Talent levels compared to past generations....

[mfw13]

So....started thinking about this after everyone started claiming that Holland getting knocked out of the Euros by the Czechs was some sort of upset.

Because in reality, it wasn't. Holland simply doesn't have a very talented player pool right now, which is why it also failed to qualify for Euro 2016 and WC 2018. In fact, when you look back at past Dutch teams, it could be argued that this is the least amount of talent Holland has had since before Cruyff....60 years ago.

Then I started looking at the rosters of some of the other "powers", and realized that the same thing is happening all over. Germany has the least amount of talent since pre-Beckenbauer, in the 1950's. Italy hasn't had a world-class, superstar level, player since Pirlo retired. Argentina hasn't produced another superstar since Messi & Aguero (now both in their 30's). Brazil's only star is Neymar, who is now almost 30.

Only France and Belgium (and possibly the US) seem to be producing new talent.

So the question is why?

My theory is that part of the problem is young players moving to big clubs too quickly (and at too young an age), and then seeing their development stagnate due to decreased playing time.

Prime examples would be De Ligt and DeJong (Holland, moved from Ajax to Juventus & Barcelona respectively) and Werner/Haavertz (Germany, both moved to Chelsea). Paul Pogba's career has certainly been hurt by his premature move to Man United a few years ago. Ousama Dembele's career died when he moved to Barcelona. Joao Felix has stagnated at Athletico Madrid due to their defensive style, and barely got on the pitch for Portgual at the Euros. And now I fear that the same thing is about to happen to Grealish (likely to move from Aston Villa to Man City) and Sancho (likely moving from Dortmund to Man United).

Thoughts?

[YayNJ]

Originally Posted by mfw13

Only France and Belgium (and possibly the US) seem to be producing new talent.

Is this a windup?

[Gin&Juice]

Interesting question. I have split thoughts. On the one hand, I agree that the emphasis of big clubs on player acquisition, rather than player development, has hurt a lot of young talent.

On the other hand, I'm not sure I agree with the premise that the talent pool is down. I actually think the opposite is true. I think there is a tremendous amount of talent in the game today and that the struggle of teams like the Netherlands and Germany is just cyclical. The Robben/Van Persie and 2014 Germany regime has ended and new cores need time to develop. I would argue that Italy is coming out of that downswing and has quite a few exciting young players. England is on the upswing. Spain is turning the corner.

[fadster]

Originally Posted by mfw13

So....started thinking about this after everyone started claiming that Holland getting knocked out of the Euros by the Czechs was some sort of upset.

Because in reality, it wasn't. Holland simply doesn't have a very talented player pool right now, which is why it also failed to qualify for Euro 2016 and WC 2018. In fact, when you look back at past Dutch teams, it could be argued that this is the least amount of talent Holland has had since before Cruyff....60 years ago.

Then I started looking at the rosters of some of the other "powers", and realized that the same thing is happening all over. Germany has the least amount of talent since pre-Beckenbauer, in the 1950's. Italy hasn't had a world-class, superstar level, player since Pirlo retired. Argentina hasn't produced another superstar since Messi & Aguero (now both in their 30's). Brazil's only star is Neymar, who is now almost 30.

Only France and Belgium (and possibly the US) seem to be producing new talent.

So the question is why?

My theory is that part of the problem is young players moving to big clubs too quickly (and at too young an age), and then seeing their development stagnate due to decreased playing time.

Prime examples would be De Ligt and DeJong (Holland, moved from Ajax to Juventus & Barcelona respectively) and Werner/Haavertz (Germany, both moved to Chelsea). Paul Pogba's career has certainly been hurt by his premature move to Man United a few years ago. Ousama Dembele's career died when he moved to Barcelona. Joao Felix has stagnated at Athletico Madrid due to their defensive style, and barely got on the pitch for Portgual at the Euros. And now I fear that the same thing is about to happen to Grealish (likely to move from Aston Villa to Man City) and Sancho (likely moving from Dortmund to Man United).

Thoughts?

I think the biggest thing is that international football has become more professional over the years and I think tactics and coaching are a much bigger factor than they used to be. A well organised, fit, harmonious and well coached team can really do some damage at the international level especially against a team less than the sum of it's parts. The top leagues are full of players from all over the world and it's raised the standards everywhere.

Also a lot of teams are in various stages of their cycle. The German team is coming to the end of theirs and are in transition but also had a manager who ran out of ideas about 5 years ago. The Dutch are at the other end, with a lot of younger players but a manager who might go down as one of the worst of all time. France are very strong and nicely in their window, Belgium have their strongest ever squad and are still just within their window whilst England are just entering theirs.

[k13]

Being good and playing good are two different things.

[psumac]

you're crazy if you think the top players from decades ago would be any challenge for the top players of today. the escalation of player performance in this age of big data has been enormous.

i think the reason we aren't seeing international superteams is just globalization. we're getting more players from different countries onto the top clubs and not necessarily from the traditional soccer powerhouses. just look at man city's roster last year (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E...rst_team_squad). they had a handful of english players but they also had brazil, belgium, portugal, ukraine, argentina, usa, ALGERIA. 50 years ago it would have been 90% british players.

your example about pogba detracts from your point because he actually moved FROM manchester united to juventus when he was 19 because he wasn't getting enough first team playing time at united. he then played 124 serie a matches in the next 4 years before transferring back.

also, jack grealish is 25 years old, which is definitely not too young for a transfer to a big club.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by psumac

i think the reason we aren't seeing international superteams is just globalization. we're getting more players from different countries onto the top clubs and not necessarily from the traditional soccer powerhouses. just look at man city's roster last year (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E...rst_team_squad). they had a handful of english players but they also had brazil, belgium, portugal, ukraine, argentina, usa, ALGERIA. 50 years ago it would have been 90% british players.

True. But how many of those players are actually developing and improving at Man City?

Gabriel Jesus' career has gone downhill since moving to the Eithad.

Ferran Torres would have been better off staying at Valencia and playing regularly.

Zach Steffen would have been better of going to a smaller club where he would have been the #1 keeper.

Werner, Haavertz, and Pulisic all have stagnated since moving to Chelsea from their smaller German clubs.

De Ligt and De Jong have struggled since leaving Ajax. So has Sergino Dest.

Joao Felix's move to Athletico Madrid has been a disaster...he should have stayed at Benfica for a few more years.

Ousama Dembele's move to Barcelona was a disaster, as was Phillipe Coutinho's.

In other words, probably 90% of the time a good young player moves to a big club, it ends up stunting their growth due to reduced playing time.

You're right that Grealish is 25, but despite his talent, he's going to get a lot less playing time at Man City than he would at Aston Villa.

[Gin&Juice]

Not sure it is fair to say that some of these guys have stagnated. Havertz found his feet towards the end of the season. Pulisic has definitely developed and been effective when he has played-- his issue is staying on the field. Valencia is a disaster, so while I would love to see Torres play more, I think he will next season (especially if they sell Silva and/or Sterling) and that the move to City will be good for him. De Jong, for better or worse, is the future of the Barca midfield. Dembele is still only 24 and has shown flashes (like Pulisic, his biggest issue is staying on the field).

Agree that big moves have hurt many guys, especially Felix. And, I think a move to Manchester United is going to hurt Sancho. But, I also think that moves sometimes just reveal the truth about a player (e.g., Werner).

[bobbycass]

I was listening to a Kevin keegan interview and he was saying that great talent is brought together too soon. They aren't staying at their local clubs long enough.

He reckons staying at your local club as you develop is necessary as you see a lot more of the ball and get to develop a lot more. Once you're sucked up by a big club you're playing with players of similar talent so the amount of time you have on the ball decreases rapidly.

Also, up until the 90s, the birth of the Premier league, every nation more or less had a huge pool of players to pick from. Now it's such a world game you've fot the whole of Africa, and to a certain extent Asia, sending players to Europe. Three decades ago it was almost unheard of for anyone from there playing in Europe.

[k13]

On paper Holland is good:

De light
ake
de vrij
blind

wijandham
klassen
de jong

depay
promes
weghorst

A few injuries Van Diijk

Hype train was building till the knock out game...
Remember they won't 3-0

[k13]

Plus how many Germans are really on the German team each year now.
Less and less.

Goes the same for other West Countries.

[bobbycass]

Originally Posted by k13

Plus how Germans are really on the German team each year now.
Less and less.

Goes the same for other West Countries.

What do you mean by this?

[MonsterTruck20]

Originally Posted by bobbycass

What do you mean by this?

Just ignore that racist.

[jpamboris]

30 years ago it used to be country before club. Now it is club before country. You will never hear any player admit this but for most international football is a hindrance to club football or a rest period between seasons.
There is simply way too much money involved in club football for it not be this way.

[bobbycass]

Originally Posted by jpamboris

30 years ago it used to be country before club. Now it is club before country. You will never hear any player admit this but for most international football is a hindrance to club football or a rest period between seasons.
There is simply way too much money involved in club football for it not be this way.

Bale.......

[bobbycass]

Originally Posted by MonsterTruck20

Just ignore that racist.

Whatever he thinks about immigration, one of the positives it does bring is a better talent pool for sports.

What's he on about? France has gotten worse because go immigration? Is he a mentalist?

[YayNJ]

Originally Posted by bobbycass

What do you mean by this?

He doesn't like anyone that isn't white. That's pretty much the long and the short of it.

If you're black in England, you aren't English, in his mind.

[YayNJ]

Originally Posted by jpamboris

30 years ago it used to be country before club. Now it is club before country. You will never hear any player admit this but for most international football is a hindrance to club football or a rest period between seasons.
There is simply way too much money involved in club football for it not be this way.

You don't know any footballers, do you. This is categorically not true. There might be a handful that can't be bothered, but you will find it's agents and clubs and the like that get in the ears of players, especially players from "minor" nations, and those playing in Europe that are from Africa - who's international tournaments clash with the European league calendars.

[jpamboris]

Originally Posted by YayNJ

You don't know any footballers, do you. This is categorically not true. There might be a handful that can't be bothered, but you will find it's agents and clubs and the like that get in the ears of players, especially players from "minor" nations, and those playing in Europe that are from Africa - who's international tournaments clash with the European league calendars.

I actually know plenty and i never said they cannot be bothered. Club Football is much more important than International Football. It's a simple fact and you are delusional if you think otherwise.
The only fans that prefer International Football are the ones that don't mind the Sport and are very patriotic to their countries.
As for footballers themselves, do you really think they will come out and say the don't care as much about playing for their countries?
When you get to that level and it is your profession, your club pays you the big $$$ and why would you want to put this at risk to play in meaningless matches.
The expectations placed on a professional footballer these days is almost criminal. It is not like it was 30 years ago where squads were 15 players or so.
If you still do not believe me, start a poll with the following question to players and fans:
IF YOU HAD TO ABOLISH ONE FOR ETERNITY WHICH WOULD YOU CHOOSE:
1. Abolish CLUB FOOTBALL
2. Abolish INTERNATIONAL FOOTBALL
Don't be naïve to think otherwise.
And i know this will get up people's noses because for the soccer card industry it's mainly about international football.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by YayNJ

You don't know any footballers, do you. This is categorically not true. There might be a handful that can't be bothered, but you will find it's agents and clubs and the like that get in the ears of players, especially players from "minor" nations, and those playing in Europe that are from Africa - who's international tournaments clash with the European league calendars.

Certainly the over-stuffed fixture calendar is an issue...by my count Mbappe has played 61 matches over the past calendar year (i.e. since July 1, 2020), for example.

But the players don't seem to be willing or able to do anything about it....there is no worldwide players union (that I'm aware of), and although there may be some country-specific ones, I haven't heard about any efforts by players to thin out the fixture calendar.

[jpamboris]

Originally Posted by bobbycass

Bale.......

Bale what? Because he said that he will always play for Wales? So what! Do you expect him to say otherwise?
The only players that may prioritise international football over club football are those playing in lower leagues and for smaller nations.

[jpamboris]

Originally Posted by mfw13

Certainly the over-stuffed fixture calendar is an issue...by my count Mbappe has played 61 matches over the past calendar year (i.e. since July 1, 2020), for example.

But the players don't seem to be willing or able to do anything about it....there is no worldwide players union (that I'm aware of), and although there may be some country-specific ones, I haven't heard about any efforts by players to thin out the fixture calendar.

No there is nothing they can do about it. There is far too much money involved. But it is a concern for a players health. So many players go away on international duty and come back injured.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by jpamboris

I actually know plenty and i never said they cannot be bothered. Club Football is much more important than International Football. It's a simple fact and you are delusional if you think otherwise.
The only fans that prefer International Football are the ones that don't mind the Sport and are very patriotic to their countries.
As for footballers themselves, do you really think they will come out and say the don't care as much about playing for their countries?
When you get to that level and it is your profession, your club pays you the big $$$ and why would you want to put this at risk to play in meaningless matches.
The expectations placed on a professional footballer these days is almost criminal. It is not like it was 30 years ago where squads were 15 players or so.
If you still do not believe me, start a poll with the following question to players and fans:
IF YOU HAD TO ABOLISH ONE FOR ETERNITY WHICH WOULD YOU CHOOSE:
1. Abolish CLUB FOOTBALL
2. Abolish INTERNATIONAL FOOTBALL
Don't be naïve to think otherwise.
And i know this will get up people's noses because for the soccer card industry it's mainly about international football.

It's not that black & white....all footballers care about playing for their countries, and all footballers care about earning paychecks from their clubs.

The problem is that more football = more $$$, so nobody objects when fixtures are added to the calendar.

For example, UEFA could come up with qualifying structures for the World Cup and the Euros that use a preliminary round to eliminate many of the small nations, but they don't, because more matches = more $$$.

They could have simply gotten rid of friendlies and allowed players to rest during those windows, but instead came up with the utterly meaningless Nations League.

[jpamboris]

Originally Posted by mfw13

It's not that black & white....all footballers care about playing for their countries, and all footballers care about earning paychecks from their clubs.

The problem is that more football = more $$$, so nobody objects when fixtures are added to the calendar.

For example, UEFA could come up with qualifying structures for the World Cup and the Euros that use a preliminary round to eliminate many of the small nations, but they don't, because more matches = more $$$.

They could have simply gotten rid of friendlies and allowed players to rest during those windows, but instead came up with the utterly meaningless Nations League.

No arguments on this. There is always a need to have International Football but there are just way too many meaningless games.
It's the same reason UEFA introduced what is it called "The National League"? Because people are losing interest in it.

[bberns]

I was watching the 2006 World Cup match between Brazil and France today. Granted, that match was stocked with HOF players, but the quality of play seemed a lot higher.