more but I have never shared my Kobe cards here.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/144335...16954741/page1

Also, I have openly said here that I am in the process of selling almost 300 cards by July because I feel we are due for a correction in the next few years. If I was looking to pump and dump them, I would be saying that the market still has more upside to maximize my returns instead of saying that we are due for a correction. If you look at my "Advice on consolidating my PC" thread, I have mentioned that my plan is to sell most of my Lebron (low to mid end), Tatum, Giannis, Acuna, Soto, Trout, Ohtani etc to become cost neutral and likely reinvest into Brady and vintage. I have been buying Brady cards lately and my plan is to sell some of the multiples in the future as I have already mentioned in that thread. So if I post my recent Brady pick ups and sell the multiples in the future, does that mean I am dumping and disappearing even though I am going to hold on to one of each RC parallel?

[SupermanBrandon]

this is fun!

[GOATcards]

someone hijacked my thread to be jealous, insecure and hateful, yay

[bdoody42]

Originally Posted by Kefka891

Stats show taking Kobe in the finals is likely to make you win, LeBron is likely to lead you to a loss. You’re insane by definition.

Kobe was only the leader of two teams that won the title. He was second fiddle on three of his rings. A great player but hasn’t had a better career than Lebron. I would say Kobe is somewhere between 7-12 all time IMO;

[WalterAZ31]

what a refreshing new topic

[rogueriver]

MVP voting is a joke otherwise MJ would have like 8 same for Lebrun and Kobe. When they played honestly there were none better. They spread out the love to other players kind of like a participation trophy

[MavsRChamps]

Comparing player's - particularly when they play different positions and/or for specific years - is generally a fools game. Nobody here analyzed and watched every game from each MVP candidate for the years that are being discussed in this thread. I guarantee that, so all the debate is about is "numbers". As a die hard Mavs fan during Dirks 2006-07 year, I watched every second of his play but I can't compare against other guys that year since I didn't watch every second of those games from other players. For Dirk, his #'s don't show the story at all that year. From a team perspective - The Mavericks went 67-15 EVEN AFTER STARTING THE SEASON 0-4. That is unheard of. He was the only all-star not incl. Josh Howard who was an injury replacement. His minutes were also down due to 4th quarter blowouts. Dirk is the type of guy if his team is up 10 in the 3rd quarter, he'll defer to his teammates to help build their confidence the remainder of the game and if the other team comes back then he'll "turn it on" with a few key buckets - so he'll never be a guy with gaudy numbers for that reason. He didn't play for high volume numbers. You can't judge Dirk's impact that year from stats alone so it's pointless to compare.

Kobe was legendary. You could argue he was better/worse than a number of guys including Duncan, Dirk, Shaq, etc. for specific years and it's impossible to be certain of either or because like I said they are all different players who were asked to do different things for their team. It's not a 1 on 1 basketball game.

I would say the MVP award over the years has proven to be heavily biased to team with Top 5 records, typically the best or 2nd best record, so very hard for any player not on an elite team to have a shot.

[dunkindutchmen]

Originally Posted by MaoAsadaStan

Kobe was really a rich man's Allen Iverson. An inefficient volume shooter with leadership qualities.

Kobe had the same career TS% as Tim Duncan..... far far higher than Allen Iverson. Try again....

[dunkindutchmen]

Originally Posted by bdoody42

That’s an opinion not many share. I’m not a fan of Lebron really, but no way I’m taking Kobe over him.

You couldn't be more wrong. The media narrative is and has been Lebron over Kobe. Inside the basketball community, It's Kobe over Lebron all day. Kevin Durant is on record, Dirk is on record, Stephen Jackson is on record, and many others.

[pete2345]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

You’ve got a really bad memory. But I do recall you being called out for your pump and dump nature numerous times. You magically show up in player threads post a bunch of pics, dump em and disappear. On to the next. All while boasting about how much you made or rolled into the next purchase. Good for you. You should start a YT channel! For that, you are the GOAT on thy pump! But you seem to not take kindly to criticism of your holdings, especially when they are politically decisive.

Which takes us back to the original point you made about LeBron and people being “mad” about missing the boat. It’s probably best that you don’t make accusations, which are wrong, and assumptions about collectors on the pretense that they aren’t buying cards because of faulty market analysis, which is what your insinuating. 1) that makes you look like a huge bag of dicks. 2) your wrong 3) it shows your insecurity about your own investment, which you clearly take pride in given that you plaster it all over BO including your “cost basis” and valuations (more power to you). If your that insecure about yourself and your investments that you have to get so defensive when someone goes after your poor LeFraud, you’ve got some problems and that speaks more about who you are.

Well said and so true! PCP does have an impressive collection. But he constantly needs to pump it up. He did the same thing in the baseball section with Acuna and Soto. Pump pump pump and then dumped. Nothing wrong with that, but he comes off very boastful.
I'm sure he's insufferable in the real world. Reminds me of Jjudas- haven't seen him around lately- probably on to his next pump and dump scheme.

[Brent72]

People who don't have Kobe in the Top 10 of all-time players must have been watching a game other than basketball because there's no way he's not on that list. It's not even worthy of debate as far as I'm concerned.

[k13]

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

So how many more championships did Gasol lead a team to after kobe? since he is the reason for the championships? How many championships did he lead a team to before Kobe?

How many championships did Kobe win without them?

The only facts are...Kobe was horrible in majority of the finals.

People view him as a clutch game winning player but he's actually the opposite.

Game on the line... I want Kobe taking it if I'm the defense.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by k13

Game on the line... I want Lebron taking it if I'm the defense.

Fixed it for you

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by Brent72

People who don't have Kobe in the Top 10 of all-time players must have been watching a game other than basketball because there's no way he's not on that list. It's not even worthy of debate as far as I'm concerned.

As I said in my earlier analysis, Kobe ranks high in two key categories, career MVP Award Shares (basically tied for 7th) and in Finals MVPs (tied w/Bird and Kareem in the top 6 after MJ, Bron, Magic, Shaq, Duncan [and Wilt and Russell were hardly eligible]). He's top 6 in career Playoff VORP [among those eligible under the stat, 1973-onward]. He's totally in select company with only legends.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by k13

How many championships did Kobe win without them?

The only facts are...Kobe was horrible in majority of the finals.

Kobe was Finals MVP in two of them, so you're saying he was horrible in the rest. Huh.

[pcptrade]

Originally Posted by pete2345

Well said and so true! PCP does have an impressive collection. But he constantly needs to pump it up. He did the same thing in the baseball section with Acuna and Soto. Pump pump pump and then dumped. Nothing wrong with that, but he comes off very boastful.
I'm sure he's insufferable in the real world. Reminds me of Jjudas- haven't seen him around lately- probably on to his next pump and dump scheme.

I am not surprised you showed up. Did you mean jjeanius (not jjudas), a trout super-collector, who you were after and was mocked by everyone there? I have not posted in Trout, Acuna and Soto thread for more than a year but their card prices have gone up two to three times since then and I am still holding on to my high end Trout, Acuna and Soto. So who is pumping? Is everyone posting their pickups pumping? Were you not pumping Acuna and Soto cards while dumping them at the same time based on your sale threads?

Looks like you are the one who is insufferable in real world based on some of the comments by others on you below. These are from different BO members BTW....

-I can’t imagine what it must be like to have so much pent up anger and resentment at the world that you feel the need to troll message boards just to try and antagonize people.

-Seems like a miserable way to live. I feel sorry for you.

-Personally, I don't think pete and *** should be here anymore. Their only goal in practically every thread they enter is to troll and agitate everyone else. They add nothing to the forum.

-It would be an amazing day if both of you were to be banned. Your comments add no value to any discussion.

-Why'd you come in here weirdo?

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...43779&page=361

It continues for more than 15 pages and there are also other threads where others say the same thing about you. Again, those comments are are from different members and none of those comments are mine

[GOATcards]

hijack the thread, don't hijack, do whatever you like, just keep the thread active is all I care

[CubKings]

Love all the talk about Kobe being 2nd to Shaq for his first three...


But LeBron has only made one Finals outside of all 3 of his Superteam attempts...

" Kobe needed Shaq" "Kobe needed Gasol " blah blah.

But LeBron needed Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie, AD etc. and still lost most of them.

I really don't understand the LeBron love fest. Especially when the same excuses are used to try and tear down other greats.

[sebreg]

Any teams that won multiple chips had stacked teams. That's just the way it is. All great stars needed great supporting casts.