NBA Top Shot - High Risk, High Reward?

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by boxbuster7

Derrick Jones Jr., really?

Haha..

I know all the challenge rewards can't be LeBron and Giannis... but damn

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by boxbuster7

Derrick Jones Jr., really?

I think I saw the next couple are Hamidou Diallo, Anfernee Simons and Donovan Mitchell. Not sure if there are any more but it looks like all the recent Slam Dunk Champions.

Not only were those packs brutal for $149, the rewards are just as bad lol.

https://twitter.com/TheFirstMint/sta...44624866009090

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by gomiamigo

Others have done the research, not me, but you can look at the transactions for yourself. That's the whole point of the blockchain, you certainly don't have to take my word for it, go look up all the sales by many of the biggest holders for yourself.

As someone else said, good for them, they passed the bag onto a Greater Fool and put big profits in their pocket. I just think it's funny that, unlike liquidating a stock position, your sales are public viewing to everyone in this market who cares to see.

I'm certainly not telling anyone not to have fun by spending a few hundred on NFTs. As long as you can afford to lose it! And congrats to those who got in very early.

Are you talking about cardboard? I read somewhere that people are selling what would normally be $125 Prizm boxes for like $2000 and if that's not enough, $1200 Flawless boxes for $5k-$10K each. Oh wait, my bad, cards have been around since they were a nickel a pack...never mind.

[pyrexswerve]

Originally Posted by boxbuster7

Derrick Jones Jr., really?

I'm saying....

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

I think I saw the next couple are Hamidou Diallo, Anfernee Simons and Donovan Mitchell. Not sure if there are any more but it looks like all the recent Slam Dunk Champions.

Not only were those packs brutal for $149, the rewards are just as bad lol.

https://twitter.com/TheFirstMint/sta...44624866009090

I could almost see that if they moments were dunks from the competition.

But they are not.

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by tjforce

I could almost see that if they moments were dunks from the competition.

But they are not.

That would've made some sense.

[rifleman69]

Originally Posted by tjforce

I could almost see that if they moments were dunks from the competition.

But they are not.

Are any moments from 2018-19 or earlier? Might be something with the media contract.

[auburn35]

Not sure if this has been talked about but NBA Top Shot (Dapper Labs) were hit with a Class Action lawsuit a couple days ago.

Here's a couple links to some coverage, as well as a short recap from the the complaint.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/andreat...h=41fe9209df3d
https://www.sportico.com/law/analysi...it-1234629839/


"In the lawsuit, Dapper is portrayed as unlawfully devising a deceptive marketplace for the sale of NFTs that feature LeBron James dunks and other attention-grabbing NBA highlights. An owner of a Moment, the complaint asserts, “does not acquire any intellectual property rights or rights to the underlying NBA highlight.” Meanwhile, the complaint charges, Dapper exploits investors by selling digital packs of Moments with pricing based on scarcity—with investors having to “wait in a virtual queue” to buy."

"Dapper is also accused of “preventing investors from withdrawing their funds for months on end,” thereby “propping up the market for Moments as well as the overall valuation of NBA Top Shot.” Similarly, the company is depicted as highly restrictive in the sale of Moments, with owners relegated to selling on a secondary market where Dapper receives a 5% transaction fee."

[ninjacookies]

Wen compensation?

[SupermanBrandon]

Soooo...how’s it going in TopShot world today?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by auburn35

"In the lawsuit, Dapper is portrayed as unlawfully devising a deceptive marketplace for the sale of NFTs that feature LeBron James dunks and other attention-grabbing NBA highlights. An owner of a Moment, the complaint asserts, “does not acquire any intellectual property rights or rights to the underlying NBA highlight.”

If this wins, I want intellectual property rights of all my cardboard. This part will go nowhere.

Originally Posted by auburn35

Meanwhile, the complaint charges, Dapper exploits investors by selling digital packs of Moments with pricing based on scarcity—with investors having to “wait in a virtual queue” to buy."

No different than what Target and Walmart does making people join a virtual line and limiting purchases due to demand. As far as pricing, I'll join the class action towards Panini and their Flawless brand since we're talking pricing due to scarcity.

Originally Posted by auburn35

"Dapper is also accused of “preventing investors from withdrawing their funds for months on end,” thereby “propping up the market for Moments as well as the overall valuation of NBA Top Shot.”

They need to fix this issue and seems they are. I'm also not a fan of limiting transfer amounts out of Dapper.

Originally Posted by auburn35

Similarly, the company is depicted as highly restrictive in the sale of Moments, with owners relegated to selling on a secondary market where Dapper receives a 5% transaction fee."

The premise of the Marketplace was to provide an easy way of buying/selling Moments. Yes, they get a 5% cut. However, there are many instances of people buying and selling Moments on other platforms(Heritage/Goldin/eBay/IG/Blowout, etc.) and simply using the gift function where there is no fee.

[abidtsteele]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

The premise of the Marketplace was to provide an easy way of buying/selling Moments. Yes, they get a 5% cut. However, there are many instances of people buying and selling Moments on other platforms(Heritage/Goldin/eBay/IG/Blowout, etc.) and simply using the gift function where there is no fee.

I know that they at least threatened to ban users that made sales off of their marketplace. Probably doesn't help them

[b2k1121]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Not sure if this has been talked about but NBA Top Shot (Dapper Labs) were hit with a Class Action lawsuit a couple days ago.

Here's a couple links to some coverage, as well as a short recap from the the complaint.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/andreat...h=41fe9209df3d
https://www.sportico.com/law/analysi...it-1234629839/


"In the lawsuit, Dapper is portrayed as unlawfully devising a deceptive marketplace for the sale of NFTs that feature LeBron James dunks and other attention-grabbing NBA highlights. An owner of a Moment, the complaint asserts, “does not acquire any intellectual property rights or rights to the underlying NBA highlight.” Meanwhile, the complaint charges, Dapper exploits investors by selling digital packs of Moments with pricing based on scarcity—with investors having to “wait in a virtual queue” to buy."

"Dapper is also accused of “preventing investors from withdrawing their funds for months on end,” thereby “propping up the market for Moments as well as the overall valuation of NBA Top Shot.” Similarly, the company is depicted as highly restrictive in the sale of Moments, with owners relegated to selling on a secondary market where Dapper receives a 5% transaction fee."

Looks like Rifleman has been pretty busy

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by abidtsteele

I know that they at least threatened to ban users that made sales off of their marketplace. Probably doesn't help them

Was that in a blog? I would imagine there would be a policy in place or something in the Terms of Use( I may have missed it).

The Marketplace Code of Conduct says this:

First and foremost, we strongly urge collectors to transact inside of the Marketplace for safety and simplicity. The Dapper Labs team can’t help you if you transact outside of the Marketplace.

That implies that its acceptable.

[drobfan8]

Yeah only things I've been disappointed in recently was getting the $20 free dapper only to be robbed of $50 too much on the Dunk set pack.

And the challenge rewards are not impressive at all.

The reward needs to be something special. Come on TS.

Lame.

[ovrcollect]

If you've been paying attention, Dapper has manipulated the market and moved the goalposts many times since January (when I joined and was pulling the /7500 out of packs all day.) I can remember one particular evening where people weren't able to list moments for about 4 hours. It caused all the stars to jump about 100-200% in that span, and they haven't been that low since. In those days, when the site was trying to catch up with traffic, it was usually the listing that broke first, and if you were holding or buying early, you made out like a bandit. When packs dropped and the undercutting got crazy, they would just go into maintenance until 11pm-midnight (I guess like a "halt?")

I benefitted off of nights like that and the "low ask glitch" that was pretty prevalent during that time as well, so I can't really complain, but at a certain point I started to realize that my account value was growing primarily from the site being broken. It's possible the early user base relied on Dapper to keep the market afloat, but as more and more users joined, and they actually could fix their site, they just couldn't keep moment prices sky high and still expect new users to hop in.

I agree with the suit 100% that it's bs you can only buy or sell them on their marketplace, and the cooldowns implemented are incredibly manipulative as well.

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Was that in a blog? I would imagine there would be a policy in place or something in the Terms of Use( I may have missed it).

Their Discord moderators/refs have made it clear there have been many bans over paypal transactions and suspicious moment purchases. Here's an example:



Sure, you could make the argument that selling your Dapper balance is against their TOS (I recall seeing a few members here make the offer,) but they're also saying you're not free to sell or buy moments at your own price. If they don't agree with your selling or buying price, I guess you're open to a ban. It also makes it clear that Dapper Balance is not yours until you've withdrawn. Banned users do not get access to their moments or balance - only a refund of what they put into the site. Perhaps that's another reason people are getting out.

Current status of my own account is I've withdrawn about 80% of what I've made and am letting the rest ride. Sitting on about 50 moments, most of which are absolute garbage because that's what they've decided they'll reward at the moment. grade is 100% right in that you have to be relatively loose with "collecting" and adjust to whatever they decide to apply value to at any given moment. Imagine what values would look like if they removed the /35k+ from challenges, took away moment requirements for packs, and didn't announce "trade tickets." We'd be stuck with a ton of moments that wouldn't even sell for a buck.

[Duvalier]

Lol looks like someone got some bad packs and is a little bitter

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Lol looks like someone got some bad packs and is a little bitter

I think for some the party is over.

TS won't miss them because they were only having fun when the $$$ were flowing in.

Still so much upside with this.

[drobfan8]

And whilst the TD moments have been an overall letdown. I'm gonna say that they are nicely valued for rares.

$60 for John Collins and that moment is epic. Alley oop off the backboard from Trae!!

Dare I say a lot of them are undervalued.

[omega145]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

I think for some the party is over.

TS won't miss them because they were only having fun when the $$$ were flowing in.

Still so much upside with this.

Agreed, the party is over for Top Shot flippers in the same way its over for them box flippers who are now upset over Target/Walmart no longer selling boxes of cards. Top Shot and the hobby will continue to live on with or without these people. The market will fall into a more stable place without these folks being around.

[CVTS33]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Not sure if this has been talked about but NBA Top Shot (Dapper Labs) were hit with a Class Action lawsuit a couple days ago.

Here's a couple links to some coverage, as well as a short recap from the the complaint.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/andreat...h=41fe9209df3d
https://www.sportico.com/law/analysi...it-1234629839/


"In the lawsuit, Dapper is portrayed as unlawfully devising a deceptive marketplace for the sale of NFTs that feature LeBron James dunks and other attention-grabbing NBA highlights. An owner of a Moment, the complaint asserts, “does not acquire any intellectual property rights or rights to the underlying NBA highlight.” Meanwhile, the complaint charges, Dapper exploits investors by selling digital packs of Moments with pricing based on scarcity—with investors having to “wait in a virtual queue” to buy."

"Dapper is also accused of “preventing investors from withdrawing their funds for months on end,” thereby “propping up the market for Moments as well as the overall valuation of NBA Top Shot.” Similarly, the company is depicted as highly restrictive in the sale of Moments, with owners relegated to selling on a secondary market where Dapper receives a 5% transaction fee."

This lawsuit will not succeed. It depends on these moments being seen as securities. This is a pretty big stretch.

For this to be true, there would need to be a reasonable expectation to profit having bought into TS and in some way Dapper would need to be promoting this as a realistic outcome. A security is a long term investment where an investor throws in his lot with the skill of the enterprise.

Roham is not your business partner. You are his customer.

Anyone who has a long term expectation to make money off TS has arrived at that conclusion through sources not directly linked to TS. Also, just taking a basic look at the structure should tell anyone that there is no long term money here. This is why Dapper is so careful to call their customers "collectors rather than "investors"; they are careful with much of their language.

(I do happen the think TS did some shady and illegal things in building their product, but they aren't rookies and were reasonably careful. The complaint does raise some valid concerns, but TS reached the level of success, able to buy good lawyers, where these concerns will be litigated out of relevance)

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by CVTS33

This lawsuit will not succeed. It depends on these moments being seen as securities. This is a pretty big stretch.

For this to be true, there would need to be a reasonable expectation to profit having bought into TS and in some way Dapper would need to be promoting this as a realistic outcome. A security is a long term investment where an investor throws in his lot with the skill of the enterprise.

Roham is not your business partner. You are his customer.

Anyone who has a long term expectation to make money off TS has arrived at that conclusion through sources not directly linked to TS. Also, just taking a basic look at the structure should tell anyone that there is no long term money here. This is why Dapper is so careful to call their customers "collectors rather than "investors"; they are careful with much of their language.

(I do happen the think TS did some shady and illegal things in building their product, but they aren't rookies and were reasonably careful. The complaint does raise some valid concerns, but TS reached the level of success, able to buy good lawyers, where these concerns will be litigated out of relevance)

Is it really that big of a stretch? With the explosion of NFTs regulators are licking their chops to get a cut anyway they can and classifying these as investment assets or securities or whatever seems like a way to do that.

Ultimately it really comes down to who spends the most money on lawyers and even then it's likely that this gets settled privately

[jcardstore]

It's kinda funny to see in that Forbes article compare this to the ICO craze of 2017 when I've been saying that for like 4 months now

[CVTS33]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

Is it really that big of a stretch? With the explosion of NFTs regulators are licking their chops to get a cut anyway they can and classifying these as investment assets or securities or whatever seems like a way to do that.

Ultimately it really comes down to who spends the most money on lawyers and even then it's likely that this gets settled privately

Dapper can't afford to settle this one. They will win in court and much of that will come down to lawyers.

In terms of a security, it is going to be hard to define a non-fungible token as a fungible asset. The issue of reasonable expectation on return is going to be pretty hard to convince anyone with any financial knowledge. They have to pin their star on the lack of knowledge of the retail investor. Proving the lack of anything is a difficult task.

Dapper has disclaimers on their website about the purposes of buying a TS moment. Are they empty words? Probably, but undeniable that they're there.

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by CVTS33

Dapper can't afford to settle this one. They will win in court and much of that will come down to lawyers.

In terms of a security, it is going to be hard to define a non-fungible token as a fungible asset. The issue of reasonable expectation on return is going to be pretty hard to convince anyone with any financial knowledge. They have to pin their star on the lack of knowledge of the retail investor. Proving the lack of anything is a difficult task.

Dapper has disclaimers on their website about the purposes of buying a TS moment. Are they empty words? Probably, but undeniable that they're there.

Probably, yea. I don't think anything in particular will come of this but it is interesting none the less.

I do think there is going to be a big push for regulation of these NFTs and regulation means classifying them as some sort of asset