James Harden will be the GOAT before hes done

[k13]

Originally Posted by mbuch21

At some point, there needs to be a UN assembly to get international recognition of the fact that the word GOAT can ONLY be used for:
Jordan
Gretzky
Brady

Period. Any subsequent additions need overwhelming global consent.

We can have some other acronym for Really
unbelievable and dominant in their generation for guys like Woods, Lebron, Jerry Rice, Federer or Phelps.

And we can have a Veterans category for the likes of Babe Ruth and Babe Didrikson Zaharias.

But GOAT only gets the three names mentioned above.

Brady and Jordan are not real Goats either.
Jerry rice is more of a goat than brady.
Same with wilt over jordan.

The only true goats are :
Gretzky
Wilt
Bonds
Rice

All unbreakable records.

[Dereth]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

With what team and teammates did he get most of his rings, and what competition did he have in the MVP dept? How did Bron end up with more All-NBA First Team selections, and in a league with more players competing for the top awards/selections?

Kareem was second team All-NBA in 1969-70 as a rookie, and then ran off four first teams in a row before missing most of a season with an injury. He then ran off two more in a row before being second team twice, finishing behind:

Bill Walton (HOF) 1977-78
Moses Malone (HOF) 1978-79, 1981-82, 1982-83, 1984-85
Hakeem Olajuwon (HOF) 1986-87, 1987-88, 1988-89

So to answer your question, Kareem only missed on first team to a future HOFer, and often only when that player was winning a championship, or after Kareem got old. You also have to keep in mind that there is only one "center" on each All-NBA team and there are two "forwards" since they don't make a distinction between SF and PF.

Your point about what team that Kareem played for is irrelevant. He played for two teams in his career, starting in Milwaukee and being traded to the Lakers. He didn't manipulate free agency to put himself in position to win titles, and actually won one in Milwaukee before he left.

[Keyser Soze]

Originally Posted by Siberian13

You left out all those championships he has.

No, he named them all.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by Dereth

Kareem was second team All-NBA in 1969-70 as a rookie, and then ran off four first teams in a row before missing most of a season with an injury. He then ran off two more in a row before being second team twice, finishing behind:

Bill Walton (HOF) 1977-78
Moses Malone (HOF) 1978-79, 1981-82, 1982-83, 1984-85
Hakeem Olajuwon (HOF) 1986-87, 1987-88, 1988-89

So to answer your question, Kareem only missed on first team to a future HOFer, and often only when that player was winning a championship, or after Kareem got old. You also have to keep in mind that there is only one "center" on each All-NBA team and there are two "forwards" since they don't make a distinction between SF and PF.

Your point about what team that Kareem played for is irrelevant. He played for two teams in his career, starting in Milwaukee and being traded to the Lakers. He didn't manipulate free agency to put himself in position to win titles, and actually won one in Milwaukee before he left.

That's an extremely impressive career, arguably putting him in the top 5 all-time, but I don't see the case for GOAT. He has to be compared to other extremely impressive careers and shown to be superior to those ones.

[Zacy87]

Originally Posted by k13

Brady and Jordan are not real Goats either.
Jerry rice is more of a goat than brady.
Same with wilt over jordan.

The only true goats are :
Gretzky
Wilt
Bonds
Rice

All unbreakable records.

Unbreakable records don't make you a goat. Times change, rules change and competition changes.

Gretzky is the only one that belongs on your list above. Bonds would be the GOAT if not for the PEDs. Rice is not held in higher regards than Brady and very few consider Wilt to be the GOAT.

[Dereth]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

That's an extremely impressive career, arguably putting him in the top 5 all-time, but I don't see the case for GOAT. He has to be compared to other extremely impressive careers and shown to be superior to those ones.

IMO, Kareem is a clear #2 behind Jordan, and that is coming from a Kareem hater.

If you don't see the case for GOAT from Kareem's achievements, particularly compared to LeBron, then your bias is showing.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by k13

Brady and Jordan are not real Goats either.
Jerry rice is more of a goat than brady.
Same with wilt over jordan.

The only true goats are :
Gretzky
Wilt
Bonds
Rice

All unbreakable records.

I see you pumping Bonds over in the baseball forum as well, but everyone knows the issues with Bonds records.

He was on his way to being the first and by far only 500 HR / 500 SB player, he had already won 3 MVP awards, and statistically there is an argument that he was already a top [very small number, maybe 3] player of all time after era/timeline adjustments, before he hulked up and put up statistically improbable numbers (e.g., averaging roughly .800 SLG over 4 seasons) for the modern era. Because both statistically (even making era adjustments etc.) and because of a dual career of pitching as well as batting, Ruth is the presumptive GOAT and citing Bonds record-book numbers isn't going to overcome that.

I'm assuming user Tallboy could take apart whatever case for Wilt you try to make. Obviously no one in the modern game is going to put up 50 PPG over a season so you know you have to make cross-era adjustments. Wilt is still second behind Russell in his own era when it came to MVP vote/point support (the link for that measure is in my .sig), and is in the bottom of the top-ten all-time in a closely-bunched group with Mailman, Shaq, Kobe and Duncan.

The argument for Rice as football GOAT I assume has to rest on his being far out ahead of everyone else as a WR. But you then have to make a case that WR as a position can or does bring as much value as QB. In terms of value-measurements of approximate value, though, he's behind Brady, Manning, Brees and Woodson: https://www.pro-football-reference.c..._av_career.htm

I'm guessing your trolling for gits and shiggles and that's fine because then it provides the opportunity to refute the sophistry in useful or entertaining ways.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by Dereth

IMO, Kareem is a clear #2 behind Jordan, and that is coming from a Kareem hater.

If you don't see the case for GOAT from Kareem's achievements, particularly compared to LeBron, then your bias is showing.

I don't see the case having been made, mainly just assertions and not doing full proper comparisons. I've got links in my .sig indicating that however strong the case is for Kareem, the case for MJ and LBJ are stronger.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by Dereth

Bill Walton (HOF) 1977-78
Moses Malone (HOF) 1978-79, 1981-82, 1982-83, 1984-85
Hakeem Olajuwon (HOF) 1986-87, 1987-88, 1988-89
[...]
You also have to keep in mind that there is only one "center" on each All-NBA team and there are two "forwards" since they don't make a distinction between SF and PF.

Those are also seasons in 3 of which Moses won the MVP award, so it doesn't look like there being only 1 center on the All-NBA teams makes a real difference here.

[omega145]

"GOAT" seems to be over used a lot lately. I was talking to someone on IG a few months back and he kept calling every baseball HOF a "GOAT". It's as if people don't realize that GOAT means Greatest of All Time.

[katho]

Jimmy the goat Harden Is back...The Nets go undefeated from here on in

[Durant288]

All sports have evolved so much, that the old players would have no chance, and the breadth of the sport is so much stronger, bench players and number 3-5 are so much stronger/better now

doubt anybody wins 6 titles nowadays because competition is so much stronger now

so 3-4 titles now is equal to 5-6 back then

this is something you see in a lot of sports

did you see some of the defense jordan was up against

game may have been more physical, but skill-wise players are better now

even lebron vs his younger self, so much better, so why would players 10-20 years ago have a chance

i understand the talent aspect and the grace with which you play

but imagine westbrook harden lebron in jordans era, the old timers would have no chance

the best one can do in terms of comparisons is talk their "career", but what if those 5-6 titles would be the equivalent of 2-3 in modern sports, where competition is just so much tougher (this is a fact)

[Springerj23]

Lots of youth evident in this topic....

[ballhawkdawk]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

He was on his way to being the first and by far only 500 HR / 500 SB player, he had already won 3 MVP awards, and statistically there is an argument that he was already a top [very small number, maybe 3] player of all time after era/timeline adjustments, before he hulked up and put up statistically improbable numbers (e.g., averaging roughly .800 SLG over 4 seasons) for the modern era. Because both statistically (even making era adjustments etc.) and because of a dual career of pitching as well as batting, Ruth is the presumptive GOAT and citing Bonds record-book numbers isn't going to overcome that.

Ruth? The guy whose only competition was other white guys from North America?

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by Durant288

All sports have evolved so much, that the old players would have no chance, and the breadth of the sport is so much stronger, bench players and number 3-5 are so much stronger/better now

doubt anybody wins 6 titles nowadays because competition is so much stronger now

so 3-4 titles now is equal to 5-6 back then

this is something you see in a lot of sports

did you see some of the defense jordan was up against

game may have been more physical, but skill-wise players are better now

even lebron vs his younger self, so much better, so why would players 10-20 years ago have a chance

i understand the talent aspect and the grace with which you play

but imagine westbrook harden lebron in jordans era, the old timers would have no chance

the best one can do in terms of comparisons is talk their "career", but what if those 5-6 titles would be the equivalent of 2-3 in modern sports, where competition is just so much tougher (this is a fact)

Oh boy....

[spurs50fan]

Originally Posted by Durant288

All sports have evolved so much, that the old players would have no chance, and the breadth of the sport is so much stronger, bench players and number 3-5 are so much stronger/better now

doubt anybody wins 6 titles nowadays because competition is so much stronger now

so 3-4 titles now is equal to 5-6 back then

this is something you see in a lot of sports

did you see some of the defense jordan was up against

game may have been more physical, but skill-wise players are better now

even lebron vs his younger self, so much better, so why would players 10-20 years ago have a chance

i understand the talent aspect and the grace with which you play

but imagine westbrook harden lebron in jordans era, the old timers would have no chance

the best one can do in terms of comparisons is talk their "career", but what if those 5-6 titles would be the equivalent of 2-3 in modern sports, where competition is just so much tougher (this is a fact)

Competition is tougher and more players are skilled…true. But then your average contender looks like an All Star game. At least 2-3 top ten players on one team. With a bench of former top picks or all stars. Which, in reality, makes what you describe as 3-4 title equivalent, easier to attain. Actually quicker to attain. The biggest obstacle really is free agency.

It’s also why comparing eras is pointless. No one knows and what happens most times is the nod goes to now because few of us have the perspective. For example, the triple double being elusive is no longer a thing. But we use it as an advantage between eras. You can take Westbrook out of the equation and it’s still prominent. Is it because players are better or that the game has encouraged free movement, open lanes, less contact, faster pace? Or both? No one knows or ever will tbh

[drobfan8]

LeBron is not a better player now than when he was with the Heat.

Sure he had Wade and Bosh, but if he had a match up nightmare like AD on his team when he was in his prime he really would have won not 5, not 6, more.

The thing that bugs me about the whole "players are better now" is that, if those older players were bron in to this current era they'd be better too. And if the Harden's, Bron's and others were bron in 1960, they would not be as good. You can only learn from the players and teams before you.

You can't teach what the best players of all time had.

Is Bird as skilled as Harden? Of course not. Was he a better player and winner? God yes.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by rhigh2390

Oh boy....

I love their use of fact. And every one keeps telling me how good the defense is now and every time I turn a game on I see one pass and a step through layup or drive and kick 3 and then it’s 135-128. I must be missing something.

[Springerj23]

Defense these days is soft as Charmin. Jordan would easily average 40/game with 15 FTAs per game.

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by k13

Brady and Jordan are not real Goats either.
Jerry rice is more of a goat than brady.
Same with wilt over jordan.

The only true goats are :
Gretzky
Wilt
Bonds
Rice

All unbreakable records.

You lost all credibility when you put bonds on this list.

[gomiamigo]

Originally Posted by Springerj23

Defense these days is soft as Charmin. Jordan would easily average 40/game with 15 FTAs per game.

AI might avg 50 and 25 FTs a game with wide open lanes due to 4/5-out and no hand-checking.

We already know MJ couldn't guard him solo.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by gomiamigo

AI might avg 50 and 25 FTs a game with wide open lanes due to 4/5-out and no hand-checking.

We already know MJ couldn't guard him solo.

Dude shot 11-28 one year in his prime per game. So everyone who guarded him was doing ok. Or he was helping them. One of the two.

But if you mean there’s a highlight of him crossing Jordan over then yep. True

[cardsin47]

Originally Posted by katho

Ive been watching Harden for quite a while and no one in the Hobby seems to respect him...This guy is truly amazing with what he can do in a game...He just plays so effortlessly

Great yes / Goat - not even in the conversation except this thread

[JMG318]

Originally Posted by k13

Brady and Jordan are not real Goats either.
Jerry rice is more of a goat than brady.
Same with wilt over jordan.

The only true goats are :
Gretzky
Wilt
Bonds
Rice

All unbreakable records.

Yeah a WR who played wit multiple HOF Qbs throwing to him who also used stickum is the GOAT of the NFL because he played for 20 years adding meaningless stats the last 6 years of his career. Makes sense. You think a QB is touching Bradys rings? laughable.

[ballhawkdawk]

Originally Posted by blackbears86

You lost all credibility when you put bonds on this list.

Cuz of the roids... right? Because there hasn't been a more dominant big four athlete since Wilt. Bonds is in that stratosphere of stupid, incomprehensible ability above his peers.